Ask HN: Independant Consulting

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1830872

by moron4hire • 16 years ago

20 25 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

If I stick with my current salary position, by this time next year I should have the cash I need to settle my debts, take off work for six months, and focus on building some sort of software firm (I have plans, but they're outside the scope of this post). However, I've become rather disgruntled and burnt out with my current position and am thinking that maybe independent consulting for a few short term contracts would be a good way to traverse the mean time.

I have two questions, 1) should I really bother to settle my debts? If I build the debt payments into my 6 month cash reserve, it cuts my wait time in half. But, I'm afraid I'm being impatient. 2) I have no experience doing independant contracts. What are some things I could expect? I assume I could probably work out 1099 paperwork through my mother's LLC (where I'm ready in a year, she just jumped in a week ago). I have what I think is a very solid resume for 6 years of experience, having lead two dev teams in the past three years, but I don't have any sexy tech like RoR or Django, nor any certs for my .NET and MSSQL experience.

I've been talking about and planning my own business for the last three years. I make occasional progress, but I'm getting impatient. My last effort towards this goal was to move from rural central PA to Philadelphia a year ago. This got me the salary I needed to accelerate my debt payoff and I've been making excellent networking contacts along the way. But it's been a hard, disappointing slog at work due to a corporate culture that I (and most of my programmer coworkers and predecessors) feel is designed to undermine the employee's self esteem. I put out several applications to other salary positions to have some way to get out, but given my timeline I think the independant route has better potential. (Who wants to hire someone for less than a year?)

andrewtbham2• 16 years ago

I have been doing independent consulting for four years and for me it has been far more lucrative than keeping a normal job. you need to be a competent programmer, but the key is having contacts, getting jobs, and getting people to like you. I have mostly made money working for business with java and .net. most Ror jobs pay way less.

jon_dahl• 16 years ago

most Ror jobs pay way less.

Wide variability here, though. I've never had trouble finding Rails gigs around $125/hour, and have done some at higher rates.

(Edited for typo.)

bravura• 16 years ago

Do you get excited by pitching, doing sales, hustling leads, negotiating deals, and reading contracts yourself? Because this is half the work of being an independent consultant. You're both the biz guy and the tech guy, and if you don't like being the biz guy you're going to HATE being a consultant.

But it's been a hard, disappointing slog at work.

For most people, it can be an even longer, harder slog to find clients.

I put out several applications to other salary positions to have some way to get out, but given my timeline I think the independant route has better potential.

In all likelihood, it will take you far more time to find your first few clients than it will to get a full-time position. Finding clients is a crapshoot, and it takes a lot of time. Even if you do find a client, it usually takes longer to close a consulting deal than to get hired for a job. What are you going to do if you don't find clients in time?

I have what I think is a very solid resume for 6 years of experience, having lead two dev teams in the past three years, but I don't have any sexy tech like RoR or Django, nor any certs for my .NET and MSSQL experience.

What kind of consulting will you do? Without this details, it's difficult to comment on how you might acquire clients.

moron4hire4• 16 years ago

For most people, it can be an even longer, harder slog to find clients.

Yeah, I think there's something unique about this current place. I've been in a lot of different work environments, and this one has been the worst.

Sales hustling: I'm willing to learn. I know it's going to be unlike most of the work I've done, but that's actually part of why it excites me--a new challenge. In times past when I've had very close working relationships with my employers' clients, I've enjoyed hashing their needs out, and I think this will also be vital experience for my some-day-business-with-employees.

My primary experience is in building business intelligence apps on ASP.NET with SQL Server. I'm a little weak on UI design (an issue I'm actively working on), but otherwise I'm strong in every other "layer". I have no doubts I could pick up Java again, or any other language, or any other vendor's RDBMS; I'm a hacker by nature. I also have experience with business analysis and writing technical documentation. I am unfortunately very lite on administering things, i.e. the care and tending of a live database or application server.

Your comments on time issues are noted.

notauser• 16 years ago

The other thing that's hard to explain about consulting to people who don't do it is that even when you do have work managing the pipeline of new work is very hard.

You don't always know when the current contract is going to end. (And will they be able to pay for this month?)

So you may have more work than you can handle - but you also have to keep fishing for more work to ensure that you won't have unexpected down time. And that puts you under pressure because you are creating demand you often can't fulfill.

It may be easier if you are Yet Another Generic Common Technology Contractor because you can always trade leads with a pool of friends/colleagues.

donniefitz2• 16 years ago

In addition to the uncertainty of landing clients, there's the issue of actually getting paid. It may take 3 weeks to a month to land a client, another few weeks to be able to actually start working, a few weeks to send your first invoince but if that client turns out to be a flake with money, you have a lot of time into a loosing deal and you have start over. It aint easy consulting.

gallerytungsten• 16 years ago

Bravura really gets to the heart of the matter. A consulting business, or any business, can only survive as long as it has clients. Do you have any? If not, start finding them now, while you're still employed.

