Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-walmart-tesla-solar-lawsuit/walmart-sues-tesla-over-fires-at-stores-fitted-with-its-solar-panels-idUSKCN1VA26B

by helloer • 7 years ago

248 145 7 years ago

reuters.com

PHGamer• 7 years ago

just wait till those high capacity batteries start going. we are going to see some interesting things.

Though in this case, i wonder how much is walmart and how much is tesla. knowing both telsa over-promised and walmart probably refused to pay for maintenance.

protomyth2• 7 years ago

“This is a breach of contract action arising from years of gross negligence and failure to live up to industry standards by Tesla with respect to solar panels that Tesla designed, installed, and promised to operate and maintain safely on the roofs of hundreds of Walmart stores,”

Tesla seems to be the operator and maintainer. I would expect a contract has maintenance as a flat fee per year if it is anything like other contracts of this type.

metalliqaz• 7 years ago

As alleged by Walmart.

Failure due to rushed, shoddy work is definitely Tesla's M.O., but Walmart is also not exactly the most credible source, given their history.

omfg• 7 years ago

Wasn’t this work done during the SolarCity years?

std_throwaway• 7 years ago

SolarCity is now part of Tesla.

ABeeSea• 7 years ago

When you buy a company, you also get their liabilities.

Clent• 7 years ago

I found that interesting as well. The article is trying to link solar panel failures to Tesla vehicle failures. They were not born from the same company nor process.

It seems whatever generated the story was looking for some segue into how the price is down.

The stock price was affected by the market's new knowledge. They both contain words for fire but are otherwise independent and distant events in Tesla's history.

A more likely scenario is these liabilities that Tesla acquired a couple of years ago had otherwise gone unnoticed. They have now been noticed and the market will risk the outcome of Walmart and all of these other Solar City contracts.

The potential risk of these contracts is what is weighing on Telsa's stock price, not a handful of vehicle fires.

gcbw32• 7 years ago

My friends at SolarCity never had to work 70h in a week before Tesla acquired them (nor work weekends installing solar panels on Musk mansion in L.A.)

So it might very well be the result of the same company and processes.

gamblor9564• 7 years ago

It was originally SolarCity that did the work, but SolarCity was acquired by and merged into Tesla.

The surviving entity was Tesla, so Walmart sued Tesla.

(SolarCity's debts actually represent the majority part of Tesla's debt load and is part of why Tesla has been struggling financially despite 19%+ margin on each car sold.)

dehrmann• 7 years ago

They were not born from the same company nor process

But their founders are cousins.

djanogo• 7 years ago

I assume Walmart order of Tesla trucks might also be in jeopardy considering they decided to go to court over these fires?

AndrewBissell2• 7 years ago

Probably in jeopardy because the trucks don't exist, and Tesla's capex is below its depreciation so they're unlikely to build out the plant necessary to manufacture them anytime soon.

harikb• 7 years ago

It is the pigeons I tell you! You can still see them right there in the photos!

markrote3• 7 years ago

The Walton Family also happens to own much of First Solar, a competing provider of photovoltaic cells.

camjohnson262• 7 years ago

The Walton family collectively is worth over $150 billion, it’s not surprising they have exposure to a solar company somewhere in their vast fortune. If you’re implying that this lawsuit has no merit because of that investment that seems like an incredibly shaky accusation.

grecy• 7 years ago

It's a little curious they wouldn't choose to buy panels from a company they own.... don't you think?

reitzensteinm3• 7 years ago

So are you saying they staged seven fires, or that after 7 of 240 installations caught fire they only sued because of their conflicting interests?

Tesla installed 29 MW of solar last quarter, compared to a peak of 253 MW at Solar City before the acquisition. First Solar, which isn't an apples to apples competitor since it specializes in utility scale, is on track to produce 1375 MW per quarter of panels this year.

Tesla's solar business is dead. They might turn it around with the solar roof product, but if that succeeds it will make Tesla Energy even less of a competitor to First Solar, since it has zero relevance to utility scale solar.

Even if Walmart had evil intent, why give Solar City the PR boost of hundreds of installations in the hope that they'll fail and they can later sue?

