My dalliance with smart drugs - and the lesson I learned

http://www.johannhari.com/2009/06/21/my-dalliance-with-smart-drugs-and-the-lesson-i-learned

by caustic • 16 years ago

221 139 16 years ago

johannhari.com

parenthesis• 16 years ago

Previous discussions:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190676

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757

nikster• 16 years ago

The new discovery here is that the drug kills creativity - that's a pretty big deal for me.

It's also quite different from meditation, which fosters creativity.

grovulent2• 16 years ago

I think a better description of the process - at least, as it applies to my own usage (prescribed) goes like this:

When you are on these sorts of drugs think of it as opening the tap. You execute with the full force of your creative reserves that you've built up. The more pent up you are - the more the ideas just pour through you as you write/code/compose - whatever.

And because the tap is open, eventually the waters on one side of the dam level out with those on the other. The rate of creative execution slows down because it's not pent up.

But I think it's a mistake to say one is LESS creative. You remain as creative as you ever were. The same amount of water flows through your stream as it ever did. One just doesn't have the same pent up backlog of ideas to execute anymore - just that steady stream.

StavrosK2• 16 years ago

Basically, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to take a pill one weekend in the month. You'll do all the things you've been meaning to for ages, and then go back to normal.

I'd try it myself if I weren't dubious of the "no side-effects" thing. I don't think it's very likely that a drug makes you supersmart without having ill effects...

alexandradavis• 16 years ago

My experience matches caustics: I was able to settle into work, but my creativity was killed.

I'd recommend smart drugs for doing drudgery, but if you need to engage the right brain for inventiveness, chocolate works great :)

roadnottaken2• 16 years ago

I disagree, in a way. I used to take amphetamines when studying (adderall) and I'd find that I could completely get lost in whatever task I was pursuing. So, if I stayed focused on my study material, I'd absorb the material very thoroughly and quickly (relatively speaking). However, if I'd get distracted by something ~creative like, say, drawing a picture or composing a song (I didn't do any coding back then) I could get similarly lost in that task. That ability to "get lost" in something is, to me, very powerful creatively.

Here's an example of the sort of artwork that I would do on speed that I probably wouldn't have the patience for, otherwise:

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5550/penroseknotv3sm.jpg

I'm sure there are some types of creativity that are blunted, but the ability to direct extended focus and attention to any task (even creative ones) is a powerful thing that shouldn't be overlooked.

caustic• 16 years ago

Please note, I am not the author of the mentioned article. In fact, I never took Modafinil. I just remembered there was a decent discussion here at HN of the first part of the article, then I Googled and found there is follow up. So I decided to post it here.

MtL• 16 years ago

Have any programmers in here had any experiences with nootropics (*racetams, DMAE, etc)?

silentbicycle10• 16 years ago

Yes. Search the archives for "piracetam", "aniracetam", etc. Discussions about nootropics seem to come up a few times a year (though they usually get derailed to talking about amphetamines and provigil pretty quickly).

dawson2• 16 years ago

My experience with Concerta (albeit a different drug), is not the same. I have seen a massive increase in my ability to concentrate and complete tasks, as well as be creative (in relation to my start up and business development). Though, creativity is relative to any one person and context.

jakerocheleau• 16 years ago

I can't speak for Provigil but I've used both Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) and Adderall (basically amphetamines) to help me study/work on tough projects and have had phenomenal results. I don't notice any "lack" in my creativity and honestly I find myself pumping out higher-quality work when I can focus in and get "in the zone". My writing improves, programming skills shoot through the fucking roof, and I find I can work from many different perspectives on any given problem.

Always in moderation of course. I couldn't imagine speeding every work day just to finish projects

dsplittgerber• 16 years ago

What I find most astonishing is that people administer 'smart' drugs without having the slightest clue to their long-term side effects. You discount long-term risks in favor of short-term gains.

We humans simply don't understand much of what goes on in the brain - I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences.

AngryParsley3• 16 years ago

...long-term side effects.

Modafinil has been around since the 70's. So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use. Actually, some studies found it to have a neuroprotective effect.

I wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences.

