Ask YC: Entrepreneurs vs Builders

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=198090

by davidw • 18 years ago

27 35 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

This is an ill-formed question/debate topic that I've wanted to broach for a while. Sorry if it's not as clear as could be hoped, but it's sort of a vague notion.

One of the things I've liked about PG and his writing is that I get a sense of a hacker figuring out enough business stuff to make a go of it, and consequently flipping the company: as a hacker, he was never going to want to stay on the business side anyway. PG strikes me as a "builder" - someone with lots of technical ability who goes out and creates things. Incidentally, I also see myself as being more along those lines than a "business guy".

"Entrepreneurs" on the other hand, are those "wheeler dealer" type of guys who are really good at putting together various people and other aspects of a business. They are kind of technical, but not the guys who go out and build something really cool themselves. They're the classic business starters, in my opinion.

So - what do you guys think of "builders" vs "entrepreneurs" in this day and age?

aitoehigie2• 18 years ago

Would you classify Steve jobs as a "builder" or an "entrepreneur"? i think for any would be successful startup founder, you have to swing both ways. just my 2 cents.

aneesh• 18 years ago

Jobs is not the "builder" in any technical sense of the word. But he's a brilliant entrepreneur nonetheless.

aitoehigie2• 18 years ago

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were the main brains behind the Apple computer although Steve Wozniak was more nerdy, Steve Jobs also had his input. He is seen as a business or idea man today because of his charisma and flamboyance.

ntoshev2• 18 years ago

Entrepreneur. Woz is a builder.

This may not be a duality with clear-cut boundaries, but nevertheless it strikes me as a very true one, one that helps me understand things. Introvert/extravert is not clear-cut either.

Mystalic• 18 years ago

Entrepreneurs are defined by their characteristics: Willing to take risks, able and willing to learn and execute on multiple areas of business starting, and most of all, adaptable: able to change course based on what he or she sees in the market.

All entrepreneurs are builders. They build both the idea and the business. What separates them from builders is their ability to adapt and their willingness to branch out into a lot of different areas

dennykmiu7• 18 years ago

I think what you are proposing is a false choice but I understand why you want to frame it this way.

Having been an entrepreneur for the last fifteen years, I have come to learn that my job description as an entrepreneur is simple, "if I could describe it, it ain't my job".

In other words, in the beginning of the startup, you have to do whatever it takes (be an engineer, be a salesman, be a negotiator, etc.) but once the company gets off the ground, then you need to give that responsibility to someone else. But by then, there will be other tasks that are not well defined that require your attention. And the cycle continues until the company is no longer a startup and the entrepreneur has lost his/her place in the company (or he/she matures into a manager).

At the end of the day, an entrepreneur's job is to connect the dots. It is a deceptively simple description of what we do.

ntoshev2• 18 years ago

I don't think it is a choice. As described, entrepreneur/builder are two distinct personality types.

gleb2• 18 years ago

I think the "distinct" part is what makes it false choice. "Builder" (ability to create a product personally) is good. "Entrepreneur" is good. Having either one in spades may be sufficient for success. Having some measure of both may be as well.

davidw7• 18 years ago

What you wrote is a very apt description of my idea of the 'entrepreneur', but it definitely isn't the "builder"/"Woz" kind of guy, so much. Maybe in the right circumstances, builders can handle that stuff (like PG in my example), but I don't think it comes as natural as it does to people who really fit into the role you describe.

dennykmiu7• 18 years ago

Steve Wozniak was not an entrepreneur; he was an inventor and a great engineer. He didn't even want to leave HP to start Apple. Steve Jobs was an entrepreneur but I would argue that he was also an inventor and a great engineer (great product engineer). Obviously the two Steve's are different. Not being one doesn't automatically make you the other one. And that's what I mean by false choice. You are who are you are and all of us are a little of both if not a little of everything. Entrepreneurs by definition do not fit nicely into slotted description. That's why we decide to be entrepreneurs.

neovive• 18 years ago

I agree. Once you get past the idea phase of an early startup, everyone is essentially a builder. Even salespeople, business developers, and negotiators are contributing towards "building" the company. Once a company moves beyond the startup phase, the role of the founder begins to change -- the founder then needs to find a place in the company or move on to the next challenge.

dennykmiu7• 18 years ago

I have been writing a book based on my own entrepreneurial experience. I am half way done. My last chapter is entitled "The Nail that Keeps the Air from Leaking" and that pretty much describes my own experience as an entrepreneur building a company from scratch.

http://www.StartupForLess.org

Once the company is profitable. It is really boring. Then the challenge is to find a way to leave (without others feeling that you have abandoned them). And there are so many ways to do it wrong but the main one is that we tend to overstay our welcome which is human nature, so the founding entrepreneur becomes both a bug and a feature.

pg• 18 years ago

Historically the distinction was far from false: it's Watt vs Boulton.

Perhaps it's getting falser as techies increasingly don't need business guys as cofounders.

Alex3917• 18 years ago

"Perhaps it's getting falser as techies increasingly don't need business guys as cofounders."

The reason the barriers to starting a business are falling is because the tech side is getting easier and cheaper. The business skills one needs remain unchanged.

ratsbane• 18 years ago

I think that's a really good question. There are (at least) two distinctly different skill sets or personality types essential for a successful entrepreneurial business - one is the thinking-of-new-ideas-and-making-them-work track and the other is the bookkeeping-and-keeping-up-with-routine track. I'm not very good at the second; switching back and forth between coding and bookkeeping makes me want to sit in a corner of a dark room and rock back and forth slowly while reciting Kipling. Some people, though, are really good at the second. I know a few people who manage both and I'm rather in awe of them.