It's easy to make a nice conspiratorial quip, but there's nothing of substance here. Jumping at every shadow just numbs you for when you really should be angry.

csteubs2• 7 years ago

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. The original comment merely points out an interesting note in that both parties have their own interest in solar. You make so many specific counter-claims to a simple sentence that it seems like you're responding to the wrong comment.

dredds• 7 years ago

I wonder if Tesla moving into utility scale battery makes them a competitor or ally to solar. Both right?

meritt• 7 years ago

I'm sure they're also rampant short sellers in cahoots with Big Oil. Give me a fucking break.

Tesla has had a lot of growing pains and they'll be a better company when you guys stop dismissing every single criticism and actually hold the company and Musk accountable for their missteps.

perl4ever3• 7 years ago

Isn't the largest shareholder Vanguard, by far? My impression based on a cursory Googling is that Vanguard has about 130 million shares, whereas the largest individual shareholder, Jim Walton, only has about 10 million.

In fact all of the top 10 shareholders of Walmart have more shares (>10M) than any of the Waltons, it appears:

The Vanguard Group, Inc.

SSgA Funds Management, Inc.

BlackRock Fund Advisors

Fidelity Management & Research Co

Geode Capital Management LLC

Northern Trust Investments, Inc.

State Farm Investment Management

Wellington Management Co. LLP

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc.

Dimensional Fund Advisors LP

So maybe you should look at whatever the interests of the index fund providers are, and who runs them.

markrote3• 7 years ago

Lukas Walton owned 21% as of the start of the year, more than 3x Vanguard which owns 6.62%. I don't know about the rest of the Walton family - at one point the entire company was Walton owned - but that's nearly $1.5B owned by the company's "Significant Shareholder". I have no idea about the merits of this case but one should note that it's not uncommon for competing companies to sue each other.

heimatau5• 7 years ago

Hmm. I didn't know this but that's a solid observation.

Regardless, SolarCity probably did a poor installation job with cheap parts. They have a reputation among other Solar installers and it's not a good one.

JohnJamesRambo• 7 years ago

Are you implying they set fire to their own stores? Or that you want them to ignore the fires caused by Tesla’s panels?

outworlder3• 7 years ago

Tesla is also facing a federal field investigation by the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board after several Model X and Model S owners across the globe said their cars burst into flames

yawn

Are other automakers suffering the same investigations?

https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=812639

Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths Approximately one in eight fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire.

Car fires are nothing new. The media coverage for EVs is not proportional.

nwah1• 7 years ago

There's hundreds of times more non-EVs on the road, so the question would be the proportionate level of fires.

ryder9• 7 years ago

any figures or citations?

JumpCrisscross• 7 years ago

The media coverage for EVs is not proportional

Do we have EV car fire frequencies for comparison with ICE engines? Without denominators saying “all cats burn” is overly reductive.

outworlder3• 7 years ago

Do we have EV car fire frequencies for comparison with ICE engines? Without denominators saying “all cats burn” is overly reductive.

Fine. And yet, is Reuters reporting those? In fact, why is Reuters even talking about cars?

Tesla fires feature very prominently in the news whenever they happen. When was the last time anyone here saw news of ICE fires? I only ever see those in local news, and only if they caused other incidents (like fatalities or traffic jams).

refurb• 7 years ago

Yeah, but relatively speaking there aren't that many Tesla's on the road.

What you'd need to do is compare the number of Tesla fires (per 1000 cars) versus other new IC cars (per 1000).

outworlder3• 7 years ago

Indeed, and please share the numbers if you have them. But my complaint was centered more in the media reporting, rather than the investigation per-se.

gamblor9564• 7 years ago

No other car company claims to sell the safest car ever made.

When you make outlandish statements like that you have to expect increased scrutiny.

alfor• 7 years ago

Another Tesla bashing article by mainstream media, move along.

100s of thousand of damage, that's pocket change for Walmart and Tesla.

Model X and S burst into flame !!! Tesla stock is down 1%, Be Afraid ! Don't buy Tesla !!!