The environment we evolved in is quite different from the environment we now live in. Humans used to have much more limited supplies of food and nutrients. Our bodies are built for famine resistance instead of maximum performance. There's probably a similar trade-off in our brain functions, since the brain is a pretty big energy hog (responsible for around 25% of calories burned).

We can use drugs to tweak the trade-offs made by evolution. We don't have to worry about food and nutrients today. Stimulants can decrease appetite and need for sleep, both of which would be disastrous in a food-limited environment. Even the effect of stimulants we find beneficial (spending hours in concentrated thought) would likely be harmful on the African savannah.

The precautionary principle is too often applied in the case of enhancement. We don't completely understand the brain yet, but we do have some idea of how it works, and today there are safe effective drugs that improve cognitive abilities.

rsheridan6• 16 years ago

>So far, no studies have found issues with long-term use.

Most likely translation: there have been no long-term studies of modafinil. A quick search doesn't turn any up.

narrator• 16 years ago

wouldn't believe there is anything to be done to your brain, like enhancing cognitive abilities through drugs, without unintended consequences.

Although there are many illegal drugs that have negative consequences, the practice of applying this as a naive general law of medicine is largely a result of many years of this idea, or ideas similar to it, being drilled into us by the war on drugs propaganda machine. Each substance must be evaluated on a case by case basis and if people have been taking certain drugs for 30 years with no deleterious effect, the evidence is certainly in favor of long term safety, or even * gasp * benefit.

There are other beliefs similar to this, such as any radio signal emitting device causes cancer, that have silently entered the culture as fact without much science to support them.

mr_luc• 16 years ago

This article could not have been written to tempt me any more effectively.

'It doesn't cause hyperfocused procrastination, like Adderal or Dexedrine. It's 'deep concentration.' And you can go off it whenever you want! It's a temporary smart pill with no withdrawal symptoms!'

D'oh. "Get behind me, Satan!"

stygianguest• 16 years ago

Indeed, I myself have always been quite doubtfull of drugs' effectiveness. I used to attribute success much more to e.g. the discipline to refrain from browsing. This article makes me rethink that.

As for the creativity, I'm not always sure that is a boon. When I encounter a particularly inspiring idea while studying something else, I find my mind wanders off in all directions with creative ideas, where I 'should' be concentrating on task at hand.

barrkel• 16 years ago

My experience has been that it leaves me drained for a couple of days afterwards, a little like a hangover but without any headache or sickness. It's not a free lunch. As to advantages, primarily modafinil stops me from feeling fatigued during the day, more than anything else; but I can still feel my brain getting tired, making more mistakes. It's just that the urge to take a break, rest, sleep etc. is numbed.

jfb• 16 years ago

Pros: it's killer for jet lag -- I fly between the US and HK fairly regularly, and suffer extraordinarily from jet lag. Modafinil helps a lot in reseting my internal clock. I also see the deep concentration effect, particularly on a project that I'm avoiding due to the inherent dullitude -- when high, I can power through stuff that I would deflect and ignore.

On the down side, if I forget and drink a beer after taking Modafinil, the hangover is epic. Too, it makes my pee smell really weird. And I have a tendency towards chatterboxery, which is exacerbated beyond all reason.

Anecdotes/evidence/&c.

gwern3• 16 years ago

> Too, it makes my pee smell really weird.

As people point out above, this is a good thing. Makes counterfeiting that much harder. It would be nice if all drugs came with such signatures of authenticity. ('Remember, real Viagra will cause a little shamrock tattoo to appear under your right armpit for an hour.')

danielnicollet7• 16 years ago

I never even thought of taking a drug to get ahead or be better at what I do. I don't think I knew people did self-medicate to improve their productivity either. It seems so wrong to me and so unauthentic. The brain is a fragile mission critical component we know so little about. I am amazed so many seem here discuss it so candidly. Good luck and make sure you don't turn into veggies by 50 y.o.

DanI-S• 16 years ago

If you're concerned about being inauthentic, you should write all your code on paper rather than using anything as performance-enhancing as a text editor. And forget about that morning coffee!

danielnicollet7• 16 years ago

wow - you see no difference between coffee and a neural enhancer? this is way off the chart for me here. I have no difficulties seeing authenticity in what I do vs. the pill-popping programming regimen (maybe that's why I am getting downvoted here). I would also say it keep me very happy so far. So I wish good luck to those who choose that instead :)

dholowiski• 16 years ago

Side effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects)

In 2007, the FDA ordered Cephalon to modify the Provigil leaflet in bold-face print of several serious and potentially fatal conditions attributed to modafinil use, including TEN, DRESS syndrome, and Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS). The long term safety and effectiveness of modafinil has not been determined.

