What happens when we work non-stop

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20180823-how-bad-for-you-is-working-non-stop

by vjsc • 8 years ago

173 44 8 years ago

sebazzz• 8 years ago

I see this happening with direct collegues of mine. Working in the weekend, working in the evening. Even parttimers running constant overtime, when it doesn't appear to be necessary. Having a few work-related phone calls even on holiday.

I believe this creates a constant "attachment" to work, and does not allow you to detach. Especially on holidays you should be able to detach and be able to forget work for a few weeks. (Besides: It also serves as a good practice to the workplace: What if this person is not here anymore due to illness/finding a different employer.

As for me, I always to keep work at work. I don't work weekends, and I never work on holiday. I am a software developer, and do keep on date on aspects regarding software development. But this is because I want to, and often involves subjects which are not relevant to my work (I developer ASP.NET web applications, but privately I like to do stuff with assembly and C++, or fiddle with an Arduino or Raspberry pi)

jadavies• 8 years ago

Agree 100% and that was my philosophy as well. They key phrase in your comment is "when it doesn't appear to be necessary" In my experience long hours are rarely necessary and certainly not on a continuous basis. Simply measuring hours worked just degenerates into a pissing contest which benefits nobody.

akullpp• 8 years ago

Oh boy, exactly the same happens at my company. Everyone is available and communicating even when on paternity/maternity leave or on vacation somewhere on an island.

Many people see their value directly tied to their career and one of the major ways to make you (feel) important is to be present. It also helps your career since many old companies value presence over other criteria.

I'm three weeks ill now and for the first time, I begin to understand that I've never been detached from work. In the first two weeks I actually became so depressed because I couldn't work. I need to do something, don't know what yet. This is bad for my relationships and for my mental health.

KozmoNau7• 8 years ago

I worked hard to break that habit in myself. My workplace (telco) gives all employees a phone and home internet, both with unlimited subscription, 100% free for private use as well, and a cable TV package if we want it. The purpose is that we can work from home as necessary, and obviously also act as brand ambassadors. Our phones are eligible for replacement every 3 years or so, for free.

For a lot of my colleagues, this is their only phone, because why wouldn't it be? Many of them habitually check their work email all the damn time, and I can see them online in Skype for Business, even when they're on vacation. I used to do that as well, compounded by a manager who expected to be able to reach us at any time.

So I bought a phone and personal subscription for myself, and most days I leave the laptop and work phone in my locker at work. Now when I'm off work, I'm off work, period.

A few trusted colleagues have my unlisted personal phone number, in case of serious emergencies only, but they haven't had to use it yet.

As for what to do with yourself, you need a hobby :-) Something completely unrelated to work, like bicycling or video games or woodworking. Something you do for yourself and/or your family.

k_wantified• 8 years ago

What about if your relationships and mental health are terrible, so you work to ease the pain of that?

crdoconnor2• 8 years ago

I've noticed it sometimes ramps up even when management isn't really encouraging it and nobody actually wants to do it.

It's the most straightforward means of signaling relative dedication to the company - Joe the most insecure programmer can attempt to compensate for his skill insecurity by showing more dedication by working longer hours.

That then means that Jane feels implicit, unspoken pressure to work longer because "Joe is doing it". Then this 'arms race' dynamic takes off and eventually it becomes expected and long hours become part of the culture.

It's at its absolute worst when management aren't technical and have to use various "rule of thumb" proxies to determine who is performing well and who isn't, because in the absence of deep technical knowledge guess how they measure you all?

maxxxxx• 8 years ago

I am in that situation right now. Management has decided that a product needs to be rolled out ASAP so some people are working late and weekends. I play an important part in the project but I usually get my stuff done during normal working hours. However, there is a lot of subtle pressure to stay around in case the people working need something. If you are a "team player" you stay.

I don't want to let down others (with whom I have a good relationship) but I also don't want to kill my personal life because management has set an artificial deadline so I have a made a conscious decision to limit overtime only to the times when I actually have something to do.

The overtime cult is an insidious force that's hard to resist. Once a few people start doing it there is a lot of peer pressure on others to do it too. I guess it's a dynamic management can exploit to get more work out of workers by playing them against each other.

balladeer• 8 years ago

On the other hand I have followed this way of work-life balance so earnestly that I don't do (almost) anything work related (or my profession) after work hours at all; except when I am looking for jobs and preparing for interviews (even then it's minimal).

I'd read (fiction), play sports, trek, travel, watch films, just saunter around, listen to music, or just have hours of sleep but I don't work after office hours (or even try to up-skill myself by coding in the field I work on, or some other interesting field). So far I have not really faced any problem because of this, but I am really concerned that it might start to show after I gain more years under my belt; or it might already be showing, it's just that it hasn't hit me yet.

