Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

http://www.tampabay.com/news/obituaries/hit-and-run-victim-was-quiet-and-dependable-co-workers-say/1124721

by gruseom • 16 years ago

271 111 16 years ago

brudgers• 16 years ago

The article illustrates how local editorial control and not-for-profit ownership can allow a newspaper to act as the conscience of a community.

Tampabay.com is the online portal for the The St. Petersburg Times. The Times is one of the few remaining independent newspapers left in the US, It is owned by the Poynter Institute. http://www.poynter.org/

SkyMarshal• 16 years ago

Also, hat tip to PolitiFact (http://politifact.com/), run by SPT, and one of the best political fact checking sites on the net.

TGJ• 16 years ago

How aggravating. "I'll go through 10 people before I find another like him" yet he will continue to pay the man 7.25 an hour. Everything you want out of an employee and nothing else and you can't pay the guy better than dirt cheap minimum wage and somehow lament at his death.

volski3• 16 years ago

Yea I'm sure the manager who probably makes 10 an hour can just start giving people raises at will. How aggravating indeed.

jbm2• 16 years ago

Out of curiosity, do you feel that 10 years of loyal service should not be rewarded with any kind of raise at all?

Even if he wasn't earning much more than 8 or 9 dollars an hour even then, but it probably would mean quite a bit for someone in that situation.

With inflation, he was actually being paid less 10 years later.

jimmyjim2• 16 years ago

That he complained that he "never even got a card" meant that he was not appreciated as a friend by his manager-- that's something completely beside the monetary wage. They should have been friends, after 10 years together.

And even if the manager was earning a low amount there's no reason that in just one year out of those 10 he could not have given him a Christmas bonus. Even a small amount, so that Mr. Smith would not have been able to say that he "never got a [...] Christmas bonus."

jbm2• 16 years ago

You said it.

Quote:

Dayhoff, his boss at Crab Shack, read the story on the Times website and found himself outraged by unsympathetic comments posted by some readers.

"I just can't get over some of those people reacting the way they did," he said. "This guy was a human being. He might not have meant something to somebody else, but he was like family to us. He meant something to us."

Meanwhile:

Jeff Lackey, who lives across the street from Mr. Smith's address at Hollywood Park, recalled one of the rare conversations Mr. Smith initiated.

"I was coming back from the Dumpster and he invited me over," said Lackey, 53. "He said, 'Jeff, I've worked at Crab Shack for 10 years. I never got a raise or a Christmas bonus. I never even got a card.' "

Yeah, I'm _sure_ he was appreciated in life. /s

TL/DR: Actions speak louder than words.

_delirium2• 16 years ago

Not really making a political statement either way, but I've been very surprised at how much small gestures can mean in some situations, and how relative status is.

About 5 years ago, some fellow grad students and I had a fairly recent Guatemalan immigrant serving as the janitor in our part of the building. It was basically awkward all around: the janitors normally came in late-ish to vacuum and empty trash cans and such, to avoid being there when most of the employees were, but grad students, especially in CS, work pretty random hours, so we were often there at 11pm or whatever. The guy spoke no English, and none of us spoke more than about 30 words of Spanish, but somehow given our life positions, none of us were comfortable totally ignoring another human who came into our area (I imagine some people are more used to doing so). So there was always this awkward attempt to say hello and make smalltalk, which mostly ended up in Spanish because the grad students knew a tiny bit more Spanish than the guy knew English.

He actually seemed pretty happy about that interaction happening at all. At some point, though, we ended up collecting like $200 and a card for Christmas (perhaps we felt a bit guilty that he came around emptying trash and vacuuming while we were doing a mixture of procrastinating on Bejeweled Blitz and maybe sometimes writing papers), which he found amazingly surprising. From our perspective it was quite strange that we were capable of making a gesture that made someone surprised/grateful, because I mean we were poor grad students, which in our context was a low-money/low-status occupation.

Tichy4• 16 years ago

Maybe by "another like him" he meant "another who is willing to work for minimum wage".

webwright• 16 years ago

A lot of people make this point. I'm not sure I'm ready to pass quick judgement that the restaurant owner should reward loyalty with money. Restaurant owners can be pretty poor and a 50 cent raise would result in the owner having ~$1300 less in his pocket every year. While he appreciates loyalty, he might rather suck up the extra effort of replacing dishwashers than rewarding loyal ones. He could be armpit deep in debt, have a child in college, or otherwise have reasons that money is tight. Or, yeah, he COULD just be a rich asshole (note: restaurants are not cash cows).