Webmd:http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 Headache, nausea, nervousness, anxiety, dizziness, and difficulty sleeping may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly.

Tell your doctor immediately if any of these rare but serious side effects occur: mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, confusion, depression, abnormal thoughts, hallucinations). Seek immediate medical attention if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: chest pain, fast/pounding/irregular heartbeat, signs of infection (e.g., fever, persistent sore throat).

AngryParsley3• 16 years ago

6 cases over a decade. That's pretty safe in my book. You also left out the part about acute toxicity. For acute doses, Modafinil is safer than caffeine.

The FDA is ridiculously risk-averse when it comes to approving drugs. For example, they recently rejected lorcaserin and qnexa, two anti-obesity drugs, over safety concerns. They also got sibutramine withdrawn from the US market. Even if these drugs have risks, the risks of obesity are likely much higher.

A lot of people are going to die from obesity that would have been saved if these drugs were approved. Of course, the media reports when approved drugs cause harm, not when rejected drugs don't save lives.

silentbicycle10• 16 years ago

Pharmaceutical products in the US that have unexpected side-effects can cause their owner to be sued into oblivion, and even incredibly rare side effects are likely to manifest if a large population is taking them. (Also, the population at large does not understand statistics & probability.) Look at the history of Thalidomide, that's where a lot of precedents were set.

This puts certain categories of drugs (anything for pregnant women, nootropics for people without alzheimers, etc.) in the "too risky to bother" category.

Gatsky2• 16 years ago

I think that last comment is over-calling things a bit. There are no studies supporting the conclusion that anti-obesity drugs save lives (this is not to say that they definitely don't, just that no one has proven it). Most of them cause weight loss of only 2 - 5kg anyway, compared to dietary/behavioural intervention alone.

On the other hand, surgery for obesity is dramatically effective and there is good evidence that it saves lives. It is strongly recommended in appropriate patients eventhough 1 - 2% of people die because of the operation.

Don't think the FDA is being risk averse, they just decided not to approve a modestly effective agent with an unclear safety profile.

losvedir• 16 years ago

> Even if these drugs have risks, the risks of obesity are likely much higher.

"Likely", nice weasel word there. In fact, sibutramine was pulled after the SCOUT trial showed that the risks of obesity were not higher. The cardiovascular risks of the drug more than offset the decresae in risks from lower weight.

Lorcaserin was barely efficacious, and had a cancer signal.

Qnexa was very efficacious, but had even more serious side effects. One serious one-two punch is that it makes women much more fertile because of the hormonal effects of weight loss (in the clincial trial something like 20 women got pregnant despite double birth control protection), and at the same time contains topiramate, a Pregnancy Category C drug known to cause birth defects.

You'll get no argument from me that the FDA is very risk averse (and I think there are several drugs rejected this year that should have been approved, e.g. pirfenidone for IPF), but I think you're wrong that the FDA should have approved these obesity drugs. As you say, obesity is a big problem in the US, which means lots and lots of people are going to take any drugs once they're approved. Such drugs have to be incredibly safe or there will be lots of problems.

The next obesity drug to come up for FDA approval is Orexigen's Contrave, and we'll see what happens there.

araneae2• 16 years ago

Hey, do you want to know what the side effects of birth control pills are?

Nausea, loss of sexual function, mood swings, increased risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and heart attack.

Give me some Provigil any day.

xom• 16 years ago

Come to speak of it, interfering with birth control does happen to be a possible side effect of modafinil.

Gatsky2• 16 years ago

Those abbreviated fatal conditions are severe systemic drug reactions involving skin. They are mostly idiosyncratic - in other words, not really related to the total dose and not more likely with long term use. Some people are unlucky and get these reactions, presumably due to genetic/immunological factors. HIV infection and SLE are known to increase the risk of TEN and SJS.