Twirrim• 8 years ago

My team has got used to me politely grumbling at them if I catch them working out of hours or while on vacation. At the very least, if they do that I strongly encourage them not to submit code reviews or other more visible actions.

Managers in the chain start bugging people about taking time off as soon as extra hours are worked. Setting the culture for the team early on, _and_ enforcing it, is critical. Luckily I've been there since the team was formed, and have enough seniority that people listen.

That said, there are co-workers that just won't stop working all hours, but they've at least stopped pushing code reviews etc at all hours of the day.

lixtra2• 8 years ago

Working nonstop is a natural state. Think of parents.

Of course you cannot code for 14h every day. You have to vary your work. Personally I can concentrate for only 5h if I want to maintain that for several days in a row. I felt very burnt out after 8h of coding. It took me a while to understand that it’s okay to just concentrate for 5h and use the rest for communication and socializing.

I also do solve personal problems during work time that would otherwise block my mind from working correctly. Just like let work issues spill in my free time if they are serious.

froogie• 8 years ago

Although it is a natural state in some way (e.g. parenting, as you mentioned, but also day-to-day survival), the work many of us do today is very different from what we've biologically evolved to do.

Now lots of it is stationary thinking, whereas in the past practically all of it has been mobile gathering, hunting and building (if not just preparing for, and waging a war). Those who can't partake in those activities do other beneficial things. Refine resources, raise and teach children etc.

Is it not so that we humans can sustain better productivity over time in physical work than we can in mental work? It seems to be a fact, that physical activities stimulate mental ones. When you walk outdoors, your mind is more creative than when you sit still inside a building. Is it because of brain getting more oxygen? Is it because of psychological processes inside our brain react to different environments differently? Probably both, and then some.

I think there is more to things like ecopsychology[1] we tend to overlook. And understandably so -- from a profit-seeking perspective plants and animals are perhaps the last thing to seek help from to productivity problems within society, or a company.

It is all too easy to also dismiss it as mere idealistic hippery. I think if we were taught to explore this angle, some things we like to live in denial of would be laughably obvious to us.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecopsychology

atlantic• 8 years ago

I think that what you mean is that being active non-stop is a natural state. Perhaps even being usefully active. But latching on to a single activity to the detriment of all other aspects of your life, and then collapsing on the couch for the remainder of the time, is anything but.

bitxbit• 8 years ago

I am sorry but that gave me a chuckle. So you code for five hours and socialize for three?

badpun• 8 years ago

I think it's pretty standard in many corporate coding jobs, at least here in Europe. Often, if you include meetings in the "socialize" coulmn, the numbers are even switched.

lixtra2• 8 years ago

I wrote concentrate not code. Socializing was more a term for mails, calls and meetings plus the sometimes very productive coffee machine talk.

I can code without concentration but did you ever measure your productivity and and error rate over time? For me 5h is a sweet spot after that error rate goes up and productivity goes down. If the errors are significant they could cost much more time later on. If the job isn’t that sensitive of course you don’t have to concentrate.

zepto• 8 years ago

Working non-stop is not a natural state. Are parents ‘working’ or are they playing with their children? Perhaps you are so used to a world where parents have no time to play with their children because they need to get back to work.

Also it seems like you define socializing as ‘work’. If so, then why not define sleeping as work or even death as work, that way your statement that working non-stop makes sense.

cheschire• 8 years ago

How many software developers do you know who say they don't "work" outside of the office, but then write code at home for personal projects? What is the definition of "work" then? What would happen if you start to let go of the concept of "work" as the bad thing, and expand the argument?

I suggest we instead say using the same parts of your body and mind to the exclusion of the other parts is what is bad for you.

Knowledge workers probably shouldn't spend 6 hours a night learning or coding after an 8 to 10 hour day in the office. Trade job workers probably shouldn't go home and perform more tasks that are physically comparable to their day job without mixing it up.

A construction worker should probably attend night school or study or write code at night. A coder should probably go home and socialize, be active out in the world, or do home renovations etc. A manager probably needs to make time for meditation and non-social activities.

watwut• 8 years ago

There are many professional developers who don't have side projects they would attend to regularly. Majority dont and those who do don't work on them every day.

Those I have seen to work on side projects almost every day acted similarly to people who worked long hours - eithet got burned after a while or their hourly productivity at work went down (they chatted and socialized more at work, we're more talkative during meetings, procrastinated and wasted time with play tasks instead of doing real task).

wool_gather• 8 years ago

At least for me a large part of my choosing my career (software development) is because I love writing code. There's a huge mental difference for me between spending time writing code for myself, to learn or explore, and being at the keyboard for my employer. The complete self-direction in the project changes the character of the time. It really is a different headspace, and I don't think it's quite fair to say that it's still "working", in the sense of it being a job.

In my experience, the problem with overworking is not the activity itself. It's the mental state of doing a thing because of some sense of obligation, duty, or politicking/competition (or maybe threat, if you're doing it because you're anxious about job security).