When I wanted to quit my job, I told the boss I could only work 30 hours a week for them. I was so valuable to them that they didn't protest at all. I set my schedule as 1pm to 7pm; and then spent the mornings getting my business going. About a year later, I knew I could do it and quit my job.

Omnipresent• 16 years ago

I am not sure about Philadelphia but there are lots of 6-12 month contracts in Washington, DC which involve you working on Govt Contracts. Most of the positions are for Java/.NET. If you are willing to relocate for 6ish months then it might be worth a try to check out jobs on dice (contract to hire etc). Being and independent contractor, don't expect to have work coming your way as soon as you decide to become and independent contractor (unless you have networks who are willing to give you 1099 right now). Another option is to hide from your employer that you only need work for less than a year...

moron4hire4• 16 years ago

Ah yes, this is an excellent point and reminds me of some extended contacts that I could refresh. Thanks.

bbarthel• 16 years ago

Just a couple of words of warning on government contracts.

1) Some will require a government clearance. This will take time, and you will be competing against folks who already have the clearance. So you will need to convince them you are worth the wait - a notoriously difficult proposition unless you already have work with them.

2) The timeline from lead to getting paid is long. I would expect at least a month or two from when you start working on the contract until the money comes in, to say nothing of the time to actually get started on the contract.

3) The end of the year is a tough time to try to get added to a contract - everyone is running out of money. In some cases you might get lucky and find a project with a surplus that is looking to spend it before the end of the year, but in my experience those are usually the exceptions as opposed to the rule.

In short, unless you already have the paperwork in hand, I wouldn't bother if you are only looking for 6-12 months.

alanstorm• 16 years ago

Pay off your debts, if only because they're one less thing to distract from whatever you're working on at the time, and because reducing your monthly living costs will be a huge win when you start your company and/or consulting.

Don't quit your job to start looking for independent contracts. Take on a small side gig or two while you're at your current job to work in your off hours. This will give you a taste of what independent consulting is like and the challenges involved. Also, in independent consulting people don't care about certification, they care about you solving their problems.

Also, your questions of "Who wants to hire someone for less than a year?" makes it sounds like you're a good candidate for third party agency consulting. That's where Company A doesn't want to commit to a full time employees, so they hire a consultant from Company B. You're considered a temporary employee for Company B while working at Company A. Contract terms are usually fixed, but will often go month to month once the initial term is up. Some are often contact-to-hire. Certification will help you negotiate your rate with Company B, but isn't necessary, and there's a HUGE number of .NET jobs that use this kind of consulting.

The downside is the consulting firm (Company B) takes a chunk of money before passing you a check. The counter-point is these firms often get contracts that would never be handed out on an independent consultant, and the upside for you is 40/hours a week of stable employment for a period of time, and a loose commitment that makes it easier to do side work and/or plan for your future. If you want to find a few of these consulting firms just search Dice for job listings.

smallegan• 16 years ago

I'd suggest independent contracting whether you were going to start your own business or not. So I vote yes!

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1831130

larrykubin• 16 years ago

I quit my job due to similar feelings back in 2007. Here is my report after 3.5 years:

It's been completely worth it. I've gotten to work on projects in so many different areas - food and beverage, music, video games, law, film, academic, science, the list goes on and on. So many intelligent people in different areas have many exciting ideas and they need YOUR help to do it.

Averaging out what I have earned the past three years, I haven't made more or less money than I did at the job I quit. However, there are certain other benefits -- I haven't set an alarm clock in over three years, I am outside in the sun right now on my laptop enjoying a beer, I have a small amount of equity in a few businesses, and I haven't had to do a "self evaluation" or had an Outlook calendar constantly open that is scheduled with many meetings about meetings. That said, I have also been up working at 2am many days in the past few months, haven't had a paid vacation, have been paid late many times, have no idea what I'm going to be doing in December, and there are many apps and servers running that have my name on them and could go wrong any minute, and I haven't been able to expand into something bigger. Good times!

My advice to you: convince 3 people to pay you money before you quit. If you can't find the clients now, then you will still have trouble when you quit. Once you knock out the first few, you should be able to convince others that you are reliable, can finish the job, and do good work.

moron4hire4• 16 years ago

I have also been up working at 2am many days

Well then, I will have something familiar to look forward to! :)

shareme• 16 years ago

Can you do a fourth option?

Do a project using non MS.NET/MSSQL on the side in a different industry knowledbase as you do not want piss off your current employer.

In other words you will be using that side project to see if you can get marketing momentum for independent consulting. That way you know for sure before you jump, which is a better idea.