These reactions are rare, which makes it difficult to precisely quantify the risk. Other drugs which are known to cause these reactions are NSAIDs like ibuprofen, which you can buy from a supermarket, and antibiotics like amoxycillin or bactrim, which doctors prescribe without being particularly concerned about the risk of potentially fatal skin reactions.

araneae2• 16 years ago

My SO takes Provigil infrequently and has reported no loss of creativity.

Next this guy is going to tell us that LSD bring him closer to God, and you're going to believe him?

Anecdotal evidence about the effects of drugs are mostly worthless.

swombat5• 16 years ago

For what it's worth, depending on your definition of God and how much LSD you take, I'd be inclined to believe that second statement.

I agree that anecdotal evidence is not worth much, however the problem with psychoactive drugs is that many of the most interesting effects are subjective (and thus the best data is always anecdotal) and that scientific studies of certain interesting drugs is illegal. Anecdotal evidence may not be worth much, but it's certainly worth more than prejudices based on zero evidence.

Also worth pointing out that not all interesting things in life can be studied with objective double-blind studies.

corin_3• 16 years ago

Can anyone recomend somewhere to get hold of a (preferably small) amount of Provigil? (Shipping to UK) Would like to try it myself.

edit: Found http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&... and placed a small order with a throwaway credit card, will see if that arrives in the next 7-14 days as promised. Would still like any recomendations, though.

swombat5• 16 years ago

I've ordered a number of times from: http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp

They have not defrauded the cards I used and the stuff they delivered was, as far as I could tell, real (both from the packaging and from the effects).

corin_3• 16 years ago

Thanks for the link - pretty expensive at 30 for 81euro (Alertec) or 30 for 143euro (Provigil)

gwern3• 16 years ago

I have been wondering; for a while, my linkchecker tool has reported that my QHI links in http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil.html#suppliers-prices are broken, and QHI gives some sort of IP error when I visit - is QHI blocking non-European IPs?

philh• 16 years ago

From http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics : "Beware of firms that advertise prices significantly lower than the above, because you will probably not get the real thing. The author very nearly got ripped off by a firm that was advertising 100x200mg packages for $90. These will come from countries that manufacture it generically despite the patent."

If you do try these, I would be interested in hearing how they compare to the Alertec.

daeken• 16 years ago

Assuming the pills look like they should, a good way to tell that you actually got modafinil/adrafinil is to see if you have a high concentration of sulfur in your urine. Meaning, go to the bathroom -- if you smell sulfur, you've most likely got the real thing. Anyone with a nose who's taken these before will understand...

ashleyw2• 16 years ago

Just ordered 20x Modafinil from them, also shipping to the UK. Quite anxious about ordering drugs from a foreign company, but from some quick research, it would seem UnitedPharmacies are quite reputable. I'll probably break the tablet in halve anyway and start with 50mg, just to be on the safe(r) side.

my_throwaway• 16 years ago

For various reasons I need a throwaway for this but I can confirm I've ordered with United a few times and it has been smooth sailing each time. Their ModAlert is also genuine (compared packaging and job numbers over time and with other vendors) and remarkably cheap. Only prob I had once was they didn't accept my Visa card, but tried again with another and was OK.

It's worth noting that the "retail price" from the original pharmacy is stamped on the packaging. It's in Indian rupees, but it comes out to something like £1.50 per 10.. so they're still making a nice markup.

roel_v7• 16 years ago

Aren't you afraid customs will intercept and you'll be tossed in jail and labeled a drug offender?

joelangeway• 16 years ago

You'll find more scientifically oriented articles about this subject if you call it nootropics. Here is another personal (not me) anecdote about it which comes off quite differently.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea...

scotth• 16 years ago

There's a lot of conjecture here. Not sure why it's being upvoted.

chapel• 16 years ago

This seems to pop up a lot.

After reading about this the first time I researched for about a month before purchasing any. My general experience with them is that they work, they keep you up longer than you would normally be able to, they keep you alert, you don't feel like you are hopped up either.

The effect only lasts so long though, after being up for over 24 hours, your body gets tired, and the effectiveness of the drug gets worse. I didn't really go past 36 hours, but if I wanted to I could have. Note that I didn't purposely try and stay up all those times, I work graveyard shifts and ended up having important things come up when I needed to sleep and I was forced to stay up.