The first time I ran a small business, I was shocked at how my thinking turned here. Someone asks for a raise and the money goes straight out of my pocket if I say yes. Which isn't a simple decision if the business isn't a huge profit center.

gruseom3• 16 years ago

I think that's right. Plus it goes against the spirit of the article to rush to judge the owner. It's only because he cared enough about Neil Smith that the rest of us ever heard of him. And condemning him based only on his class position is pretty much what the original comments did to Neil.

vaksel• 16 years ago

personally I found the manager's comment very condescending.

10 is just such a small number.

it's like "yeah this guy is VERY important, I'd have to interview like 2 whole people to find someone as "good" as him"

jrockway5• 16 years ago

Police said that Mr. Smith was following bicycle safety recommendations such as wearing light-colored clothing, using reflectors and riding in the bicycle lane.

This is a common misconception. Reflectors are worthless. Riding in the bike lane exposes you to great danger -- car doors flying open to the right, aggressive motorists passing too closely on the left. If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and motorists have no choice but to slow down and pass you like they would pass any other vehicle on the road. You may feel like you are being an annoyance, but annoying people is what makes them pay attention and not kill you.

As for reflectors; they only work when there is a clear path from an illumination source to the reflector and back to your eye. Sometimes that happens, but more often than not, it doesn't. You don't need a $300 super-bright rechargeable light system -- get a $5 blinky and throw an extra AA battery in your seat bag. It may save your life.

Also, read Effective Cycling: http://www.amazon.com/Effective-Cycling-6th-John-Forester/dp...

Please don't get yourself killed because you don't want to inconvenience a motorist or buy an LED light. Oh, and get a helmet; the $30 ones are just as safe as the $200, if not as comfortable.

I hate to be preachy, but it makes me sad when people die because they are using a safe and efficient form of transportation. (And believe me, I am not blaming the cyclist for his own death here -- the motorist who murdered him is to blame, with a close second to poor city planning and the total lack of bicycle education in the US.)

ugh2• 16 years ago

I would be carful with the application of hyperbole. Reflectors don’t work under certain conditions but they do work very often. They are by no means worthless. I could imagine that especially reflectors in the spokes can help increase visibility.

… and the total lack of bicycle education in the US.

Is there really no road safety education in school? We have pretty extensive road safety education in Germany including a multiple choice and practical bike test [+]. It feels a lot like a dry run for the real driver’s license, at least for the impressionable mind of a fourth grader. I got a nice certificate when I made it.

It’s obviously seen as a first and important introduction to the traffic rules – what do the road signs mean, how does right of way work, and so on. You probably shouldn’t be confronted with all of that only when you are making your driver’s license. If only because you also have to know pretty much all those rules as a biker.

[+] At least in Bavaria. Education is the sole responsibility of the states. A quick search suggests that elementary schools in many if not all states in Germany have some form of road safety education including a bike test.

jackowayed• 16 years ago

Anyone can bike on the roads without any license or anything, and they teach you nothing in school about safe biking.

But I think what he meant is that drivers aren't aware of bike-related issues, aren't looking out for bikes, do stupid shit whenever they see bikes, etc. I love biking, and it's a great way to get around, but stupid drivers make it really dangerous.

jrockway5• 16 years ago

In the US, bikes are basically considered toys. If you're a kid, you ride one on your sidewalk to enjoy a sunny Saturday afternoon. If you're an adult, you buy one that costs $3000 to impress your friends. You put it on the back of your car, drive it to a fun location, and pedal around for a few hours once a month. It's way too dangerous to even consider thinking about maybe possibly riding it to work or something, because cars are out there with the intent to murder you as efficiently as possible.

Incidentally, I ignore all this and bike to work every day, bike to stores when I go shopping, do all my grocery shopping with my bike, and of course go on long rides for no reason other than that it's enjoyable. Yeah, there are people who will give you mean stares at traffic lights, or engage you in discussion about how dangerous it is and how annoying you are to them. They also seem to enjoy demonstrating the loudness of their horn... which do end up being quite loud.