Tesla spend zero on advertising, their main source of revenue. They are also disrupting big oil and the auto industry, plenty of enemies to go around.

o_p2• 7 years ago

Teslas bursting into flames is a real risk though.

c0nfused• 7 years ago

EVs burn frequently on the internet.

Compared to the fema estimate of 171,500 highway car fires per year.

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

Tesla has contributed 14 total since 2013. I know of at least 2 other cases by others have been reported

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/22/tesla-inv...

sarcher• 7 years ago

A Journal of Light Construction editor had a fire in his SolarCity panel set-up as well, and had a hard time getting it sorted out.

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/electrical/solar-panel-fire...

and here's a follow-up: https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/electrical/solar-panel-fire...

Animats• 7 years ago

Really bad customer service.

And another follow-up.[1] The old panels get removed and the roof gets new shingles. But no new solar panels yet.

[1] https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/electrical/solar-panel-fire...

ocschwar• 7 years ago

Didn't Solar City rely on local installation firms?

rblatz• 7 years ago

Sounds like they aren’t vetting them enough, training them enough, or the panels are just hard to install properly.

onion2k• 7 years ago

Solar City could presumably sue the local installer if they're to blame, but it makes no difference to the customer who bought a product from Solar City.

sxates• 7 years ago

Anyone know details about how the solar panels resulted in fires?

the-pigeon• 7 years ago

These specific cases, no. But I used to work for a company that made solar components and fires were our biggest fear.

The most likely issue is incorrect design or installation due to the complications of DC power. This article goes into details https://iffmag.mdmpublishing.com/solar-panels-and-the-dc-dan...

Simply put DC power with enough current to power a home is much more dangerous than AC. And solar power isn't converted to AC until it gets to the inverter.

Meaning all the wiring and everything in the solar system has a ton of current going through it on a sunny day. If the system was designed incorrectly or installed incorrectly then there isn't going to be enough copper for that current to go through at some point and it's going to heat up and start a fire.

You can also have components fail and all that. But given they are blaming Solar City I'd bet on it being improper installation or inadequate design of the system for the load.

taneq• 7 years ago

Not a solar installer, but who uses thin enough DC wiring that the current rating is an issue? Every solar installation I’ve seen uses way oversized DC wiring (4-6mm^2 for 10-20A closed-circuit current) to minimise losses. You could literally just short the wiring at the inverter and it’d never overheat.

Most fire hazard comes from connectors burning out from what I’ve seen.

driverdan• 7 years ago

And solar power isn't converted to AC until it gets to the inverter.

Most solar installations now use micro-inverters at the panel. It's possible these installations predate micro-inverters.

carolina_33• 7 years ago

It’s okay, Elon has moved on. Now let’s install his 100% trusty brain probes. What could go wrong?

NetBeck• 7 years ago

totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket losses, Walmart said in the lawsuit.

This amount is immaterial for each party involved.

bredren• 7 years ago

Why would Tesla allow this to go to suit, given it’s likely press coverage? Surely there was opportunity to settle.

lucasmullens• 7 years ago

It's possible they asked for an absurd amount knowing they would want to settle.

Fins3• 7 years ago

When did Musk ever settle, if there is an opportunity to open his mouth and make things worse?

I just can see explanations coming from fanboys that Walmart sells engine oil and is therefore part of the ICE mafia out to get Tesla. And they short the stock, too! /s

GCA10• 7 years ago

In terms of corporate Walmart, absolutely. But it's annoying as can be -- and even scary -- to employees at those stores. Customers too.

Walmart's real objective with a very public suit like this is to make sure that customers and employees see Tesla/Solar City as the villain. Not America's biggest retailer.

Even tight-fisted businesses get righteous about this kind of stuff. It's a great way to win the "we care" posturing game, at least for one day.

toxican• 7 years ago

Right because destroying small town businesses, unethical employee treatment, etc. didn't push folks away, but a fire at a walmart somewhere in the country will.

raverbashing• 7 years ago

I wouldn't call a fire merely "scary", is a real risk.

Yes, I think Tesla should be more diligent here.

kryogen1c3• 7 years ago

I wonder if theres any danger of walmart being declared a vexatious litigant, since this amount is clearly nonsense. If their concern is damage from public opinion, aren't they required to quantify the damages? I don't think the court appreciates being used only as a tool for public opinion.