Modafinil really did help me when I was tired, but as far as being a 'smart drug' it wasn't exactly mind blowing. It did make it easier to focus, but I could just as easily focus on a TV show, or a website, versus a piece of code I wanted to finish. So if you need to stay up, study, or get something done and you are determined to do it, this is great. If you want something to augment your day to day life and make you 'smarter' this really isn't for you.

Though there are more things popping up saying that it might have worse long term side effects than previously thought, I didn't really have any that I know of, but if I get brain cancer in a year I guess I know why. :)

farnsworth• 16 years ago

And may I ask where you purchased it?

silentbicycle10• 16 years ago

Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about amphetamines instead. (Edit: Yup, and now I'm getting downvoted.)

Here's a much better article about actual smart drugs (http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics), and its HN discussion (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959). Sorting them in terms of risk & body load is a good idea, I think. He's not kidding when he says vaso-/desmopressin messes with homeostasis.

The racetams (piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, etc.) are probably the least risky, though I've had the best long-term effects from getting enough sleep and exercise, eating reasonably well, and not spiking and crashing on caffeine all the time. If you want to try nootropics, be informed and careful, and address the obvious factors that may be messing with your concentration first. (For me it was sleep debt and too much caffeine.)

joshu• 16 years ago

Modafinil isn't a stimulant.

silentbicycle10• 16 years ago

Then what is it? I don't have a PDR on hand, but Wikipedia says it's an "analeptic", a central nervous system stimulant used specifically to control sleepiness.

Construct8• 16 years ago

Modafinil is most certainly a stimulant.

Its mode of action isn't identical to that of Adderall (amphetamine) and Ritalin (methylphenidate) but then again neither is that of caffeine, but it is still a stimulant. Adderall and Ritalin increase extra-cellular concentrations of dopamine and norepinephrine. Modafinil has been shown in many studies to elevate dopamine and norepinephrine concentrations in certain regions of the brain. It may not accomplish this as directly as Ritalin or Adderall, but the effect is there. There are additional glutamate-enhancing and GABA-reducing effects to Modafinil as well, which is perhaps where the "Modafinil is not a stimulant" misconception comes from. Still, administering a dopamine antagonist diminishes some of Modafinil's effects, much in the same way it diminishes the effects of Adderall or Ritalin.

But even without delving into the pharmacology of Modafinil, how you can you possibly not call Modafinil a stimulant? It promotes wakefulness, increases concentration, and substitutes for Adderall and Ritalin in narcolepsy treatment. It is also a Schedule IV controlled substance (FYI, do not attempt to import a controlled substance, but Adrafanil is a Modafinil precursor and is not scheduled.) indicating there is even a risk of abuse.

digitailor10• 16 years ago

Please discontinue downvoting the parent comment, it is correct. Provigil is not classed a stimulant in the PDR.

hamilcarbarca• 16 years ago

This site is very informative, easily the best hub of nootropic information I have seen. There are links from each of the drugs to the medical studies, user surveys, etc.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-i...

Also read: Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea...

Choline + Piracetam + Melatonin are what I use. All are 100% legal, nonprescription, effective and safe (according to all scientific research so far).

Routine exercise has been shown repeatedly to provide tremendous gains to mental cognition. Get yourself to a baseline that includes daily cardiac exercise before jumping into the great chemical unknown.

I have tried both adrafinil (legal/unregulated in USA, metabolized in vivo to modafinil) and armodafinil. The best way I could describe them is that they provide the wakefulness provided by caffeine, without the attention deficit hyperactivity. While they are certainly both interesting and effective, cost is prohibitive.

Stay away from amphetamines. Regardless of the potential for physical dependence, you will rapidly develop a mental dependency on them. For a short while I had a prescription for ritalin and adderall (stopped taking them on my own accord)and can admit that they made me feel superhuman. However, they also provide a hellish overconfidence that can cripple you. I was not more creative and was ironically less focused upon the important aspects of my work. Information triage is far more difficult when everything in the world suddenly becomes worth of intense study.

fragmede• 16 years ago

Is there actually a medical definition of "smart drugs"? I know some seriously smart people with a serious caffeine addiction who have an IQ of about 85 before their morning coffee.

silentbicycle10• 16 years ago

Medical journals usually use the term "nootropics". "smart drugs" is more of a catch-all, and makes me think of Mondo 2000 (cyberpunk! fractals! subvert the dominant paradigm!) rather than medical research.