But what's good about the Internet is that it's allowed me to grow a very thick skin. I can deal with the yelling. I can position myself in a lane position that keeps me safe but slows down one or two drivers. It's hard, but I can do it, and I enjoy cycling a lot (and don't think drivers are bad). But most people don't have the self-confidence that I do, get yelled at, and never ride their bike to work again. Cars aren't ruining the environment, drivers are.

Incidentally, my second-biggest complaint is that it's hard to buy bikes that are set up for what people need them for. I had to buy my own chainguard (from Germany), rack (from Germany), and dynamo hub (from Germany), just because nobody in the US sells any products that are any good. Heaven forbid someone buy a bicycle that could carry a load and wouldn't ruin their clothes.

I love working on my bike and tinkering with things... but most people don't. So they just buy a car, honk at the cyclists that are increasing their commute time by five seconds, and keep the cycle of fear, uncertainty, and doubt alive.

zephyrfalcon• 16 years ago

I moved from the Netherlands to the US nine years ago, and one of the big differences I noticed was the almost complete lack of bicycles on the roads. Not just that, but also the way bikes are used (or not used).

Where I'm from, there are many places with crowded traffic (not just in the bigger cities) and many, many bikes. It's common for kids to ride their bike to school, for example. There is such a thing as a "traffic test" for kids riding bikes, although I'm not sure if all schools do this. As for motorists, driving lessons are mandatory, and some of the things you learn are meant to protect cyclists: if your car has to take a right turn, you have to stop and look in your mirrors and over your right shoulder to check if there's no bikes coming (because they have the right of way!), and when you park you don't just slam open your car door, you look for bikes and other traffic first. (Failing to do so during the (non-trivial) drivers exam will likely earn you a failing grade.)

The Dutch have a lot of crazy traffic rules, but some of them actually make sense. :-) This why there are relatively few accidents with bikes, people accept them as part of the regular traffic, and cyclists don't need to wear helmets. (They do need reflectors so they can more easily be seen at night.)

So, coming from this, when you then move to the US, your first reaction might well be, "why don't people ride their bikes (to school, work, etc)?" One of the reasons is that it's just not a very common or safe way of transportation around here (at least in most areas -- I don't know about downtown SF or something).

Confusion2• 16 years ago

  As for reflectors; they only work when there is a clear
  path from an illumination source to the reflector and back
  to your eye. Sometimes that happens, but more often than
  not, it doesn't.

Firstly, reflectors are designed to deflect light into as many directions as possible. A small beam in becomes a wide beam out. And they succeed marvelously at that. Secondly, any reflector worn by any cyclist or pedestrian will reflect ample amounts of light from the enormous amount of light car lights send out. Thirdly, experience with plenty of reflector wearing cyclists and runners tells me that you see the reflectors bright and clear, long before you see the actual person. Especially cyclists without lights, of which there are many here, are saved by the reflectors in their pedals. I've yet to encounter the reflector wearing cyclist or runner that I didn't see until I passed him. People I overlook always scare the living shit out of me and it is quite comforting to experimentally verify that that only happens because these people don't take any precautions to protect themselves.

It sounds like you are repeating something you heard sometime just because it fits your argument, instead of actually having knowledge of the subject. Your assertions are completely untrue and on a bit of reflection (pun intended), you would see that, which means we are dealing with a lack of reflection on your part concerning this tidbit of 'knowledge'.

jrockway5• 16 years ago

I don't drive.

As a pedestrian, I've almost been hit by cyclists running red lights with reflectors. Since my eyes don't emit beams of light, I had no chance to see them until that last second. I assume any cars going through the intersection would have had the same problem, since the obstacle was to the side rather than directly in front of them.

Reflectors do help make the cyclist more visible to overtaking traffic, but they don't help with anything that does not emit light. The cyclist won't be able to see hazards in the road ahead or other cyclists with reflectors.

I do agree that reflectors are better than nothing in the limited case of overtaking or oncoming cars, but they're not as good as lights. And considering how cheap LEDs and AA batteries are compared with the cost of a bicycle, why are we even arguing about this?

stan_rogers• 16 years ago

Um, no. Reflectors are normally either cube corners (in molded plastic reflectors) or embedded spherical beads (vinyl ribbons and screen-printed fabrics), and both of those are designed to act as ideal retro-reflectors; slight imperfections allow for a small spread of the reflected light, but the spread is only a couple of degrees. Traffic signs and the paint used for lane markings and crosswalks work the same way. Any other arrangement is a diffuser, not a reflector.

hugh3• 16 years ago

Reflectors do something, but not much. Cycling at night is fricking dangerous at the best of times, and cycling at night without lights relying on your reflectors is damn near suicidal (and also illegal in Florida where this story takes place):

http://www.floridabicycle.org/rules/bikelaw.html

If this dude was really riding without lights in the middle of the night then his fate seems more Darwin Award-worthy than anything else.

rue• 16 years ago

Reflectors are better than nothing, just. An actual light source is so much better it is not funny.

