Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

by yread • 8 years ago

141 129 8 years ago

dutchnews.nl

yread2• 8 years ago

PeterisP• 8 years ago

Yes.

ryanlol• 8 years ago

Article says detained, not arrested.

huhtenberg7• 8 years ago

Swiss newspaper article also says (Google-translated):

    Why the two were brought back to Russia and not 
    prosecuted in the Netherlands or transferred to
    Switzerland, neither the Dutch military intelligence 
    nor other requested authorities wanted to explain. 
    
    It is also unknown what they did in the Netherlands.

DyslexicAtheist2• 8 years ago

would you have a link please?

beatlebum• 8 years ago

Same thing (former police officer here).

elmo2you2• 8 years ago

There could be several reasons for not arresting these "spies". First, there might have been just suspicions but no real evidence, something that would make prosecuting these men problematic and also cause a significant diplomatic struggle for the Dutch. Secondly, the evidence itself might expose sources and methods that the Dutch would not like to be exposed in a publicly prosecuted legal case. Third, the NRC article suggests that these individuals might have been two earlier evicted Russian embassy employees, in which case they might even have been immune to arrest.

The timing of these allegations are at best suspect. If the allegations are true, it would definitely not look great on Russia. But it might have been about Russia trying to get insight into what they are up against in the whole Novichok debacle. Not nice, but something (m)any governments might try, in a case like this.

It should also be noted that Holland is not an impartial party when it comes to Russia. One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev and the subsequent separation of Crimea and the eastern part of the country that it triggered. Shell, just as key American players who made similar deals, will not be happy about how events unfolded in the Ukraine. Furthermore, Shell has a substantial leverage within Dutch politics and government. Of course, none of that proves that the Dutch can not be trusted, but it might be wise to at least not blindly believe whatever Russia related news comes from them.

JumpCrisscross3• 8 years ago

One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev

Royal Dutch Shell’s 20% interest in Rosneft [1], a Russian oil company, eclipses the its exposure to Ukraine. This has been a sticking point at every sanctions crossroads, with the Dutch requiring extraordinary evidence before proceeding.

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/gene...

steveharman• 8 years ago

They weren't spies, they were tourists. We get them all the time here in the UK.

raverbashing• 8 years ago

Just walking around, doing nothing suspicious and carrying nothing special.

coldtea6• 8 years ago

Well, carrying whatever some secret service said they were carrying (and which we should take their word for it) in an ongoing effort to revive the Cold War...

Perhaps they even had WMDs on them...

goodmachine• 8 years ago

Almost certainly. My guess is that they were innocent geometry fans, visiting 'Escher in het Paleis' - a permanent exhibition of the works of Maurits Cornelis Escher located in a former Royal palace. It's pretty cool.

https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/destinations/the-hagu...

bryanlarsen• 8 years ago

Note for those who don't get the sarcasm: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/13/russian-explanat...

MichaelMoser1233• 8 years ago

How did the spys manage to avoid poisening themselve with the nerve agent in the process? Did they walk around in a protective suite? That might have raised some suspicions...

foldr12• 8 years ago

By keeping it in a sealed container. A nerve agent that could only be handled by someone wearing a protective suit wouldn't be very practical.

baybal2• 8 years ago

Novicek was likely prepared on site, the two constituent chemicals are inert till until mixed.

myth_drannon• 8 years ago

Since Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK, these were two friendly family guys on vacation... ehh, wait a sec, so they are... ? You know...

That's the current narrative Russian TV is trying to push.

lucozade5• 8 years ago

If the Russian gay community start popping over for holidays in Salisbury, they're going to be mightily disappointed [0].

[0] http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_...

grkvlt• 8 years ago

Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK

Firstly, I think Brighton and Hove[0] would have something to say about that. Secondly, this is 2018, and it's quite alright to be gay these days!

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_community_of_Brighton_and...

kushti3• 8 years ago

I simply can not find source in the original Swiss article. The most relevant part of the article is:

The Federal Intelligence Service (NDB) confirms on request that the Swiss authorities are aware of "the case of the Russian spies who were discovered in the Hague and then taken away". NDB communications chief Isabelle Graber also writes: "The NDB has actively participated in this operation, together with its Dutch and British partners." This has contributed to the "prevention of illegal actions against a critical Swiss infrastructure".

How's that related to the two guys detained in Netherlands? I mean, the accusation of them being targeted Swiss lab?

How can I be sure this is not a sensationalist fantasy of a journo?

It would be good to publish the full report from NDB.

AlexeyParamonov6• 8 years ago

Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

neffy3• 8 years ago

That is one of the interesting things about all this - but there are also much easier ways to do false flag operations.

The evidence of this and previous assassination attempts is either there´s some idiot at the top of Soviet intelligence who just has to be creative, or far more likely the whole point is to send a very public message to the rather large Russian diaspora, that no matter how far they run, Mother Russia is looking over their shoulder.