And: Don't underestimate the short-term effects of caffeine withdrawl (and daily rituals). They're probably waking up mentally at -2 cups of coffee. Caffeine use seems to be more beneficial when used in small quantities over the day (a thermos of green tea* , slightly-caffeinated candy every hour or two, etc.) rather than spiking levels first thing in the morning.

* And there's an amino acid in green tea, l-theanine, that seems to cancel out some of the jitteriness.

binarymax• 16 years ago

How do these drugs effect memory? If you can tear through books while on Provigil, is what you learned well retained when your brain reverts to its "scrappier state"?

zkirill• 16 years ago

My concern is that once you start taking these drugs to artificially boost your intelligence your natural ability to concentrate without them might atrophy because it's no longer used. I guess this isn't an issue if you only take them every now and then, but isn't it a better idea to seek alternate ways to energize your brain that use your own body such as having a solid exercise routine, proper diet and getting enough sleep?

confuzatron• 16 years ago

If anyone needs smart drugs it's Johann Hari. That he's currently running in scrappy mode does explain the sloppiness of his journalism though.

(Note to downvoter: I say this because he's notorious for peppering his feel-good rants with factual inaccuracies)

swombat5• 16 years ago

My experience was similar. I wouldn't say it kills all your creativity, but it makes it slightly more unnatural to practice lateral thinking. That said, I have come up with some great ideas while on Modafinil.

My best tips if you're going to use this drug is:

1) Take a very small dose. 50mg (taken around 8 or 9) is usually more than enough to get me through the day. Occasionally I used to take a 25mg bump in the early afternoon which carried over the hyper feeling into the early evening.

2) Try it out on a day when you're by yourself first, so you understand how it changes your perception of the world, because it does alter your perception. You might be quicker to make decisions or react to things, and you need to understand this and compensate for it before you interact with other people. If you can't be alone, at least tell your partner about it so they understand that you might behave slightly differently over that period (possibly more aggressively...).

3) The best way to make the most of it, for me, has been to prepare a solid list of big items that I want to get through before I take it, so I don't have to think about what to do next. Modafinil allows you to focus really well on whatever it is you decide to do, but it really doesn't help your executive ability (i.e. deciding what to do). I did once find myself having a really solid, focused, deep, 6-hour session of World of Warcraft. Don't give yourself too much opportunity to wander, or you'll find yourself doing anything that comes to your mind (whether that's reading a book, cleaning the kitchen, reorganising your office, or actually doing some productive work). Best to decide ahead of time so you don't fall into that trap.

awakeasleep• 16 years ago

I totally agree with the small dose tip. Experiments among my friends and family lead me to recommend 25-50 mg as a sweet spot between effectivity and side effects. 200mg is an overdose obscured by modafinil's relatively benign effect profile and people's expectation of ill effects from drug use.

CoffeeDregs• 16 years ago

1) Totally agree. 100 mg made me nutty, aggressive; 50 mg still made me a bit agressive; 25mg is just right and makes me quite alert all day without making me an aggressive drone.

2) Totally agree. See #1, but I definitely look back at some interactions-while-on-100mg (super judgmental, aggressive) and think that I would have handled them better if not on modafinil. Interactions with my wife/kids can suffer.

3) Definitely. Taking modafinil without a plan leads to reading every article on Hacker News.

Generally, I consider modafinil to be a tool. As when using a hammer, I don't look to accomplish tasks that don't benefit from the tool.

phowat• 16 years ago

I took ritalin for about a month to be able to play longer stretches of online poker. During the time I thought I was doing great but after reviewing my sessions later I discovered I was making a bunch of silly mistakes I don't think I would have done otherwise. And it was usually when I was already deep into the session, when I would otherwise have already stopped playing. After a month I found out that the amount of extra money was marginally paying for the cost of the drugs and stopped (yes, I played really small stakes). I know it's just anecdotal evidence and even my own sample size ( just one month ) is small but I think it's worth sharing.

zaidf• 16 years ago

I would say, if anything, I've had the opposite experience with adderall. I've had some crazy creative bursts. I am probably the exception because almost everyone I talk with has the opposite experience.