LEDs are cheap, plentiful and actually safe.

Tichy4• 16 years ago

I wonder about the blinking things that seem to have become fashionable. I rarely drive cars, but when I did, I always found blinking lights extremely distracting. They make it hard for me to concentrate, to an extent where I wonder if it is still beneficial to the person wearing them. It's fine if a driver notices me, but I want them to still be able to concentrate.

People's perceptions may vary here, for example I also have my eyes when they put on the stroboscope in clubs.

chopsueyar2• 16 years ago

I also have my eyes when they put on the stroboscope in clubs.

Huh?

pbhjpbhj2• 16 years ago

>I always found blinking lights extremely distracting. They make it hard for me to concentrate

In the UK I don't think flashing lights are allowed on moving vehicles/cycles unless they're emergency vehicles or otherwise hazardous. Lots of cyclists still use them though.

100k2• 16 years ago

Blinking lights are used because they focus your attention on the changing light. So it is working as intended.

blasdel• 16 years ago

In Germany you must by law have front and rear lights with reflectors on your bike, and most are sold with generators to power them. Blinking lights of any kind aren't even legal for sale, much less use. Headlights with round beams are only legal for MTB use, all lights sold have shaped reflectors that place the beam entirely on the road with the brightest portion at the horizon, and a sharp cutoff above that.

None of these things are normally sold at all in the US. All red LED rear lights blink violently by default, and even fancy expensive headlights have idiotic round flashlight beams. One man has a US monopoly on importing the German products: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/lightingsystems.htm — but you can import for less than the wholesale price he gives to shops by buying direct from Germany: http://www.starbike.com/php/product_list.php?prodcatid=37...

I own both generations of battery-powerd IXON lights, and a generator-powered IQ Cyo senso plus without reflector. They are amazing — these (and the Schmidt Edelux) are the best lights available by orders of magnitude. Everything else is a piece of shit for road use, even at 5x the price and with brief runtimes on proprietary batteries.

They are the best consumer products I own, and I own some fancy fucking shit. I am dead serious. I've ridden 2500+ miles in pitch black darkness in the last year — and these lights have saved my life dozens of times where nothing else would have.

lemming2• 16 years ago

When I was with my ex-girlfriend her little sister was knocked off her bike, also by a totally reckless driver doing over 80km/h in a 50km/h zone. She suffered serious head trauma, they didn't actually think she'd make it through the night. She did survive but had pretty serious behavioural problems after that, and died a few years later of a cerebral tumour which was almost certainly related.

I'll never forget the surgeon when he first came out of the operating room. He said: "If she had been wearing a helmet, none of this would have been necessary and she'd be fine." You could see clearly in his face that he'd seen this way too many times.

Seriously, just buy the damn helmet and wear it. You might look like a dork but it keeps your brains on the inside where you want them.

arethuza2• 16 years ago

I'm pretty certain that I am only alive today because of a cycling helmet - I had an accident a few years back while mountain biking where I fell off and skidded along on my side (feet still in the SPD pedals) with my head hitting a gate post.

I woke up a while later with the helmet completely disintegrated - if I hadn't been wearing it I'm pretty sure it would have been my skull.

kgo2• 16 years ago

You know, I've heard that bike lanes are more dangerous for years, and many of the arguments are convincing. But the trouble is, 98% of drivers won't realize there's a method to your madness. Riding in the main lane when there's a perfectly good bike lane will just reinforce the preconceptions that bikers ride with lawless abandon, ignore common courtesy, etc...

If bike lanes really are that dangerous, we need to get rid of them.

[Of course I don't want to start a drivers vs. bikers thread. I'm sure the reality is that 95%+ of both drivers and bikers are just fine. It's just that other five percent that we actually remember.]

apathy• 16 years ago

> If bike lanes really are that dangerous, we need to get rid of them.

