What developers think when you say "Rock Star"

http://blog.hirelite.com/what-developers-think-when-you-say-rock-star

by nathanh • 16 years ago

181 85 16 years ago

blog.hirelite.com

thirdstation• 16 years ago

Why are software developers segmented between "rock stars" and "not rock stars"?

A salary estimate search on Simply Hired for "rockstar accountant" yielded no results :-)

heresy• 16 years ago

The rock star accountants are all in jail.

InclinedPlane• 16 years ago

One would suppose that the real rock star accountants are so good they are unknown by the public.

alphaoverlord• 16 years ago

The graphics in this article is very misleading. The first three salary values are average values from SimplyHired.com while the last value for rock stars is the "average salary for the top 10 best paid music stars". If you use the same criteria to search for the last category (rockstars), you simply find an average salary of $54,000, not $50,000,000.

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-(rockstar+OR+%2...

That's not to say the website's information is accurate or indicative of what people each of these categories actually make.

Salaries probably not a normal distribution, and the real high earners wouldn't be captured by guesses based on mean income. I would rather make the argument that the graphics displayed and information provided are really bad metrics. They are at best confusing, at worst misleading.

JoachimSchipper• 16 years ago

Not to mention the fact that the author confused 1622% and 1622x...

gaius2• 16 years ago

Rock stars not rock musicians in general.

Retric• 16 years ago

If you want to find the income from the top programmers you would need to include people like Bill Gates. While he spent most of his life as management most of his wealth from stock gained while he was a programmer.

Cushman• 16 years ago

I'm pretty sure some hedge fund managers earn more than every rock star put together.

thenduks4• 16 years ago

That's exactly the point, they aren't. It's just a buzzword to draw attention to a job posting just like "senior" or "experienced" were before it. No reason to start the hype machine up over this stuff, if you ask me.

gaius2• 16 years ago

It is the complete opposite of "senior" or "experienced". It's 22-years-old, thinks the web is all of the computing world, and thinks fleshing out a framework is all there is to programming.

kgo• 16 years ago

It's in the Mythical Man Month, not that Brooks uses the term 'rock star'

Good developers are 10x more productive than average developers.

There are no comparable studies for accountants.

steerpike• 16 years ago

Becuase its the software developers' turn.

Strangely enough, it happened in hospitality just before I left that industry, the term 'Rock star chef' was being used a lot to describe the new wave of chefs who were more interested in getting their profile up so they could get on television rather than actually try and cultivate a decent restaurant. The focus of the business drive shifted massively.

I have a vague theory that it just cycles through industry after industry and it's interesting to try and spot the wave before it occurs.

kemayo• 16 years ago

Was it being used as a negative term in the hospitality industry? If so, that's an interesting difference in apparent outlooks, since it's almost always meant as a compliment in programming.

jw84• 16 years ago

Cargo cult practice in effect.

tdfx• 16 years ago

This captured my feelings exactly about the ubiquity of this term in wanna-be-trendy job postings. I've seen quite a few companies use it, and without exception, it has meant that the company didn't know what you'd even be doing. It also means the person that's hiring you probably wants to "jump on a call" to discuss things, to see how you can "build out" their ill-defined, overly ambitious projects with whack-a-mole feature creep.

sabat• 16 years ago

"Rock star" is an overused term, sure. I don't know that its by hiring companies use makes developers think of abuse, though.

BrandonM• 16 years ago

The analogy breaks down when the author implies that rock star musicians (or really musicians of any kind) are paid a salary by the record companies. All the record companies pay are advances, and then the rest is just gouging the artist's creative output for every expense they can muster.

At first I thought that's what the article was going to get into: "We want you to produce amazingly high-quality output for an unfairly-low wage and relatively low performance bonuses." Instead it implied that rock star musicians get a significantly better deal than "rock star engineers," and that's pretty bogus. Just ask an aspiring rock star if they'd like to make ~$75K base salary with bonuses (i.e. equity) that reward the quality of their output.

philwelch• 16 years ago

For real rock stars, records are a loss leader for concert tickets and t-shirts.

Xurinos• 16 years ago

Whenever I hear the phrases "rock star developer" or "code ninja", I think, "Oh, they want some young fresh-out-of-college full-of-himself developer who thinks a language named after a rock is the wave of the future."

