RISC-V Bitmanip Extension [pdf]

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/riscv/riscv-bitmanip/master/bitmanip-0.90.pdf

by ncmncm • 7 years ago

83 32 7 years ago

raw.githubusercontent.com

amluto• 7 years ago

dang, etc: the “is an education” part of the title is inappropriate, and [pdf] should be added.

Quequau• 7 years ago

I was just thinking that "Bit Manipulation" would be better than "Bitmanip"but maybe I'm just being a bit thick this afternoon.

ncmncm5• 7 years ago

I see [pdf] there already.

How is "is an education" inappropriate?

wyldfire• 7 years ago

Presumably the objection is that it's not the original title. It's also an odd wording, I think "is interesting to read" might be clearer.

sctb• 7 years ago

We've reverted the title to the original, which the guidelines ask us to use.

dang• 7 years ago

Submitted title was "RISC-V Bitmanip Extension proposal is an education", which breaks the rule against editorializing, as well as "Please don't do things to make titles stand out [...] It's implicit in submitting something that you think it's important."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

inetsee• 7 years ago

I noticed an odd behavior with this link; it doesn't open the pdf in my browser (Firefox), and it doesn't ask if I want to save the pdf file. It just downloads the pdf file without any notification. I don't recall ever seeing an invisible download like this before.

klodolph2• 7 years ago

You can do this with the header:

    Content-Disposition: attachment

That's the correct way to do it. What's actually happening is that the wrong content type is being returned:

    Content-Type: application/octet-stream

This is the lazy way to do it.

CalChris2• 7 years ago

The bext, bdep instructions are the same as x86_64 BMI2 PDEP/PEXT. These are essentially scatter/gather instructions for bits and generally have a latency of three cycles on x86_64. I've never used them. I wonder whether Intel C uses them for anything but intrinsics.

But ARMv8 has the more prosaic Bitfield Operations which fit in 32b instructions and are single cycle on A75. I use these a lot.

jandrewrogers• 7 years ago

I've never seen code generated that uses PDEP/PEXT, probably because there are separate bitfield instructions. These intrinsics are definitely useful though (I use them) and they can radically simplify operations on some types of data models. I doubt the compiler will ever be good at finding those patterns in code, use cases aren't a simple substitution and the logic you'd be rewriting is large and diffuse.

ncmncm5• 7 years ago

This kind of instruction, in general, is not often emitted by compilers under normal circumstances, but can be essential to get good performance in e.g. encoding or decoding H.265 or AV1, or decompressing the best compression formats.

What makes these formats hard to do fast with regular code is that they may have been designed to work through dedicated hardware; or they just really pack in the bits.

dooglius3• 7 years ago

Nice to see that they are using the industry standard CRC32 polynomial in contrast to Intel/x86 who made up their own

klodolph2• 7 years ago

The Castagnoli polynomial is apparently faster to calculate, and it’s not exactly nonstandard.

childintime3• 7 years ago

Some industry standard CRC's are not recommended as there are much better ones (see research done by Koopman). So perhaps Intel is justified?

dooglius3• 7 years ago

Interesting. It looks like the Castagnoli polynomial is optimized assuming independent bit errors, while the "standard" CRC32 is optimized for consecutive bursts of bit errors (e.g. whole-byte errors). I guess it depends on the use case.

mrob2• 7 years ago

research done by Koopman

Good overview of the research:

https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/roses/dsn04/koopman04_crc...

Optimal CRC polynomials:

https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/crc/index.html

Note that the best CRC depends on the length of the message it's protecting.

nullc• 7 years ago

I would hope that they provide sufficient carryless multiply support so that _ANY_ crc polynomial can be efficiently implemented (not to mention fast error correcting codes and the great many other things that can be done with fast GF(2^n) arithmetic).

There is no one optimal CRC choice, the best CRC will depend on the error model of your channel and the lengths of the data that you're processing.

dooglius3• 7 years ago

They do, it's discussed on TFA

ncmncm5• 7 years ago

Poster speaking...

