The Masculine Mystique of T

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/06/28/the-masculine-mystique-of-t/

by ehudla • 8 years ago

20 63 8 years ago

Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some reference to actual scientific research.

I have no clue whether anything in this article is true or false. Only that people might have used Testosterone to justify male dominance. Not saying it is false, but like what is the evidence? I just see vague anecdotes and personal opinions from people with no scientific training.

I admit, it did get me to think and I am very curious what the answer is.

ttctciyf2• 8 years ago

Whenever testosterone comes up, I always think of the study showing testosterone levels change in sports fans according to whether their preferred team wins or loses[1].

The interest for me is not so much in the question of testosterone and dominance, but more to do with how mere perception of events whose meaning is entirely culturally determined can mediate hormone levels in this way.

Winning at football is very different from winning at a fight, that is - you need to understand football's rules to understand who's won, whereas the winner of a fight is immediately clear.

Thinking about it, though, I guess ritualised proxies for fighting to establish dominance (like antler fights, etc.) might be thought to occupy an intermediate position.

1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9811365

solarkraft3• 8 years ago

Winning at football is exactly like winning a fight.

The member of the winning tribe will feel more confident that they will be able to win the next fight/feel more dominant, which correlates well with testosterone levels in my mind.

0xcde4c3db• 8 years ago

Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some reference to actual scientific research.

I don't think it's all that strange, given the situation. Testosterone appears to be a cultural and even economic phenomenon irrespective of its actual effects. There's a whole franchise chain of doctor's offices branded as "Low T Centers", which I don't think I've seen for any other biological compound. It's not a big stretch to say that people interested in that kind of thing are predominantly more interested in an experience than they are in a molecule. It's not entirely unlike "pot culture" or "drinking culture", etc..

balfirevic2• 8 years ago

My understanding was that they are mainly interested in body-building.

mdomans14• 8 years ago

That to some degree is driven by how taboo TRT (fuelled by steroid craze of the `80s) was. In effect there were seriously hundreds of men forced to live for example on Clomid because testosterone was a no-no (compared to TRT Clomid is like using propofol because you can't sleep)

toomchsauce• 8 years ago

Summary: Testosterone doesn’t have well-understood effects because they are complex and affect individuals differently. It’s more like a placebo and symbol of artificial expectations society has about what is “masculine”. The demand for T is a sign that society is sick.

lambdaphagy• 8 years ago

Testosterone levels in the West have declined by about a factor of two over the past few decades (https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434). Maybe society is indeed sick.

ecopoesis• 8 years ago

Or maybe it was always sick and is getting better? There’s no war in Europe. No war in the Western Hemisphere. Violent crime in the US is at a multi-decade low. There has been a human in space for the entirety of the 21st century. Most of the world carries a supercomputer with instant access to the sum total of human knowledge in their pocket.

We live in an age of marvels.

If society is indeed sick then the cure probably isn’t worth it.

asdffdsa321• 8 years ago

I mean, who probably has more testosterone: the guy sitting at a desk typing for 8 hours a day, or the guy who just impaled an enemy with a spear and savagely roars

mdomans14• 8 years ago

Something I think should pointed out in the article is that the author tries to understand testosterone (I don't know why, since it's effects through maturation are actually quite a bit studied, there are medical textbooks on it) through it's effects on trans people and/or people abusing it or using it for rejuventaion.

If so, the picture is far more complicated.

This actually makes about as much sense as trying to understand Fourier transform based on how stupid instagramming is.

iguy5• 8 years ago

What a strange meandering article. The author seems almost to be seeking confusion.

Since she quotes Cordelia Fine approvingly, here's an amusing review from a slightly different perspective:

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/old-t-rex/

samueldavid• 8 years ago

that was an interesting article

wycs5• 8 years ago

Cochran is a genius, but not for everyone. There are certain facts that are taboo to acknowledge, possibly for good reasons. Cochran does not abide taboos. If you keep reading his stuff, it is very likely to shock and offend you.

DmenshunlAnlsis2• 8 years ago

That’s a looooot or claims without anything like citations and support in that blog. It all sounds alright until you realize it’s a house of cards shown to you at a very particular angle under the best possible light. I was sort of curious if it was a one-off from someone who didn’t know how to source their claims, but reading some more on that site it seems to be more like very genteel propaganda. The theme seems to be a retread of old ideas on sex, race, and genetics arrived at by cherry picking results which agree with the premise. Well written prose, but devoid of intellectual rigour.

wycs5• 8 years ago

It’s a blog post. Basically everything there is not controversial in the relevant fields.

The difference in spatial rotation is extremely well replicated:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_...

The difference in grip strength:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/

It just is the case that professional women’s sports teams lose to male high school teams regularly:https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/blo...

I don’t think lack of citations is your true objection.

alexandercrohde• 8 years ago

I agree citations would be nice, but not having them doesn't make it false, just means you need to do the research yourself.