Construct8• 16 years ago

Taking Modafinil will not make you smarter, but it will heavily diminish the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Remember, the primary indications for this medication are narcolepsy, sleep apnea, and excessive daytime sleepiness.

It also increases dopamine and norepinephrine activity in certain areas of the brain, similar to Adderall and Ritalin, so it will boost your concentration. It actually showed a positive effect on concentration in ADHD treatment trials, but the FDA declined to approve it for that purpose due to some concerns over a rare skin-rash disorder. Many people are under the misconception that it is not a stimulant, but it most certainly is.

As for controlled, double-blind trials, the results are not promising in non-sleep-deprived individuals. Controlled tests tend to show self-reported increases in restlessness, aggression, and anxiety, but the standardized cognitive and memory tests show very little, if any, improvement in the Modafinil groups. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 for more).

Finally, don't try to import Modafinil (Provigil) into the US without a prescription. It is a Schedule IV controlled substance and the legal ramifications for importing a controlled substance can be serious. If you're still eager to try it outside of a doctor's supervision, which I definitely do not recommend, then know that Adrafinil is metabolized (partly) to Modafinil within the body but is not a controlled substance. Importing it is a still a gray area, though.

Bottom line: Getting a healthy amount of sleep should be your #1 goal for cognitive improvement. If that isn't actually possible, then Modafinil could be helpful for reversing the effects of sleep deprivation. If concentration is your problem, Modafinil may help you, but you'd probably be better off pursuing proper ADHD treatment with a medication approved for ADHD.

j_baker3• 16 years ago

One important thing that's worth noting: Just because you have trouble concentrating doesn't mean you have ADHD. There are a lot of other things that could cause that.

csomar2• 16 years ago

I met a good number of people who have problems in concentration. They can't focus even in the smallest tasks, especially if it is new and difficult (complicated). May be it's just fears that disturb their concentration.

Construct8• 16 years ago

Excellent point, and definitely worth pointing out.

It's amazing how many people are quick to self-diagnose ADHD, but have no problem spending hours on their hobbies or interesting projects. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in the coding community who never has problems concentrating on uninteresting projects.

radu_floricica• 16 years ago

I remember Adrafinil having rather nasty side effects with long term use. Something to do with liver damage.

Construct8• 16 years ago

It is supposedly hard on the liver. I'd strongly recommend not dosing any medication without a doctor's supervision no matter what, and this is one more reason to avoid going that route.

skinnymuch• 16 years ago

is this true? its not uncommon to see an early 20something drink a decent amount regularly on weekends for years and still end up okay. I find it hard to believe adrafinil could do more damage than that.

tlrobinson• 16 years ago

I suppose the claim of "make you smarter" depends a lot on your definition of "smart". If it includes the ability to concentrate then perhaps it does make you "smarter".

mindcreek2• 16 years ago

I'm dyslexic, I cannot write with a pen and even though my discrete math is good I struggled throughout my school life and computer science degree with calculus and differentials etc.

In my second year in university one of my teachers suggested to me I might be dyslexic and later I found a professor in an university hospital who deals with ADD and dyslexia in younger patients. She suggested to me Ritalin and then concerta which I didn't want to use then, after school when I really needed the 6-7 hour coding marathons for the projects I'm working on I strated using concerta and ritalin here is my experience.

1. My concentration is longer and more productive, the urge to continuously get up and do something else is gone. 2. As far as 3 years go I had no noticeable side effects, I asked my doctor about it and he told me methylfenidaat hydroclorine which is the active ingredient in both drugs is considered to safe and no long term effect are observed to date(about 20 years or so) 3. The drugs do not cause addiction because I had periods without the drugs one 6 months one three months just to prove myself I can do without them so far both were uneventful Except I went back to my old self. 4. My IQ or creativity seems unaffected by the drug I'm always the same. 5. I was forgetting little things my keys wallet phone back then after the drugs I don't. 6. If I forget to take the drug my wife or colleagues ask me If I forgot to take my pills today, so the difference is noticeable from the outside. 7. Both drugs are strictly controlled substances in Turkey so I have to struggle with bureaucracy every month for refills, renewals.