Perhaps there's a third type, too - the guy who goes out and sells the idea, like Jobs to Woz.

How do you solve this problem? What am I doing wrong?

mooders• 18 years ago

I think I have a slightly different spin on the difference. I tend to see, rightly or wrongly, a Builder as someone who is going to see a job through to the finish - a details person, in essence. A Hacker, in YC parlance.

I see Entrepreneurs as those that create the ideas, or see the vision of how an idea could be used, implemented (on a broad level), or sold. I feel an Entrepreneur's skillset lends itself to creating the team, inspiring the vision and making the deals necessary to establish the company as a viable entity.

I also tend to see Entrepreneurs as quickly bored (perhaps that is just how I see myself) and eager to move onto the next thing.

I guess that's why I feel a startup generally needs two co-founders - a business person and a techie person. Ideally, they'll each have a degree of appreciation for the other's domain.

ideas101• 18 years ago

People who can run the day-to-day operations, dealing with many dept. (sales, marketing, technology, HR etc.) may or may not be an entrepreneur because my understanding is entrepreneurs are builders because they create something from scratch.

Many people start their career with 9 to 5 job and keep getting promoted to the CEO level, but they may not have ability and courage (at least in the beginning of their career) to build a new business right from the scratch.

While entrepreneurs/builders are the people who start and build something (or help others to build something) from nothing.

Serial entrepreneurs (and builders) are always on the move - from one project to another as they are not interested in doing the same thing over and over again on daily basis - they get excited to build something from scratch and once it is built they find the right person to run it (or they help others to build it and move on to the next project).

Serial entrepreneurs (and builders) to me are like King-makers, they are not interested in becoming a king them self and run daily operations. They are like a Guru who has many disciples (kings) who achieve success with his/her skills and knowledge. It is well known saying that a Guru is equal to a 1000 libraries - they know which book is for whom, and when and how to use it.

davidw7• 18 years ago

> entrepreneurs are builders because they create something from scratch.

Yes, the two types of people aren't that far apart, but the entrepreneur is the guy that can tie things together and make things happen, whereas the builder is the one who creates a beautiful, well done product - or maybe not even that, just a brilliant idea that no one has ever done before. Perhaps "pure" builders aren't suited for startups - they're the brilliant type of people who just don't want to be bothered with organizational or marketing details, and would be happy in the R&D department of a company big enough to give them all the resources they need to create really interesting things. At least that's my mental image...

Some hackers who strike me as not wanting to deal with the business side, and have still prospered might include people like Andrew Tridgell (who is a seriously smart individual), Linus Torvalds, Guido van Rossum, Alan Cox, and so on. Not that they don't have some good organizational skills and people skills too, but they are not the kind of people I would describe as entrepreneurs.

skmurphy2• 18 years ago

Very few people who treat their job as 9 to 5 get promoted to CEO.

edw5192• 18 years ago

I believe that there's an inverse relationship between "building" and "wheeling and dealing". The more and better you build, the less you need to wheel and deal.

I've always noticed that commodity type products needed great promotion people. Examples: insurance, real estate, some industrial products.

I think this happens less with great products that address a real need and have captured their place in the market. You don't see many telemarketers for Apple, Volvo, or Google.

I focus on building so I won't have to wheel and deal as much. Might not be a bad idea for most people here, too.

davidw7• 18 years ago

> The more and better you build, the less you need to wheel and deal.

I think that that is actually a common mistake for 'builder' type people. "I'll make something that kicks ass, and everything else will sort of work itself out".

edw5192• 18 years ago

"the less you need to wheel and deal" != "everything else will sort of work itself out"

Big difference

webwright2• 18 years ago

I totally that a product focus is a key to greatness, with a big caveat.

EVERYONE sets out to build a kickass product that are so freaking good that it flies off the shelves. Most fail, and merely build a GOOD product. Good products need sales, marketing, messaging, packaging, bizdev, etc.

And... FWIW, Apple spends a TON of money on marketing (but telemarketing, as you say, would be a bad way to market). They advertise everywhere, spend a ton on packaging, do biz dev deals all over the place, and all of the expensive Apple Stores are really just a distribution/marketing tool, no?

Andreessen told a great story about how they literally couldn't sell their business offering until the phrase "intranet" started making the rounds... Same product, different packaging/messaging, sales skyrocket.

How you talk about your product and how you position is (oftentimes) just as important as how good it is... Especially if it's just merely good.

webwright2• 18 years ago

I think it totally depends on the business, and the core problems that need to be solved for the business to win. Some businesses require only technical genius. Some really just need an innovative UI. Some need dealmakers.

A lot of builders attack problems whose core problems aren't technical... Which often leads to failure.

Either way, in the earliest stages, specialization is oftentimes a really bad thing. If you can't sell your product to co-founders, employees, partners, and customers, then you might be too specialized to be a successful entrepreneur.

Entrepreneurs (whether they are builders or not) get shit done. PG did sales. When he was starting up, he aggressively recruited great team members. Great entrepreneurs don't silo themselves... They stack rank the most important problems they should tackle (whether they are building-related or not) and then they try to destroy 'em with whatever means necessary.

So, in short: Make sure your teams' skills match the core issues of the product you're attacking, but know that every team member is going to have to get out of their comfort zone and attack stuff that needs attacking.

Ask YC: Entrepreneurs vs Builders

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