The original title on this was "RISC-V Bitmanip Extension proposal is an education" because, besides a list of proposed instructions and precise definitions, the new draft explains in some detail how they are useful for real programs, and in many cases shows how they can be implemented with minimal additional gate count.

It's an education because many of these operations will be unfamiliar to most readers, and may suggest to them new ways to solve problems. Some of the instructions are also implemented in recent x86 cores, sometimes in an AVXx extension, but Intel's assembly language mnemonic offers little hint at how powerful it is, and its reference documentation sheds little more light.

So, previous drafts looked like a huge bolus of largely doubtful instructions that looked to bloat the RISC-V spec but be little used. Now we can see that most need only an extra gate here and there on such existing subunits as barrel shifters and multipliers, yet open up whole new vistas of operations they could be used for. The more powerful ones turn a whole family of O(N) operations (N the word size or number of 1s or 0s) to O(1). In turn, they are building blocks for fundamental signal analysis and encoding algorithms that may then run up to N times faster.

The document is maintained at https://github.com/riscv/riscv-bitmanip/ .

equalunique• 7 years ago

Thanks you for the explanation

paulrpotts• 7 years ago

Interesting stuff, thanks. I am a big fan of Henry S. Warren's book _Hacker's Delight, 2nd ed._ and have used his algorithms several times - for example, when I need a 64-bit divide operation on a 32-bit microcontroller with single-precision floating-point only.

childintime3• 7 years ago

Is it an option on RISC-V to transparently emulate opcodes on cores that implement only a subset of an extension? This extension in particular seems to be a good candidate.

mrob2• 7 years ago

RISC-V is only an instruction set architecture, not a microarchitecture. It describes how things work from a software point of view, but it does not require any specific implementation, and it does not require anything to be fast. You can implement instructions with microcode or software if you want to.

childintime3• 7 years ago

You can implement instructions with microcode or software if you want to.

Note that I'm specifically not talking about microcode, nor emulation in software.

So I gather the answer is "no", and the instructions not directly implemented must be implemented in microcode instead of trapping them to a library.

ncmncm5• 7 years ago

The usual way to support a larger instruction set than is actually implemented in the chip is to "trap" unimplemented instructions, and then emulate them with a subroutine in the runtime library. A trap is like an interrupt, but generated from the instruction stream.

Of course this is a lot slower than the instruction might have been, but at least the code runs and produces the right answer.

Sometimes the trap does not change the execution sequence of externally visible instructions, but instead directs the machine to execute a sequence of internal microcode, while externally it looks like the machine has stalled. Indeed, on some machines all instructions trap this way.

Modern CISC chips do a more sophisticated form of the latter, where RISCs have typically avoided it for most or all operations.

So, whether and how RISC-V implementations emulate extensions will vary. Emulation generally doesn't produce very nice results, for this kind of operation -- the purpose of the instruction is to give users access to custom machinery wired into the core, for speed, and without the machinery the programmer might have preferred to achieve the results some other way.

Mistletoe• 7 years ago

I'm out of the loop, can someone tell me why Hacker News loves RISC so much?

ncmncm5• 7 years ago

RISC-V, in particular. Legit question. In a word, it's hackable.

unixhero• 7 years ago

RISC-V is open source rather libre. It's an ISA which anyone can use, and in a sense cannot be stopped. I myself believe it will be a juggernaut everyone will throw their efforts behind.

AceJohnny2• 7 years ago

RISC-V is an open and flexible CPU ISA, championed by the guy who invented RISC [1]. I recommend this talk [2] by him on the history of CPU architectures, complexity, and why the time is ripe for RISC-V when x86 and ARM dominate the industry (with some MIPS and PowerPC to round things off).

Note that the flexibility aspect means that it's relatively easy to design a chip that uses RISC-V (of which the OP article is an extension for). Designing chips is still out of reach of most hackers, but it does offer hopes of a more accessible landscape of General-Purpose CPUs, DSPs, GPUs, MCUs, etc...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Patterson_(computer_scie...

[2] https://californiaconsultants.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04...

JohnJamesRambo• 7 years ago

Thank you!

RISC-V Bitmanip Extension [pdf]

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