Thanks for reading If you have any question I'll try to check the comments later.

bkj123• 16 years ago

Do you mind telling what dosages you were taking? Thank you.

mindcreek2• 16 years ago

36 mg concerta daily in the morning it usually keeps me on 12 hours or so.

or a 10mg ritalin which keeps the effect about 5 hours or so so I can take another if it will be a long nigth, taking concerta in the nigth is not a good idea because you will burn out and wont be able to sleep if you decide to.

Concerta is a small container with a laser drilled hole and a constant delivery mechanism for 12 hours or so and ritalin is bumpier on the dosage but concerta is more expensive about 120$ in Turkey for a month worth refill where ritalin is only 20$ for a month excluding the doctors fee which is 150$ so it costs around 200$ for a month and no insurance scheme covers it.

proexploit• 16 years ago

I'm not going to speak out for or against the use of smart drugs, but please note that although Adrafinil does metabolize to Modafinil and thus appears to be a legal (depending on your location) alternative, it can damage your liver and cause stomach pain.

digitailor10• 16 years ago

I have a legal prescription for 200 mg Provigil.

Many of the comments here have factual inaccuracies.

- Provigil is Schedule IV, which is not highly restricted, and is prescribed on regular scrip paper, not DEA paper.

- Some STATES restrict its dispersal more stringently, like New York, even with a scrip. Others do not, like California.

- Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant. Its action is currently described as "unknown."

This information comes from my doctor and my doctor's PDR.

EDIT: for grammar error, and mistake about its schedule level.

j_baker3• 16 years ago

"Provigil is NOT a Schedule IV drug. It is prescribed on regular prescription paper, NOT DEA paper."

I think you have it backwards. Schedule IV drugs are prescription-only, but don't require DEA papers like Schedule II drugs do (such as Adderall, Ritalin, etc). They aren't as highly regulated, but they do still require a prescription.

digitailor10• 16 years ago

You are correct; I forgot IV is not very stringent.

digitailor10• 16 years ago

Incidentally, I have not yet found the harmful effects on creativity that the author has, but I do not take it every day. I have taken it in two week stretches with no loss of creativity. An extremely successful and creative entrepreneur I know takes it daily for narcolepsy.

seanmcq• 16 years ago

I can verify this behavior on Provigil. You shine at your full brilliance, but become incapable of having unique/new thoughts.

I cut it completely, but I'm curious to see if the author has luck oscillating on it.

jedwhite• 16 years ago

Funnily enough I get a similar result from a good night's sleep, not eating crap, and going for a ride on my bike. It also helps weight loss. :)

beefman2• 16 years ago

Try stablon.

beefman2• 16 years ago

No seriously. I've tried most of the smart drugs in existence, had exactly the same reaction to modafinil, and found stablon does much of the same but without the drawback mentioned. YMMV, of course.

nickpinkston• 16 years ago

I resisted for many years, but I recently got a script for Adderall, and it's made me a better thinker and doer. I haven't experienced the lack of creativity that some report - on the contrary actually. I've also found that I sleep better - which is actually common my doctor says.

I've been taking 15mg morning and after-lunch, but not on weekends so as to reduce my dependency and tolerance to it. This has worked well so far.

I'm not sure if perhaps people who have the gene coding for reduced dopamine re-uptake (i.e. a big predictor of ADD diagnoses - like myself) are the ones who get the strongest benefits and the reports of bad reactions could possibly be from those without this genotype?

csomar2• 16 years ago

Isn't their a natural counterpart? Like a mind hack or something similar. I found myself ,in the last week, deeply concentrating and working on something that is very boring and I usually tend to lose concentration on it very quickly. I was surprised how the hours passed without complaints.

May be I ate something special that made that day goes like that, but I felt like I fall into that deep concentration state of mind. My creative abilities weren't touched, though.

markbao• 16 years ago

So you smoke some weed and take modafinil to get both?

keefe• 16 years ago

>Creative thoughts don't come to you any more.

I've taken more than my share of modafinil and I've never experienced this.

baddox• 16 years ago

> Is this the equivalent of athletes taking steroids?

Yes, they are equivalent, and both should be legal.

My dalliance with smart drugs - and the lesson I learned

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