Jokes aside, those phrases raise red flags in my mind. I think maybe it is that from such an employer, I would expect to see the occasional presentation with swear words ("We're all adults, here" -- "Sure, but you act like you just left your parents' house, and with your first taste of freedom, you express your naughty self."). Ah, that is the word I am looking for: professionalism. I have a hard time taking them seriously.

mey• 16 years ago

To me, rock star/code ninja also conveys a bit of prima-dona attitude. I'd rather take someone humble over egotistical any day of the week.

michaelhalligan• 16 years ago

To me it means I'm going to have to keep a large supply of cocaine and cheap whisky around the office.

joe_the_user• 16 years ago

What I think of when I hear "Rock Star Programmers"?

I think how most musicians, signed to a major label, who perform as "rock stars" still get a net zero payoff after two years.

I think how if programming degenerated to the level of music or motion pictures, the average programmer would labor for nearly nothing in a start-up "hoping to be discovered" while handful got a fake buy-outs with no long term money and a much smaller handful became actual multi-millionaires.

alnayyir• 16 years ago

> if programming degenerated to the level of music or motion pictures, the average programmer would labor for nearly nothing in a start-up "hoping to be discovered"

Welcome to the source of my startup skepticism.

saturn• 16 years ago

apropos: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

JustinSeriously• 16 years ago

My experience is "Rails, small team, git or hg, won't mind you reading programming blogs during work hours, office environment will look fun, telecommuting unlikely."

nickdunkman• 16 years ago

It's just semantics. The term rock star was involved in the recruiting process of my current job, and those who used it included a great hands on CTO and a CEO with above average tech knowledge. I had no illusions as to some kind of huge salary or RIAA like treatment.

It's cliche, yea. But sooner or later you'll miss out on a great opportunity if you run away when you see "rock star".

iskander• 16 years ago

>It's just semantics.

It's probably all the time spent on LtU mucking with my brain, but I have to suppress a minor rage every time I see this idiom. Does this happen to any other programming languages people?

prodigal_erik• 16 years ago

Yeah. I don't know how "words mean things" came to be regarded as a counterargument to anything.

silentbicycle• 16 years ago

"In popular culture, people like to say 'It’s just semantics!', which is a kind of put-down: it implies that their correspondent is quibbling over minor details of meaning in a jesuitical way. But communication is all about meaning [...], therefore, we will wear the phrase 'It’s just semantics!' as a badge of honor, because semantics leads to discourse which (we hope) leads to civilization. Just semantics. That’s all there is." -Shriram Krishnamurthi, _Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation_ (http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/200...)

In other words: Absolutely. (Good, free book, btw.)

yummyfajitas• 16 years ago

I recently discovered this site. Seems relevant:

http://imarockstarninja.com/

kabdib• 16 years ago

Rock Star = I get to fix the problems, all the race conditions and exceptions and bugs that the RS developer didn't do a good job on.

Rock Star = He looked more productive than he actually was.

jobu• 16 years ago

Rock Star = someone who may code well, but they're a pain in the ass to deal with (we used to call them prima donnas)

wheaties• 16 years ago

Couldn't agree more with the first statement but add to that unmaintainable mess and spaghetti code

Rock Star = praised, promoted, highly visible, and in management's view infallible.

ursablanco• 16 years ago

Yup. Partially finished code - the main use cases covered, the fun and satisfaction drained out of the project. Now that I hire, I wouldn't ask for a rock star since it doesn't actually convey any of the qualities that we're looking for.

flannell2• 16 years ago

There's only one rock star, Ajay Bhatt. Proof below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqLPHrCQr2I

awa• 16 years ago

Well, They actually used an actor to portray him in the ad. Stunt double perhaps?

flannell2• 16 years ago

Hoff• 16 years ago

That isn't Ajay Bhatt. That's an actor.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/05/intel_a...

icefox• 16 years ago

:( So sad

catshirt2• 16 years ago

always seems strange to me when a company publishes such a subjective post.

lwhi2• 16 years ago

It's basically an advert - they're trying to appeal to developers.

EDIT: the article has a purpose .. it's content designed to complement the main purpose of the site - which is to get people to use their recruitment service. They are showing that they understand what developers think - and at the same time, they 'might' also be educating hirers.

A less cynical response for the downvoter - and yes I expect to be downvoted again ;)

Semiapies• 16 years ago

Well, yes. I'm boggled that anyone would downvote this point.

catshirt2• 16 years ago

moreso, it's the way they present it so matter of factly (when in fact, it's not):

When you write, "We're looking for a rock star developer." A developer sees, "We want to treat a developer like the RIAA treats rock stars."

smokey_the_bear2• 16 years ago

A Microsoft recruiter told me I was a rockstar after an internship interview in 2001. It felt awesome at the time. But now it sounds like a dated way to recruit 19 year olds.

easp• 16 years ago

In about the timeframe at MS, I remember stumbling upon a couple of living, breathing, but rarely bathing, young developer/gamer stereotypes being shown around one of the buildings in the Office division by two young, well, they looked like strippers dressed to appear in a porno as two hot "professional" women who let loose at the office.

