HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

http://www.jeromecohen.net/jerrys-blog/hong-kongs-extradition-law

by sexy_seedbox • 7 years ago

228 90 7 years ago

Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system, and there is indeed a lot to be said about it, the current situation is rather strange.

Indeed, it seems quite extraordinary that someone could not be sent from one territory of the PRC to another one to face trial.

ksec• 7 years ago

It is a feature, not a bug.

Someone has the great insight to foresee what could happen 30 years ago.

JumpCrisscross3• 7 years ago

Whatever we think of the mainland Chinese justice system

Beijing just unilaterally broke the Hong Kong handover agreement. In that agreement, China explicitly agreed that there would be two systems within PRC territory [1]. There is no way to sue the CPC in a Chinese court to enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the treaty.

In Hong Kong (as in Taiwan, Japan, Britain and the U.S.) the government is answerable to the law. In China, it is not. That is the crux of the issue. The way Beijing is cramming down this legislation is, funnily enough, the argument against it.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

DocTomoe2• 7 years ago

Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely legal in China).

If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or Canadian.

i_am_nomad2• 7 years ago

China has done precisely that:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-deta...

ShorsHammer• 7 years ago

Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their economy.

Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is. Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into the _world_.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8

DocTomoe2• 7 years ago

In all fairness, one of these guys organizes trips to North Korea. It's not like they were making themselves inconspicuous.

sarcasmOrTears• 7 years ago

They redone a trial for a canadian and gave him the death penalty, I said that's quite the retaliation for the whole huawei thing.

ngcc_hk• 7 years ago

May not be enough. But there are ten of thousands of potential hostage.

Real the statement by American congress majority leader about the case.

sky_nox2• 7 years ago

That Canadian man smuggled 200 kilos(440 pounds) of meth into China. If he did that in Singapore or Japan, he would get death penalty too.

JumpCrisscross3• 7 years ago

waiting for her extradition to the US

In a court of law, where she will have the chance to plead her case in public. If she is extradited, she will have that chance again in America. The government, in summary, will have to prove its case.

Such a system, the rule of law, doesn’t exist in China. (It does in Hong Kong.) That is why reasonable people are angry about this legislation.

throwaway2048• 7 years ago

For all the vaunted talk about how the CCP plans in terms of centuries and how they are so much more far sighted than western politicians, the continual abuse of Hong Kong's special status seems extremely short sighted, because it is going to make peaceful re-unification of Taiwan completely impossible.

re-actor• 7 years ago

I don't think CCP has put on any pretence about desiring peaceful re-unification.

AnimalMuppet• 7 years ago

Oh, I'm pretty sure they'd take it if they could get it. They just don't see any realistic chance that they could ever get it.

duxup• 7 years ago

There might be two things at play, the first described in the article that this is really a ploy to get "countries that have extradition treaties with Hong Kong to either renegotiate them successfully " possibly in favour of China.

Also Hong Kong's status might just be a constant question that if Hong Kong is part of China but has some local autonomy....why can't other parts of China? Especially if there was an economic crisis and Hong Kong faired better...

Easing them in might be secondary to domestic concerns.

Bakary7• 7 years ago

These already exist, there are 5 autonomous regions based around minority groups. There's also Macau which has a similar status to Hong Kong even if the system is quite different.

nicolas_t• 7 years ago

CCP planned in term of decades and were more far sighted than western politicians. This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping who is a short sighted petty autocrat but unfortunately extremely good at political maneuvering to concentrate power in his hands and undoing what little checks were instituted by Deng Xiaoping.

I had high hopes for China's future back when I lived there but that is no longer the case with the current government.

JumpCrisscross3• 7 years ago

This changed with the rise of Xi Jing Ping

To expand, Xi is a leader for life [1]. China is best modelled as a large, wealthy dictatorship which will act to keep its narrow leadership in power. This is very different from the long-term planning which characterised its growth when it was capable of peaceful transitions of power.