For that purpose, a quiet inconspicuous assassination would be totally pointless.

azangru10• 8 years ago

Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?

wruza2• 8 years ago

To do what you describe they simply send guys from a well-known ‘republic’, which is all green light on any crime you have in your russian crime book. All russians understand this language, and there is no reason to use wmds for that. If it was a message, it must be very secret language of selected few, not for a diaspora. I really doubt that there is a thing like ‘looking over their shoulder’ since what’s the reason for that? Why not just look over all shoulders?

The fact that no one understands (or asks himself) how these irrational political actions take place at all shows that they are smarter than you may think. Or that they are just complete idiots. Choose your enemy and good luck with that. Or don’t and stay aware.

But let’s not be fooled by politics, I already feel from these hn discussions how russians are more and more viewed as monkeys with grenades and even if it wasn’t a someones goal, it was totally reached. As if it was a shame being russian, politics excluded. I’m deeply offended by this ignorance, vot.

megous7• 8 years ago

Why not use chemical weapons? Kim's brother was assassinated by VX for example. So it's not really out of character for autocrats.

Chemical weapons are easy to use in quantities that ensure limited effect.

AlexeyParamonov6• 8 years ago

Much easier and quiet way is to find a criminal guy who would kill Skripal for money and make it look like a robbery.

trhway2• 8 years ago

which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person

check that. Litvinenko. Basically minimal possible weapon of nuclear kind. Leaving no doubts who did it.

That is the point. An unmistakable publicly visible signature so nobody would have any doubts who did it, and all that without need to publicly take responsibility. Like with Nemtsov - killed right in the view from Putin's office. No need to claim responsibility while everybody clearly understands who did it.

There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

The "information war" goes non-stop in the world, and Russia is far from being the only target or participant. The only thing we hear from Russia is that non-stop whining.

Grue3• 8 years ago

desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more

Russia Today does that by itself just fine.

AlexeyParamonov6• 8 years ago

One may or may not like what another person is talking. If you don't like what others a speaking of that's not the reason to make them shut up. But RT is forced to close is UK and US. "Democracy" in action.

azangru10• 8 years ago

why did not we do that then?

I think this logic is backwards. The question of why the Russians did not kill Skripal back then has no place in establishing whether they attempted to kill him now. The question should not be why did they not kill him then, but rather why did they try to do it now (if indeed it was them who did it).

As for the information war (aka propaganda), I think that's pretty obvious (only Russia is not an innocent victim here, but also a warring party).

lucozade5• 8 years ago

why did not we do that then?

Because that would have been stupid. Why kill a spy when you can exchange him for your spies and then kill him. Which is what they (almost) did. Quite sensible really in a "fuck you world" kind of way.

AlexeyParamonov6• 8 years ago

Makes sense in some way. But why "Novichok" did not work then, if it is so scary super-duper chemical weapon? Both of the victims are cured.

Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok form the beginning, how did they came up to know that is is Novichok without having the formula? If anyone can have that formula to compare or to detect that poison, is there any evidence that it was originally produced by Russia?

golergka2• 8 years ago

From my first-hard experience of incompetence and incoordination of different Russian intelligence agencies and branches (mostly internal, though) - yes, "we" are that stupid. Aggressive, resourceful, but stupid indeed.

AlexeyParamonov6• 8 years ago

Calling some person a "spy" without any investigation is stupid as well. As we all know Skripal in not a spy for a long time (former - maybe), but he was called "Russian Spy" from the beginning of all this story. Bullshit all over the place.

megous7• 8 years ago

Quite believable. Russian gov. has a motive to interfere with OPCW investigations, and anything that can sow more doubt, fear, confusion or distraction is good as to their strategy post-Chemical attacks that gain publicity. The final report on Douma attack is yet to be released, so it would not be late to create needless problems for the investigation, and I trust OPCW to not make up stuff about hacking attempts certainly more than secret services or Kremlin. It's a fine international organization. If anything, Kremlin is probably more interested now that OPCW gained responsibility to point fingers at perpetrators a few months ago.

guilhas6• 8 years ago

Russians had to beg for the OPCW to go collect samples from Douma. While they were there, UK, FR, US were having fun bombing the area.

How can more Russian FUD be good for Russia? Because that is UK and US do everyday. They dont need Russia help.

Also OPCW does analysis in more than one lab.

Both Skripal and Syria chemical use theories are very weak.

megous7• 8 years ago

Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak.

FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition.

Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians delaying OPCW FFM on basis of security in the area, while at the same time parading around some journalists in the same area.

And last, the US and friends bombing were during the night and in a different place. Certainly nothing that would prevent OPCW FFM from operating in the area.

Wimpzilla• 8 years ago

All this stuff sums up to the already existing superciliousness nonsense a living form needs to goes through during life, as perpetual assault to any knowledgeable human being living on this planet! Human Being going down further and further without any brake!

Edit: Nice insta downvote!

Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

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