As is probably obvious to those with any legal knowledge, IANAL

egdod4• 7 years ago

That's not what a vexatious litigant is. Hundreds of thousands of dollars is a real loss.

porknubbins• 7 years ago

I don’t know what the standards are for that but pretty much zero chance. First their shit burned up on your roof, thats a pretty solid prima facie reason to sue IMO, even if you later lose. Second 100k+ is not nothing, federal jurisdiction only requires 75k and to my knowledge there isn’t any kind of test of the money of the plaintiff as to whether the amount matters to them.

coldtea2• 7 years ago

I wonder if theres any danger of walmart being declared a vexatious litigant, since this amount is clearly nonsense.

What amount sounds like nonsense? I'd sue someone if they stole $100 from me, or sold me $100 of bad goods and wont do anything about it, even if I make 200K!

And what part of "fires at stores" (regardless of amount) sounds comforting, legal, and acceptable?

RadioHacker• 7 years ago

This really doesn't matter. The fires endanger lives. Some things are more important than money. I should hope you'd realize that.

autokad• 7 years ago

yeah and 5 fires on just 240 stores sounds like a staggering amount

pjc50• 7 years ago

Somehow I think if this was the other way round, and Walmart had caused hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage to Tesla, the HN comments would be cheering them on and demanding they sue Walmart for every penny they had.

The fanboyism is ridiculous for grown adults.

nominated1• 7 years ago

A friend of mine is a union electrician with 15 years in the trade. He’s helped install dozens of solar farms across Northern California. One thing I found interesting/unnerving was that apparently the spacing tolerances between panels is quite low. He said it’s their biggest concern when it comes to fires.

So, maintenance seems like a must. Especially on rooftops or structures that will naturally “settle” over time. If I had to guess, these tolerances weren’t properly maintained or the buildings/roofs themselves weren’t solid enough to begin with.

If anyone can shed more light on this (pun intended)…

agumonkey• 7 years ago

lack of clearance below caused overheating and fire ?

dmead• 7 years ago

lack of clearance between panels. if a roof settles a bit after construction it might flex down reducing the space between panels. (i think)

heimatau5• 7 years ago

sarcher's example of JLC. It does look like a faulty optimizer, which is a DC electronic for each panel.

As for Walmart, it's a lot to unpack.

dozens showing hazardous problems such as loose wiring and “hot spots” on panels, according to court papers filed in New York State Supreme Court.

Loose wiring? A lot of setups are mostly plug and go. If they had to splice one wire, it's only a minute process to do and if they used their eyes for a few seconds (I'm describing the literal process of splicing a panel wire. I'm not demeaning the work. It's minutes. 3 max, if you brought the parts on the roof.) As for the other connections a solar installation may need, the time it takes it one minute for all connections on the roof. For the 244 panel setup of Walmart, 30 minutes tops (20.3 minutes to be closer to realistic because there might be 21 j-boxes, each connecting 12 panels to the main array).

Hot Spots? I have no idea about that one. It's too vague.

At a different location, this is what Walmart said: >One of the fires happened months after the system was de-energized, Walmart said.

I don't understand this one at all. Tesla/SolarCity must be using very cheap electronics because this shouldn't happen. Each panel's optimizer should be equipped for the situation when they aren't producing usable power.

Source: I worked in residential solar for about 6 months and as an electrician for two years. I'm not a bona fide source but I'm better than most because I've paid attention to everything that was taught to me. Plus I'm looking into starting my own Solar company.

londons_explore3• 7 years ago

The optimizer consists of MOSFETs, an inductor, and a microcontroller. The circuit is pretty similar to a BLDC motor controller.

The circuit relies 100% on the microcontroller outputting the right signals, otherwise a mosfet gets stuck on (causing overcurrent, and burning out). Little boxes like that are hard to waterproof and make resistant to repeated temperature fluctuations. My guess is some water went in and shorted some control signals, or repeated temperature changes caused a solder joint to crack. That caused the MOSFETs not to get the right control input, so they got really hot and caught fire.