For example, a quick google corroborates the boys under 15 team beating the women pro soccer team [1]. Or men dying twice as much in car accidents[2].

1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3609949/Ma...

2. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalit...

solarkraft3• 8 years ago

Fun read. Just one point of disagreement:

Fine mention a kind of cichlid fish where dominance influences gonadal events – causation (in part) goes from behavior to hormones, instead of hormones to behavior. Interesting. But is there evidence of a similar pattern in humans? No.

Yes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17582237

iguy5• 8 years ago

I guess his point is that fish do things which are way-out crazy by ape standards... like Nemo's family group in which the biggest one literally becomes female: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiprioninae#Reproduction . Getting a bit horny after the footy isn't quite the same category.

1996• 8 years ago

strange article, not fully accurate either.

no one individual gets to choose precisely what changes it produces. As one friend who had started T said to me, “Let me know if you find a way to get the big muscles and keep the head hair!

Actually, we know. DHT causes the male pattern baldness. The conversion from T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase can be blocked by drugs.

We don't have good topicals or selective drugs yet, so people complain about the side effects of current drugs like finasteride. But it's not like we are talking of a huge scientific unknown, or if it is impossible to do that is described.

bluedevil2k2• 8 years ago

DHT plus the male pattern baldness genes. Not everyone who takes T would even be affected at all hair wise, propecia or not.

anonymoustuser• 8 years ago

As a man in my early twenties, I found myself with a sexual partner for the first time and was dismayed to find that I couldn't achieve orgasm through intercourse. I asked a doctor and he found my testosterone to be very low, well below the "normal range" cutoffs. I was prescribed testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), where I would inject myself every other week with testosterone, not unlike body builders though with the goal of obtaining normal levels not supraphysiological ones. According to bloodwork, that goal was met (which means if my T levels were now normal in the middle of the two weeks that they were certainly well above the normal range for the first day or two after an injection).

However, I felt no effects of the hormone. It did not solve the original problem - my libido was flat, my erections still adequate but no more energized than before, my intercourse still failing to stimulate me to orgasm. But I had also read the literature ahead of time and had come with expectations of many other side-effects that sounded great: the obvious muscle and strength effects, increased alertness or energy, decreased fat percentage. It seemed like everything that could be improved, was! (Except infertility and a chance to grow boobs in an ironic twist of stereotypes.) But I didn't see any of those effects - my numbers at the gym were still unremarkable, I still sometimes felt tired for no reason, my body looked the same. As far as I could tell, I was on placebo - except the bloodwork confirmed its effects. (I think I experienced more spontaneous nighttime erections, something that I only naturally got sporadically and considered more of a nuisance than a benefit.)

This was extremely disheartening. I stopped taking it after half a year when my relationship died in large part due to lack of good sex.

I say this mostly because all accounts of TRT seem to skew towards the miraculous. Like all things, its effects vary from person to person. Had I had tempered expectations, maybe I would not have been so discouraged. Maybe I would have tried alternative approaches to solving my problems. I don't know.

Some years later, I finally had satisfying sex. No medication involved, just a little persistence and finding the right person. I still struggle with not climaxing every time and sometimes am fantasizing that I could go back onto T and fix that. Maybe I'll try it again with expectations for a small, incremental improvement. Or maybe not.

So while this article is being met with a fairly negative reception in this comments, I actually found it a breath of fresh air. Had I read it ahead of time, I might have had more realistic expectations! I didn't really read it as giving a stamp of approval to attempts to over-state the sociological and gender studies points of view (it seems fairly critical of those, opting more to just say that it was too complex a hormone to sum up as a miraculously masculine molecule). Those using it to reshape society seem to be criticized by the article as possibly relying mostly on placebo effects, on society's expectations for what testosterone should do, ironically.

Also, the literature on TRT is surprisingly limited. I thought that young males with below normal levels, as one of the most approved recipients of TRT, would have been a large portion of the studies. Instead, I struggled to find ones that studied my cohort. Older men with dropping T levels (which is entirely normal) were often the subjects, presumably because that's where the money is these days. I worry also that the increasing use of it in young transgender people may be equally poorly studied.

bluedevil2k2• 8 years ago

The article hints that the effects of testosterone may be placebo, but at least physical muscle-wise, I’ve always found this study fascinating. Summary of the study - guys who took excessive amounts of testosterone who sat on the couch build 3x the muscle of men who worked out naturally with weights consistently.

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-natural/

mdomans14• 8 years ago

In regard to this study I'd like to point one thing. Therapeutic dose of testosterone enanthate (that can be prescribed legally) is nowhere near 600mg a week. Highest I heard of is 200mg. That will put average man above normal levels. 600mg is insanely high (3-4 times maximum test level) but the risk goes linear with the dose. At that level they have to be monitored pretty in-depth (BP, hematocrit, electrolytes, kidney function, lipid profile and probably psychiatric evaluation every 6-8 months. I know a lof of BB who ended up on SSRIs or in funny towns)

tranchms2• 8 years ago

Not to be critical, but I find this article to be uncompelling.