Perhaps you were recruited by a related program?

smokey_the_bear2• 16 years ago

Well, I'm female, so I wasn't recruited by strippers. But I did get to go to their 'Diversity Weekend' before my interview. They invited out about 30 college kids - women, minorities, and some white males who happened to be in the society of black engineers. They took us to a couple of dinners, saw some sights around Seattle, and we had a full day of mock interviews with real engineers where we got immediate feedback. I had a great time and the interviews were helpful.

Perhaps the event you saw was the sister event for their not-diverse recruits.

zachwaugh• 16 years ago

If by rock star, you mean someone that parties all night, comes in late and hungover, has weird contractual demands, and trashes hotel rooms on business trips, then yes, I guess I'm a rock star. When do I start?

SpaceHobo• 16 years ago

I agree with you that to me "rock star" always connoted "bratty prima donna" to me.

I would point out that the weird contractual demands are often canaries meant to uncover a venue that has not read the contract closely enough to guarantee the safety of all performers and the audience. The famous example, of course, is Van Halen and the brown M&Ms:

http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp

sbov• 16 years ago

When a company asks for a rock star developer, I think pretty much this:

> "Rock star" signals that you haven't thought enough about the role this developer will fill, leaving developers with a feeling that they'll be receiving ill-defined requirements, not enough time, or not enough resources to do their job (in addition to being overworked and underpaid).

Or more specifically, they really need 5 people to do this work, but they only plan to get 1.

blantonl• 16 years ago

In all fairness, there are individuals of that calibre that can accomplish an enormous amount of progress - even on the 1/5 ratio that you reference.

But I would venture to say that you never find that kind of person from a job posting. A "5/1 ratio" person certainly only lands his next gig through word of mouth.

chime• 16 years ago

The company I used to work at, is in the process on hiring 2+ employees and an outside IT services company to replace me. It was an amicable, planned departure and I've helped them keep everything running till my replacements are found. Frankly, it hasn't been easy to find the people. The helpdesk person was fortunately easy to find but proficient programmers aren't easy to come by.

My experience from reviewing/interviewing people based on job postings is that almost all of the applicants are looking to be a part of an already established team - very few seem to have the initiative to work on their own or create new systems from scratch - both of which are something you'd look for in potential employees at a startup. Almost all of the applicants have worked well in teams but haven't done much on their own. I'd say they're good 1/1 candidates but not 5/1. The latter are indeed found through word of mouth.

ary• 16 years ago

Let's add that regardless of what anyone says about how "great" programmers are n times more productive than mediocre programmers that productivity is not the number one driving force behind these job descriptions. Business people want bang for their buck, and they seem more informed by (non-existent) wunderkind genius teenager and movie hacker stereotypes than any kind of reality based measure. Budgeting concerns are where it's at.

One has to wonder how much the ranks of computer science programs everywhere would swell if the other half of this supposed rock star equation were present. Orgies, copious narcotics, groupies, press coverage, and throngs of adoring fans? For an office job? Shit yeah, I'll learn everything von Neumann ever day-dreamed about. Worst case scenario I can take my girlfriend out to the beach and write her a little PHP script that outputs a screed indicating my level of interest (over HTTP), right?

lr• 16 years ago

I think we owe it to the community to email this link to the poster of a job position that mentions wanting a "rock star" programmer.

TamDenholm• 16 years ago

I've always felt like going to a "rock star" job interview with dyed blue hair in a mohawk, ripped jeans, chains, black string vest, black nail polish, black eye liner, leather jacket, walk in late and demand only blue M&M's.

timwiseman• 16 years ago

That would be amusing.

The M&M's thing served a purpose when it started though. It showed attention to detail when that could be important for a decent show or even safety: http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp

cullenking• 16 years ago

Upvote for sharing that tidbit on vanhalen. Cracked me up.

Paulomus• 16 years ago

You can read the actual contract rider for yourself at: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/van-halens-lege... In my opinion, the document is full of a whole lot of weird stuff and the safety excuse may just be a post-facto rationalization.