Now that said, I totally agree that physically doing the same activity for endless hours every day is not going to be healthy -- including mental health. I think you're totally right to suggest balancing out job tasks with contrasted activities. It is good for your body, and keeps you from getting stuck in ruts mentally. As appealing as it sounds sometimes, I'm not just a brain in a jar. Using the muscles and talking to other humans is also important for being fully human.

wolco• 8 years ago

No one ever mentions how work is addicting in itself. The amped up feeling can be hard to turn off.

noir_lord• 8 years ago

I work a 40hr week and I have to be very disciplined because otherwise I go home and keep working because solving problems is fun.

I find a distraction works, for me that's chess.

ladybro• 8 years ago

Combine that with a partiality for stimulants and you've got yourself one exhausting lifestyle.

aestetix• 8 years ago

As put by a 2006 academic paper from Ian Towers, a researcher from SRH Hochschule in Berlin, mobile technology “increases expectations: managers and colleagues alike expect staff to be almost always available to do work”.

A little surprised to see this line. In Germany, there is a law (cannot recall the name), that effectively states that you cannot be fired if you don't reply to a work email or phone call between 6pm and 9am. If you want to, you can, but it cannot be held against you.

ezequiel-garzon• 8 years ago

Probably the employer won’t cite that as a reason...

reitanqild• 8 years ago

I don't know for sure but I guess standards for firing people are generally high in Germany.

vimy• 8 years ago

2006 is already 12 years ago and those kind of laws are very recent.

jdavis703• 8 years ago

I think "work" is a state of mind. If you love what you do, then working isn't really working, at least not in the classic "I hate the boss" sense. Now I realize that not everyone gets to work a job they love, but I'm quite frank with my coworkers and supervisors that if I encounter a prolonged period where work isn't enjoyable anymore, I will leave.

mancerayder2• 8 years ago

There are a number of factors such as psychological ones that play a role here, but one major one is distributed teams. I'll go into below what my solution is to the whole off-hours problem is.

As a DevOps guy, you have to bail people out of situations or assist with a scary release (because things are rarely sufficiently automated, it takes years to convince management and fix tech debt, especially in a startup). For that and other reasons, there's an expectation that 'it's just part of the job' to 'be available' in case someone in the globe needs you.

After suffering such things for well over a decade, I've chosen the stubborn consulting route. My health care sucks and it's hard to find roles, but once I do I get paid hourly and well, and let me tell you something about company behavior when you're on the clock: suddenly they volunteer OTHER people for off-hours work, suddenly they're reluctant to let you work more than 40 hours.

That realization should clue you workaholics (employee workaholics, not founder workaholics) in on what's really at stake here, and the real reason you're checking Slack nervously at 3 pm Saturday before your colleagues do: it's free overtime for your company.

And quite frankly I think many of you are doing your colleagues a disservice by setting availability standards too high. There's no reason to race to the bottom.

zasz4• 8 years ago

Yup, that's how I feel about ever being on-call again. I used to be part of a four-man rotation for a set of services that regularly went down 2-3x times during sleeping hours. This was really rough as a lifelong insomniac. I could never fall back asleep again after being woken up, and was basically a zombie. (And before anyone asks, I've done a sleep study, melatonin, seen a therapist, tried SSRIs, light therapy, intense exercise (biking across America did not help with my insomnia--yeah, biking 8 hours a day, I still couldn't manage to stay asleep longer than six hours any night, now if you don't believe me I'll fucking fight you), Ambien (it takes four Ambien to knock me out), Lunesta (worthless), Remeron (worthless), hot milk (worthless), lavender pillows (worthless).)

Never again.

xaranke• 8 years ago

Was there a way to fix the services so that you wouldn't get woken up in the middle of the night?

uxcolumbo2• 8 years ago

Have you tried CBD?

https://www.thesleepdoctor.com/2017/08/10/understanding-cbd/

mancerayder2• 8 years ago

That's funny that you mention sleep issues.

As a guy who was also on-call in rotations for many years (which is why I wrote the rant above), the biggest issue with on-call was waking up and not being able to sleep, even when the problem (eg., disk partition filling up) took 5 minutes to fix. The way I dealt with that was coming in late the next day. Like very late. Sometimes at 2pm, to leave at 6. Even if the problem took 5 minutes to fix, my insomnia cost me 4 hours of sleep, so now the company better pay up.

And I encourage everyone to behave this way.

mythrwy• 8 years ago

Sometimes the best way to hurry up is to take your time.

ja66awockeez• 8 years ago

never be good, if we are too extreme on one side. Balance is the key to a successful life.

speedplane• 8 years ago

It’s not just the hours you put in, it’s why you’re doing it. Working more is easier if you’re inspired and motivated. Building a castle sucks if you’re paid hourly, but is fun if you know you’re gonna live there.

What happens when we work non-stop

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