I began working out when I was 13. After college post 2010 I experimented with Testosterone, from 200mg a week to 600mg a week. It’s a whole underground culture.

My own experiences were exactly like the stereotype— increased libido, increased muscle mass, increase strength, increase mood swings. The sex drive is palpable. It’s ferocoiously potent, increasing sexual stamina, confidence, euphoric feelings of dominance.

I have coached many pupils in the realm of Testosterone injection. Every single one has experienced the same side effects.

I want to stress something. The endocrine system is vastly complex. Every hormone influences a cascade of other hormones. For this reason, maintaining health (strenuous exercise and a sound diet) is essential for ensuring those side effects are predictable.

For example, when testosterone levels are high, the body naturally wants to convert excess testosterone to other hormones— namely estrogen.

High estrogen can cause all sorts of side effects, including bloat, fat gain, mood swings, acne, and gynomastia. (Think what happens when a woman gets her monthly period... her body is flush with estrogen, and all the accompanying side effects).

To remedy this, you take estrogen blockers. Or AI’s (aromatase inhibitors, which is the enzyme catalyst responsible for converting T into E).

However, some estrogen is good. It is what causes a lot of that well-being and euphoria. Block all estrogen and energy levels plummet.

This is just one. There is DHT, or di-hydro-testosterone, which is 10x more androgenic than testosterone. There is cortisol. There is insulin. There are effects on HGH levels.

The list of cascading influences on the endocrine system is complex.

What else effects hormones? Exercise- circulation and digestion.

Diet. What food you consume effects your sugar levels, which effect your hormones. Your fat and cholesterol consumption affects your hormones. (Cholesterol is the base fat molecule that the body uses to manufacture all other fat based hormones. Without it, hormone levels are depressed, and the endocrine system functions sub optimally).

I say all this because it’s complex.

Human organisms are complex.

If you don’t understand or appreciate the complexity, you’ll ascribe cause where it’s undue.

There is no magic bullet.

We are a complex organism.

I will say, however, that testosterone is powerful.

I am no longer on it today, and I look back and think about how powerfully it affected me psychologically, physically, and emotionally. It definitely can change your life, and you can get addicted to that change. It’s empowering.

oceanghost6• 8 years ago

This. I have done many a cycle in my life, and of things far stronger than test.

I hate that I only feel like the person I want to be on cycle.

It speaks to the fragility and impermanence of the mind that a simple injection can make you a completely different person.

If you've never had your mind altered, you cannot understand how fragile your self-identity is.

tranchms2• 8 years ago

I’m with you.

It’s been a struggle to reconcile life on it and off it.

For six years I pinned. EW or EOD or ED. I got tired of it. It was consuming, and I felt like an addict.

Testosterone is a carnal experience.

I got tired of the mood swings. I felt amazing but, unstable. Certain things were not stable. My relationships specifically.

I’m off it now, and I have to say, life is not as colorful, not as intense, not as visceral, not as exciting.

My sex drive is average.

I retained a lot of muscle mass. I still look good, and healthy. But I am a larger human being. I don’t see that changing too much. I’m not as lean. My hair has receded faster than it otherwise would have if I never took it. I have more bodyhair, specifically the back and chest and stomach, which isn’t all that sexy. I used to shave it. But I don’t even care anymore. Take me as I am.

I miss the pump. The fullness. The excitement. The leanness. The vascularity. The ability to have sex 10 times in a row. The euphoric organisms that were like pure ecstasy. I loved sex.

The endless energy.

But I also felt like it was all artificial. That I was not really this person without it. And it was self obsessive. Mostly worried about what other people thought. It was so carnal, so... superficial. Physical.

That didn’t leave me feeling too great.

I think about getting back on. I’d look better. I’d feel better. It’s like the best antidepressant, if you can handle occasional mood swings and intense reactions.

But I’m happy. I’m calmer. My life is more consistent. The highs aren’t are high, but neither are the lows. The relationship with my girlfriend has gotten more stable. The fact that I’ve had a girlfriend more than a year is a testament to being off.

I’m focusing on my intellectual pursuits once again.

Maybe when I’m approaching 40 I’ll consider TRT again.

Until then, I’m okay with the way things are, and the way I am.

mdomans14• 8 years ago

This is pure honesty and wanting to help. People who feel better on cycle usually a) in fact do need TRT and b) should consider professional counsel in regard to their psychological help. Testosterone is very potent antidepressant - if you only feel good on T it means you only feel good on antidepressants. This information with the context you mentioned (trenbolone which has net negative effect on serotonin metabolism in the brain) suggests you should visit a doc and talk about SSRIs. Seriously.

The Masculine Mystique of T

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