ANH• 16 years ago

Don't forget to bite the head off a bat and trash the place on your way out.

joelmichael• 16 years ago

I have never minded terms of endearment and respect like "rock star". Much better than being treated like a lowly cog, if you're the sort of developer that has some ambition and self-respect. I think the term comes from coders who are a bit hipper and more arrogant in their attitude than your typical computer nerd. I understand some might find that attitude grating, but I don't really care. Their attitudes are boring and docile.

cwp• 16 years ago

It's one thing if your boss calls you a rock star after the fact - ie, based on your performance. It's something else entirely if a company says they're looking for a rockstar in a job ad.

terra_t• 16 years ago

+10

I worked at one of these places, as a contractor. They never offer health insurance. They buy a lot of pizza and junk food, and give out lots of cheap praise, but will never send you to a conference or otherwise contribute to your well-being or professional development.

These guys offered me a permanent position, and I turned it down for a real job.

motters• 16 years ago

The whole notion of software engineers having much in common with rock stars seems rather misguided. Being a software engineer does not usually involve making loud noises, trashing hotel rooms, having a shallow superficial personality, attracting teenage groupies of the opposite sex, repeatedly firing your manager or buying football teams.

Vargas• 16 years ago

You mean you don't have groupies?

_b8r0• 16 years ago

When I hear Rock Star Developer, I expect them to work for Rockstar Games. Otherwise they are not a Rock Star Developer.

jonathanjaeger• 16 years ago

Finally someone put into words the cringeworthy feeling of seeing "rock star" all over the place. On the other hand, I think people use the term because it so commonplace nowadays, rather than it being due to some sort of pretentious attitude or outlook.

lwhi2• 16 years ago

Recruitment consultants and estate agents have a lot in common - both use limited vocabulary as props to fill adverts they don't spend nearly enough time thinking about.

A house with 'character' is in a bad state of repair.

A 'rockstar developer' is competent, but young enough to not know his or her worth.

newobj• 16 years ago

"Rock Star" is the 2000's version of the 1990's intra-office Nerf fight. Bait for idiots to apply at bad companies.

ja27• 16 years ago

I think "douchebag manager."

chipmunkninja• 16 years ago

This. I find it is frequently accompanied by a non-trivial degree of condescension and complete and utter lack of understanding about how what they're trying to build would actually work.

5teev• 16 years ago

Here it's just a lazy way for clueless HR people to say "highly/broadly skilled." It indicates as little thought as someone who says, "You rock!" when you performed some technical task they don't understand, whether it took ten hours or ten minutes.

Someday we may well ask, "What was it, once, to rock?"

jph982• 16 years ago

A rock star is somebody who plays in a rock band!

There is no such thing as a rock star developer. It's a stupid stupid term. You have no inherent connection with rock music, you are not famous and don't have thousands of adoring fans. I'm convinced that a number of balding, pony tailed idiot developers and snotty college grads think they do - but you don't - get over yourself.

Stop using the term, right, now, it's stupid, seriously.

I'm not going to get started on "code ninja". Jesus... WTF comes up with this rubbish.

thenduks4• 16 years ago

What's the big deal? It's just a bit of fun. If one doesn't like the attitude that a 'rock star' job posting conveys then one should simply not apply.

jph982• 16 years ago

No no, it's not the attitude it conveys, it's the attitude it encourages in the way developers act.

seltzered• 16 years ago

I see you posted a question about this six months ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1248389

mmt• 16 years ago

If you want extraordinary people, can you compensate them extraordinarily or provide an extraordinary environment?

Being able and being willing may take a while to converge, usually after interviewing a large number of the ordinary.

alexyim• 16 years ago

The difference between 50mil and 31k is 1622x, not 1622%.

fablednet• 16 years ago

A recruiter contacted me via email looking for a developer "at the Jedi level". Interestingly, though she said she'd read my resume, she was looking for a Java developer in Maryland (I am a Ruby developer in Chicago). I asked her to clarify what skills the Jedi level entailed (I couldn't help myself). She wrote back and said that it meant they wanted "a rock star"

Recursive Super-Hero Bingo for the win!

khafra• 16 years ago

Perhaps you should have alluded to an ability to produce code without physically interacting with a computer system, and to control the minds of the weak-willed--like department VPs. I'd be interested to see how far you could push it.

pvg• 16 years ago

It kind of reminds me of another fad where someone was equating hackers to painters. Oh wait.

grammaton• 16 years ago

Whenever someone is advertising for "Rock Stars," I immediately have two thoughts:

1) Will they be paying me Rock Star money?

2) Oh great, another bunch of douchebag middle managers trying to sound trendy....

There is no way that they really want a rock star, i.e. a fussy, unreliable prima donna who won't work unless they get things their way. What they really want is a genius who's inexplicably dumb enough to work for median salary.

What developers think when you say "Rock Star"

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