Apple and the future of Java

http://www.subfurther.com/blog/?p=1305

by pietrofmaggi • 16 years ago

111 44 16 years ago

stcredzero3• 16 years ago

I looked at javax.sound yesterday and estimated it would take me 4-6 weeks, full-time, to do a production-quailty port using Core Audio. I’ll bid the project out at $20,000.

How about Kickstarter?

Desktop Java is a ruinously expensive legacy that they need to do something about.

All the angry screeds against Steve Jobs won’t change the fact that this is the “ball and chain” that’s pulling Java below the waves.

I think attempting to do cross-platform UIs held Smalltalk back as well. You either have Least Common Denominator native UIs that stink, or emulated UIs that don't look native. "Cross Platform" failed for the general public end-user. Web Apps took up their niche.

sudont• 16 years ago

L.C.D. UIs are a sign of a bad designer. Remember the Backblaze article on the frontpage from last week?

http://blog.backblaze.com/2008/12/15/10-rules-for-how-to-wri...

While the underlying logic should be the same, each UI should be leveraged towards whatever OS is running the app. It requires a bit of across-the-aisle thinking to create a decent UI for the other OS, but it's do-able.

UI design should be more like a cross-channel ad campaign (print, web and TV) than porting.

aphexairlines3• 16 years ago

Eclipse is cross-platform, comes with a disgusting component system (OSGi), pillages all your RAM, and yet is still arguably the most popular IDE these days.

_delirium• 16 years ago

Firefox is quite popular too, and uses its own custom cross-platform UI toolkit.

stcredzero3• 16 years ago

How many general-public end-user apps are built with SWT?

bad_user• 16 years ago

Apple open-sourcing their work to be included in OpenJDK would also require copyright-assignment to Oracle.

Not going to happen.

Also, get the crappy APIs out of Java SE, like AWT and Swing, then the Java SE "standard" and the TCK needs updating, and then you've got a subset suitable for mobile phones, for which Oracle cannot collect revenue anymore.

Not going to happen.

NathanKP2• 16 years ago

I agree with the main premise of the article: that Steve Jobs isn't the one dealing a blow to Java, he is just getting rid of the white elephant that is already on its way down.

Seriously Apple does not have that much of a market share in the desktop and laptop field, and while it is a growing share, it is far from the market majority. Therefore, to think that Jobs is dealing a major blow to Java by not factory installing Java on a machine which is only going to sell to a small percentage of the market doesn't make sense.

If Java is losing popularity as a desktop app programming language it won't be because of Apple.

glhaynes• 16 years ago

I agree that it's not the primary cause of Java's decline — as if it had far to go aside from theoretically — as a desktop system. Apple's moves seem these days to signal or drive the industry direction, though, so if Apple's deprecation isn't a blow, it's at least a bellwether.

NathanKP2• 16 years ago

    bellwether
    noun
    harbinger, herald, indicator, predictor

Thanks for teaching me a new word.

dabeeeenster• 16 years ago

Are Apple going to ship any sort of Java runtime with 10.7? I (and some of my team) use Intellij on OSX. Are we not going to be able to upgrade to 10.7?

alexyoung• 16 years ago

They haven't said yet, but: "Developers should not rely on the Apple-supplied Java runtime being present in future versions of Mac OS X."

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/Ja...

cosmicray• 16 years ago

While Apple hasn't been specific, I'm taking that to mean "no pre-installed JVM beginning with 10.7". Apple only mentioned 10.7 this past week (with very few specifics). Wikipedia suggests that the release date for 10.7 will be 'Summer 2011'. The problem may be real, but there is time to find solutions.

avar• 16 years ago

You were able to install Intellij on top of OSX. What's stopping you from installing Java too?

babblefrog• 16 years ago

Where do you get this Java from to install on OSX? I just checked the Oracle Java site, and they only have it for Solaris, Linux, and Windows.

frou_dh• 16 years ago

I think the problems with [non-native] GUIs on the Mac are compounded by their developers likely not having as much passion for look & feel as Cocoa-heads to start with, regardless of the quality of the APIs.

I was under the impression that the IntelliJ IDE was a diamond, then I saw a dude use it in a screencast and the design looked grim.

allertonm• 16 years ago

I wouldn't go so far as to say grim - but it definitely shows that even with the best of efforts, Swing is never going to cut it for non-developer applications. IntelliJ is about as good as Swing apps get on OSX.