Have you accessed how strong your list of contacts is at this time yet? That is something to be considered as well.

SkyMarshal• 16 years ago

Definitely pay off your debts. The US is still hanging over the precipice of a deflationary recession/depression, that only massive government stimulus and Fed intervention has been able to prevent so far, but it's not clear how permanent that success is. Way too much bad debt in the system that is tending toward default, and Foreclosuregate isn't helping.

In deflation, the cost of debt is exacerbated. The payments and interest stay the same, but there's less money in the economy, hence increased odds of lower income, hence increased odds that the same debt consumes a larger portion of your income.

Don't get caught with your pants down should things go south, get rid of it.

phillytom• 16 years ago

I was an independent consultant for almost 10 years - the first year or two can be the toughest. One of the best pieces of advice that I got before I started was that you know that you're ready to be a consultant when people are calling you and offering you money to do work for them (i.e. your network and reputation is already mature). If you resort to a brokered arrangement the rates aren't nearly as compelling. If you think you've got contract work that will take you through your time period, go for it.

If you want to discuss further, or are interested in discussing F/T work (the company I work at - Monetate - is hiring in the Philly area) feel free to email tjanofsky at monetate dot com.

akamaka• 16 years ago

I've been doing independent consulting on and off for many years, but there have been many times when the work wasn't there for me to pay the bills, and I had to go back to a regular day job.

Early on, I also missed several good opportunities because of my lack of sales experience.

Don't quit your job until you've secured some small, part-time independent work. Spend as long as you can doing both, and don't quit your day job until your workload gets too big.

brudgers• 16 years ago

The two questions:

1. Prepaying debts reduces your cash in hand and hence your flexibility. Running out of money is the biggest risk for a startup. Long term debt can extend your runway at the expense of interest. The downside is that cash in hand makes it more difficult to be really cheap.

2. If your goal is to have a software firm, doing consulting is a potential distraction because you will not be able to leave your customers hanging after six months, and the potential revenue stream will look better than not being paid.

Based on your post, you might look at sticking it out for a year as a first step in making your startup happen. My advice is that if you leave, then leave to do the startup.

Good luck.

deltasquare4• 16 years ago

I just left my well-paying job to start working on my idea about 4 months back. I didn't have much savings (I've been hasty to quit my job), so I am working on consulting gigs part time. It pays enough to cover my bills and petty expenses related to my project.

As @bravura mentioned, selling yourself is the biggest challenge you have in order to get good consulting work. If you go for small gigs that you can do in your free time, you can quit when you feel comfortable doing it.

PS: It's always better to settle your debt before you start living off inconsistant income.

clark-kent• 16 years ago

A year from now is not that far off. Just keep your job and pay off the debt. Work on your business as a side project. You can work on your side project 1hr a day, some days 10 - 30mins and some weekends 3hrs. As they say "drops of water makes an ocean". If you slug it out, by this time next year, you would be out of debt with cash reserves and possibly a finished product. You may even already have customers. Find positive things you like about your current job and focus on them.

rwhitman• 16 years ago

Moving to Philly is certainly a step up from central PA, but I'll tell you this as someone from PA myself - finding decent work in Philly is a real challenge. If you are unhappy still, I really suggest another relocation to an even bigger tech market. That was game-changing for my business.

I would also suggest not only killing your debts but saving a good cushion as well. As soon as you go independent you will be relying on savings and debt to cover your living expenses.

And beef up your skillset - learn the newest sexiest stuff, even if it hurts. As a freelance developer if you don't keep up with the latest tech on a regular basis you will be in serious trouble

patrickgzill• 16 years ago

I have to second this - almost every smart up and coming network/programming/security guy in the area I live in, that I know, is either: 1) married/has family in the area and that is why he stays

2) has gone on to better things in Baltimore/WashDC corridor, Delaware, or other places.

One of the guys I know went to Cambridge on full scholarship and ended up working at 2 well-known startups, one after the other. He hasn't been back to PA in years :-)

andrewtbham2• 16 years ago

expect problems collecting, people not wanting to pay, people wanting a discount, people paying late... etc. usually big companies are easier to collect than small companies. it's a soft skill because you have to be firm to get your money, but you don't won't to be a jerk and not get any more business.

moron4hire4• 16 years ago

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I'm going to keep looking for other work as long as I can be confident to maintain my current salary and take care of this debt issue first.

My phone has been ringing off the hook from recruiters wanting to place me (though I've dealt with plenty of recruiters before, that doesn't necessarily mean anything). I just got contacted by a friend-of-a-friend with a small contract for about a week's worth of work; that will be nice to helping with the debt issue. And I actually just got an email for an interview at a company with a really excellent benefits package. So, at the very least, it looks like I can get out of my bad situation.

Ask HN: Independant Consulting

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