Simulating gunfire in naval wargames (2016)

http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot.com/2016/02/simulating-gunfire-in-naval-wargames.html

by daddy_drank • 7 years ago

62 29 7 years ago

wargamingmiscellany.blogspot.com

Reading this, and looking at the pictures and discussions about range reminded me of a time years ago (when I was a kid) reading the journal of a WWII combat vessel captain.

He was captain of a large battleship (akin to the Bismarck or Tirpitz) and I guess these ships were mainly used in long range stand off attacks, because he would talk about seeing the muzzle flashes of enemy ships through his telescope, then waiting 30 to 90 seconds to see where the shells would land near/on his ship.

I was always enthralled by the fact that you knew shells were heading your way bringing death and destruction, but you had to wait around a minute to see if they missed you or they impacted your vessel, and in that time, you had to plot an evasive manoeuvre as well as return fire solutions.

The distance and isolation of sea combat somehow makes it more haunting than the land warfare equivalent of an artillery barrage.

sandworm1013• 7 years ago

When cannons were common on land it was not unussual to see cannonballs bouncing across the field towards you. As they were subsonic, you also could hear them coming.

RobertRoberts• 7 years ago

After seeing this video I am not so sure those reports are accurate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL1DkrYL70s

protomyth2• 7 years ago

I remember being at Gen-Con in the 90's and seeing a game of Harpoon[1] going on. It was pretty amazing seeing all of the ships they were using. Maybe not as impressive as some of the Warhammer setups, but still pretty cool. I remember talking to a few of the folks and they believed it was the best game of this type. Larry Bond was also an author of some note.

1) http://www.larry-bond.com/games.htm

cyberferret3• 7 years ago

I never played tabletop Harpoon, but the IBM-PC computer game Harpoon was one of my favourites many decades ago. It was a game that highlighted the devastative power of air superiority over pure naval engagements. A squadron of soviet Blackjack bombers armed with Kitchen missiles could take out an entire carrier group or ground base while staying out of reach of carrier based fighters.

Wish there was a version of this game that runs in a browser or on modern tablets.

mrguyorama2• 7 years ago

You could absolutely run Harpoon in like dosbox on an android tablet or such.

The modern version/remake/inspired product is "Command" https://store.steampowered.com/app/321410/Command_Modern_Air...

audiometry2• 7 years ago

I recall Harpoon was the game that began Tom Clancy’s writing inspiration.

protomyth2• 7 years ago

I’m not sure it began his inspiration, but Red Storm Rising certainly came from it and had Larry Bond acknowledged as a co-author in the preface.

jhbadger• 7 years ago

Interesting how in these early wargames (see also H.G. Wells' "Little Wars" from 1913) firing was simulated by a physical action while in modern games this is generally settled by dice or other random number generator.

LoSboccacc• 7 years ago

it lasted quite a while, it was around mid eighties that the love for gitzmo faded and everything became a roll.

they getting back tho, at least looking at the Kickstarter trends in board games.

waste_monk• 7 years ago

I remember reading about a model boating society that, instead of wargaming, would create scale models of famous warships and fight them - the hulls would be thin wood, and the turrets had motorised mounts and compressed air guns capable of firing a metal pellet through the wooden hulls. The ships would have less internal bulkheads (to account for the damage explosive shells would cause) but would otherwise try to be as true to life as was possible given the limits of technology (I don't think anyone was building gyro-stabilised gun platforms, for example, as it was too hard to minituarize).

There was even a proposal to build larger scale ships that used small-calibre handgun ammunition and sheetmetal hulls, but it was shot down (if you'll forgive my pun) for being wildly unsafe and probably illegal (as I understand civilians are generally discouraged from owning remote-controllable firing mechanisms).

Something1234• 7 years ago

If anybody has a link or video to this, I would be extremely interested in it.

nkurz• 7 years ago

Model Warship Combat seems to be a good search term: https://www.google.com/search?q=Model+Warship+Combat

sandworm1013• 7 years ago

Fun to watch, but it could never be a reasonable simulation. Unless the model ships were hundreds of meters appart, the trajectories would be far too flat. To be close enough to score a hit you wouldnt be able to hole the other ship near the waterline. You would just blast at superstructures without ever sinking.

And there was an easy(ish) way to stabilize the guns. Mercury switches were used to ensure they only fired when the hull was reasonably level.

MrMember3• 7 years ago

I could have sworn it was outright illegal to build a remote firing mechanism but apparently that likely isn't the case.

https://hackaday.com/2015/07/22/no-mounting-a-gun-to-a-quadc...

Still stupid as hell, but probably not illegal.

jontro• 7 years ago

Post is from 2016

dang• 7 years ago

Added. Thanks!

GlenTheMachine• 7 years ago

Unless you've seen one up close it's hard to wrap your head around how big naval guns are.

I work in a converted naval gun factory, built in WWII. They used to take the main guns off battleships and reline them every hundred shots or so, and my building was a huge machine shop set up to replace the linings.

The gantry crane used to take the guns off the railroad cars they were shipped on is still in place. The hook of the crane is a solid piece of steel. It is larger than my Honda.

killjoywashere• 7 years ago

Great photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_iowa_bb-61_pr.jpg

notice the boats along the port side near the aft gun. And, forward of the aft gun, and between the deck houses, are several grey rectangles. Each one has 4 Tomahawk missiles. Those "coffins" are roughly the size of tractor trailers.

One thing you'll notice: no humans. The shockwave will kill you.

hatsunearu• 7 years ago

I incorrectly assumed the tomahawks would be on VLS launch platforms but no, they're like surface launched or something. Took a while to look for those "coffins" when I was looking for a square on the deck :P

Simulating gunfire in naval wargames (2016)

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