Gotta feel for the JetBrains guys, I have a feeling that a good chunk of their users are on Macs and it's not clear that they'll have a way forward. It does look to me like Eclipse will be a viable option in future. Which, as an IntelliJ fan using a Mac, doesn't make me super happy.

That said, I think the original article was spot-on.

sutro• 16 years ago

This could be a way forward for an open Swing toolkit on Mac:

http://lists.apple.com/archives/java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00493.h...

strlen• 16 years ago

IntelliJ does use JNA quite extensive, already, on the Mac. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine more extensive use of JNA e.g., for custom widgets.

JetBrains guys are very smart (I dislike Java as a language, but I continue to be impressed by IntelliJ) and I have no doubt they'd be able to switch a native layer if needed: they have all the motivation to (it's a commercial product).

towndrunk• 16 years ago

Nice UI's can be done on the mac with swing. As you mention they require passion. Take a look at what this guy has built with Swing. http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/

mnutt• 16 years ago

Back when I worked at LimeWire (probably the largest Swing install base in the world) I played around with MacWidgets. It's really an admirable effort, but trying to emulate Cocoa in Java always feels a little off. It's sort of an Uncanny Valley effect...you can't easily point out what's wrong, but you know it's not quite right.

Either build a real Cocoa interface, or go LimeWire's route and don't make it look native at all.

michaelneale2• 16 years ago

IDEA (IntelliJ IDE) is a diamond - but not visually. In terms of editing (and this applies to scala, ruby, javascript as well as java) the experience is amazing - it really understands what you are doing.

But it is the ugliest thing... just horrible, but if you can get past that, it is a great tool.

OS-X users are a big paying contingent for Jetbrains - so I expect they will find a way, one way or another, to make it run well.

geophile• 16 years ago

Huh? I don't get this at all. IntelliJ is a phenomenally great IDE. I'm sure that is blinding me to the ugliness you're seeing. But thinking about just the visual elements, I still don't see your point. What exactly is the problem?

Now Eclipse -- that's ugly, inside and out.

acqq• 16 years ago

> The Java crowd will (...) have to make a choice: either use Windows or Linux for development, or get away from the IDEs (...) on the Mac.

According to archgrove's post, Eclipse works on OpenJDK:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1820288

So Java crowd can continue to develop on Mac in Eclipse even without Apple-maintained Java in OSX.

m0nastic• 16 years ago

I don't think Apple's decision is going to be a death-rattle to Java on OS X, but it provides an interesting perspective.

If nothing else, it's provided the groundwork for my next software development project. The vast majority of tools my industry uses to perform a specific type of testing are Java-based, and more and more folks I run into are using Macs.

Hoff• 16 years ago

Apple plays a long game, and they're not afraid to toss stuff under the bus. Now consider what these Apple engineers might now be working on, if not Oracle's Java and JVM pieces. Some language past Java? A replacement for Objective C? Both?

Perceval• 16 years ago

Doubtful that Objective C would be replaced. Still requires continual improvements and updates.

The engineers might now work on MacRuby, which is rumored to be the up-and-coming second language on OS X real soon now.

tjogin• 16 years ago

I think so too. MacRuby is perfect for Apple, as they control its implementation, and the syntax is far more approachable than Objective-C is. Also, no performance penalty when compiled, unless I'm mistaking.

Thinking on it, I'd only be slightly surprised (and extremely delighted) if native/official (as opposed to experimental) MacRuby support for Xcode and the new Mac App Store was announced at the next WWDC.

__david__• 16 years ago

I think he makes a good case for himself in the article, though I wonder how much effort it really costs to maintain an already written port. However, he is quite mistaken about the possible side effects of Apple licensing the code under the GPL:

> The company would want nothing less than an absolutely forensic code analysis to ensure there are no loopholes, stray imports or links, or anything else that a creative FSF lawyer could use to claim that Mac OS X links against the GPL’ed OpenJDK and must therefore itself be GPL’ed.

That is not how the GPL works. The GPL doesn't apply to the copyright holder (owner) of the code. The GPL applies to all the people who get the code from the owner. The owner can do what every they want.

jshen• 16 years ago

I'm confused by everyone focusing on Java. "Java's on the decline", "I don't mind if Java goes away", etc, etc.

This is really about the JVM and the JVM is on the rise. I have no idea what impact this decision will have, but if it's negative if affects a lot more than Java.

stefanve• 16 years ago

am I the only one who thinks JDK 7 (for OSX) will be released by Oracle when Lion is launched? at the end of last year they released JavaME 3 for osx. so it wouldn't be that far off

Apple and the future of Java

Related Stories