It's just as likely to happen on a de-energised panel too - the optimizer is still connected, and the sun is still shining.

heimatau5• 7 years ago

Tesla/SolarCity must be using very cheap electronics because this shouldn't happen. Each panel's optimizer should be equipped for the situation when they aren't producing usable power.

It feels nice to see the truth come out. Cheap parts [1].

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-project-titan-replace-...

navigatesol2• 7 years ago

So many apologists on this site its hilarious. I guess Walmart is against climate change!

https://twitter.com/sama/status/1130913917864034304?s=19

At won't point will you hear something that makes you doubt this company? Anything?

oneepic• 7 years ago

If you think everyone or even most people commenting on this site are pro-Tesla, I think you're not really reading HN. Either way, the Tesla debates I see are a whole lot like people debating over petty bs like celebrity news, so I usually stay out of them.

navigatesol2• 7 years ago

If you think everyone or even most people commenting on this site are pro-Tesla

The "influencers" are, and if you don't think so you aren't paying attention. Look what they say on Twitter. I posted a link in another comment, but miraculously it disappeared.

It happened with Theranos too. People of "high reputation" on this very site claimed everything was "FUD", that if you were against the company it was because you didn't want to see a young woman succeed in Silicon Valley. Then it turned out to be a fraud. And yet these people are still reputable here, after ridiculous commentary. It says a lot about the community, unfortunately.

AndrewBissell2• 7 years ago

Buried in the lawsuit is some entertaining commentary on Tesla's SolarCity acquisition:

"On information and belief, when Tesla purchased SolarCity to bail out the flailing company (whose executives included two of Tesla CEO Elon Musk's first cousins), Tesla failed to correct SolarCity's chaotic installation processes or to adopt adequate maintenance protocols, which would have been particularly important in light of the improper installation practices."

...

"On information and belief, SolarCity's business model was ultimately a bust."

thinkcomp• 7 years ago

The actual lawsuit: https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/40v40ia2y/supreme-court-of...

jmb126862• 7 years ago

And yet, somehow TSLA is only down 1.6% in after market hour trading today (this news broke after mkt close). TSLA, appears to have irrationally exuberant investors.

A (nearly) irrelevant comparison; WMT, a profitable enterprise, is down 1.53% at mkt close today, didn't experience any negative news today, and a core aspect of their business model doesn't explode into flames.

jaimex2• 7 years ago

Probably because they dont make Solar panels anymore and the panels in question are well out of warranty.

jmb126862• 7 years ago

Ok, let's exclude solar panels. WMT's business model doesn't include extreme capacity Li-ion chemical bombs traveling at highway speeds.

To be fair, I admire and hope one day to afford a Tesla. But the risks are clear. High capacity Li-ion batteries have high risks and incident rates of explosion.

daferna• 7 years ago

Should've used microinverters, but then again, the technology wasn't mature yet at the time SolarCity was still independent.

new_realist2• 7 years ago

From Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/SolarCity/comments/9ikm8g/solarcity...

"whistleblower123456 1 point · 7 months ago If you want the truth here it is. Tesla has installed millions of defective amphenol connectors all over the u.s. These connectors are catching fire and burning down homes and businesses. They are hiding it with something called project titan where they are hiring thousands of people just to replace connectors. The problem is that they are testing it with infrared cameras to see if the connector heats up and only then replacing it. These connectors are defective meaning just because it passes one day it does not mean it wont fail the next even after testing. Tesla refuses to replace all of these connectors betting on insurance to cover any fires and only looking at homes when their monitoring platform reports arc faults. This is why they are dismantling the solar division with layoffs. Right now if you have tesla installed on your roof you may have a ticking time bomb ready to kill you in your sleep. If you have it on your business same thing. Don't believe me, google walmart fires. If you have tesla stock better prepare to sell it because when this gets out it is going to crash. They need to do the right thing and shut off all systems with these connectors and replace them with mc4. They wont because it would cost them hundreds of millions to do and hundreds of thousands of dollars on lost production. Do the right thing Tesla."

farah7• 7 years ago

Sounds like a short seller.

Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

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