Pushing this legislation (or kidnapping bookstore owners publicising corruption amongst Beijing’s elite [2]), for China, is stupid. It stokes a vocal, organised opposition to Beijing. It also makes clean integration in ‘47 less likely. (The fraction of Hong Kong residents identifying as Chinese versus Hong Kongese has plummeted in the last few years [3].) From the perspective or keeping Xi in power, however, the ham-fistedness makes sense.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-43361276

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappear...

[3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-idUS...

Bakary7• 7 years ago

The situation is a lot more complicated than you make it seem. We barely have any idea how inner politics work in China, since little information leaks out unlike in most other nations. I don't think you can make a definitive statement on a leader whose name you haven't spelt correctly.

superfx• 7 years ago

This strikes me as the quintessential problem with autocracies. Sometimes one gets extremely efficient governments in the short term, when the autocrat is competent and not entirely corrupt, but in the long run whatever short term gains were had are squandered by corruption and greed. Democracy is inefficient in the short term but efficient in the long run.

umanwizard• 7 years ago

Peaceful reunification with Taiwan under CCP rule is already impossible. Neither side of Taiwanese politics would accept that: the big political divide in Taiwan is between people who consider themselves Taiwanese and support independence (pan-Green), and people who consider themselves Chinese but think the CCP are illegitimate rulers (pan-Blue).

Maybe this analogy is a bit of a stretch, but imagine the pan-Blue as ethnic Cubans in Florida, who despite feeling more Cuban than "Floridian" would never peacefully agree to Miami being reunited with Cuba under Castro regime rule.

The only way China and Taiwan could be reunited peacefully is if the CCP falls, the mainland becomes a capitalist liberal democracy acceptable, the pan-Blue coalition somehow becomes politically dominant in Taiwan despite being in opposition now, and they negotiate an agreement with the new Chinese regime. This is maybe not totally impossible, but still far-fetched.

I expect the CCP understands all of this. Since peaceful reunification with Taiwan is already impossible without the CCP going under anyway, it's not a good reason not to interfere with Hong Kong.

wiggler00m• 7 years ago

I asked a Hong Kong lawyer this week about the proposed extradition law. In particular, of the following, who would it apply to:

a) Chinese nationals; b) HK nationals; c) foreign nationals.

He advised it would apply to all three.

Edit: he also said it's not impossible the bill will be withdrawn.

1882012• 7 years ago

Yes, it is true. It is confirmed by pro-China lawyer in HK local newspaper. The prosecution of Huawei CFO make China targeting foreign nationals in Hong Kong for revenge.

Moreover, the issue is not only about politics, but also economic. The most concern is about how China could use this to threaten any person including foreign nationals in Hong Kong. Have a business disputed with some Chinese business while in Hong Kong? Then, you could be extradited to China any time soon. It is not safe to do business in Hong Kong anymore. If this bill is passed, then it is expected Hong Kong would be completely replaced by Singapore within some time of period for foreign companies in Hong Kong to leave.

hyperpallium• 7 years ago

Does China still have enough to gain, to make it worthwhile to destroy such an incredibly valuable asset?

Bakary7• 7 years ago

The writing is on the wall for Hong Kong even within China, as other cities have caught up economically.

mitfahrener• 7 years ago

HK is part of China. How do you send someone from China to China.

kzrdude• 7 years ago

American Samoa is part of the USA, yet they are not citizens. So there are always more details than just "part of" or not.

tialaramex• 7 years ago

One country. Two systems.

The _system_ in Hong Kong is very different.

It isn't uncommon to have such internal differences. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is likewise a single sovereign entity, often abbreviated as just "the UK" but for example abortion is _a crime_ in Northern Ireland, whereas it's offered as a normal part of the NHS on the mainland. Likewise Scotland has separate laws even though there's no discernible border, no more than a small street sign saying "You are now entering Scotland".

egao19807• 7 years ago

How this is worse than US extraditions / kidnapping of foreign nationals abroad? Never mind Assange there are plenty of people arrested outside of US and moved to US prison.

naringas• 7 years ago

the USA ("Western") system has to at least fabricate some charges or destroy the target's reputation.

the PRC doesn't seem to have such 'cumbersome' restrictions.

egao19807• 7 years ago

Tell that to the guys in Gitmo. Though they might be not nice and totally guilty nobody bothered to formally charge them.

iamdelirium• 7 years ago

The article doesn't talk about the US or Assange at all. Why are you even bringing it up?

egao19807• 7 years ago

Why moving criminals from one part of China to the other part of China becomes bigger issue than US kidnapping people all over the world?

lordleft• 7 years ago

Who said it was worse? What matters is that it is wrong.

ipython• 7 years ago

What is your solution, then? The demonstrators should realize the futility of their position, give up, go home, and allow the situation to deteriorate further?

Engaging in whataboutism just encourages the bad behavior you're highlighting here. It's a logical fallacy that leads to learned helplessness and a nihilistic worldview that actually ends up perpetuating the same vicious cycle I assume you wish to prevent.

egao19807• 7 years ago

Hong Kong is China though it has a formal autonomy. Anyone who thinks differently is heading for a nasty surprise.

Protests with street violence are making nice picture for Western media but will only bring trouble for individual local protesters. Criminal convictions, lost jobs, ruined careers.

This benefits only external actors that coordinate unrest and trying to get leverage on CCP in foreign affairs.

07d046• 7 years ago

For every thing the American judicial system does wrong, China does a hundred things worse. The conviction rate in China is well over 99% (if they want to find you guilty, they will). You can be detained with no access to a lawyer or family indefinitely. There is no separation of powers (the legal system isn't independent of the political system, and the constitution isn't worth anything). Torture and forced confessions are common. Roughly a million people are currently being held in concentration camps without any trial.

I know it's popular to be critical of America, and it's good to shine light on the darkest parts of America, but there is no comparison between it and what goes on in other parts of the world.

egao19807• 7 years ago

Which countries China has recently invaded and currently wages war against?

kevin_b_er2• 7 years ago

This is because China lacks the rule of law and the CPC considers the very notion a threat to their power. They're probably right. The rule of law would diminish the CPC's authoritarian principals.

The only rule in CPC China is whatever the CPC says is the rule, at the time they say it. The consider human rights to be dangerous to the CPC. The fundamental opposition to human rights is spelled out in "Communiqué on the Current State of the Ideological Sphere" in 2013.

sky_nox2• 7 years ago

It's interesting that Japan also has a conviction rate that exceeds 99%, and Canada has a conviction rate of 97%.

gruez2• 7 years ago

An anti-China thread isn’t complete without a whataboutism or “and you are lynching negroes” response.

egao19807• 7 years ago

To be fair, at the times you've mentioning US _was_ "lynching negros".

Here we have situation similar to US extraditing criminals from Puerto Rico. Why this suddenly become an issue?

Bakary7• 7 years ago

Whataboutism is relevant here. After all, one of the many reasons the right-wing elements became predominant in Japan in the first half of the 20th century is because Western powers were not willing to recognize it as an empire, even when they had done the same type of land grabs that Japan was trying to do.

edit: to clarify my clumsy statement a bit, I am not saying that criticism of America specifically is relevant here, or that America is just as bad (I agree that this is a ridiculous notion) but that the competing narratives and the past have direct consequences on politics. You can certainly see that on the discussions on climate change.

dang5• 7 years ago

Please don't do this tired trope on HN. The threads are bad enough without it.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

codedokode4• 7 years ago

What do you mean? If America is abusing its power for evil purposes then its fine if China does the same?

ddffre• 7 years ago

Chinese justice just like the justice political prisoners used to received in the USSR.

HK's extradition law: Not just HK people have reason to fear Chinese “justice”

Related Stories