That's correct. This is precisely what Forrester has been saying for years. Bicycle lanes that co-exist with vehicular traffic are simply too dangerous. Separate lanes inevitably have to merge with traffic lanes in order for bicyclists to turn left. Therefore, bicycle lanes are simply not practical for most transportation. At best, they reinforce the notion of a bicycle as suited only for recreation. At worst, they lead to fatal accidents.

> bikers ride with lawless abandon, ignore common courtesy,

As opposed to the saints known as motorists?!?

I mostly obey the law, but you'll see me dismounting and walking my bicycle across a crosswalk on the same day that I see you doing this with your passenger car or motorcycle. If there's a conflict between the law and keeping myself (relatively) safe, the law loses every single time. Assuming that other vehicle operators are batshit insane is a very good idea (regardless of whether you are on a bicycle or not!), as is the assumption that the cops can't do much. At the end of the day, the reason SUVs were so popular is that you're pretty much on your own out there.

I much prefer downtown traffic to suburbs or country roads; rush hour is much more predictable and it's hard for drivers to quickly make bad decisions when they're gridlocked. On suburban streets you get to deal with distracted soccer moms in 5-ton SUVs trying to adjust the radio, smack the kids, and pass at the same time. Odds do not favor bicyclists.

jacquesm3• 16 years ago

> If you take the lane, you're out of the "door zone", and motorists have no choice but to slow down and pass you like they would pass any other vehicle on the road.

Yes, but all it takes is one that doesn't and you'll be in the same position as the guy in this article. (dead).

Not getting 'doored' is easy, spot which cars have occupants when passing on the left and simply assume that any of them can throw open their doors at any moment.

Driving in a car lane in the middle of the lane is going to get you murdered by the first person that doesn't expect you to be where you are. Being right doesn't matter much when you have a ton-and-a-half of Detroit (or Japanese or German) steel on top of you.

In some countries the laws are such that if you injure a bicyclist or a pedestrian you are automatically in the wrong, this sort of legislation actually helps a lot.

astrofinch3• 16 years ago

I like this site on safe cycling:

http://bicyclesafe.com/

seles• 16 years ago

That is good advice for bike safety, but it really has nothing to do with the point of the article, that people think being just a dish washer is pathetic, but if you look close enough a person is more than just a two word job description.

sliverstorm2• 16 years ago

The comment on the article reveals completely the lack of intelligence and elitism of the commenter.

It may be wonderful to think that the people who man lower-end jobs are somehow less deserving than you, and somehow should be executed. But without those people filling those low-end jobs, our world would fall apart. No matter what you think of them, you need them, whether you realize it or not.

And on the other hand, if the commenter was thinking "he will most certainly be happier dead than working at that job", that illustrates that he has never been in a position lower on the economic scale. While low-quality jobs are no walk in the park, it is possible to enjoy one's self and take pleasure in life without being at the top of the totem pole.

Either way, it is obvious the commenter is a fool.

points4• 16 years ago

I disagree. It shows a lack of taste and tact maybe, but I wouldn't read anything else into it. It's just some guy trying to be funny on the internet.

IMHO It's not clever or witty enough to be very funny, so it's more in the 'infantile humor' bucket.

BahUnfair• 16 years ago

As a student who worked in a fast food kitchen for 3 years, I can confirm that you can absolutely love a job that is bottom-of-the-pile.

mattm• 16 years ago

Reminds me of the scene from the movie "American Beauty". After he gets laid off from his soul-sucking office job, Kevin Spacey's character applies at a fast-food burger joint saying "I want a job with the least amount of responsibility."

yters3• 16 years ago

Sometimes the reason jobs pay more is because they are less enjoyable.

ovi256• 16 years ago

I think this reveals something about the commenter's mindset: he probably would never enjoy that job, and he deducts no one else could. Similar to the qualia debate in philosophy, he is generalizing way too much. He's not really guilty of that, it's the way he is. He is incredibly rude and callous though.

points4• 16 years ago

I think you're reading way more into this than you should. He just made a stupid obvious mildly funny crass joke.

viraptor• 16 years ago

Or the commenter was simply a troll. You get them on almost every news site now. Commenting on every article with something that will most likely cause others to argue / start a flamewar. I'm not sure if that needed a response at all. People not used to internet commenters sometimes give in too easily and start feeding the trolls... it only wastes your time and gives someone more chance to have "fun".

gruseom3• 16 years ago

You're right, but the article isn't really a response to that one comment, it's a response to all such comments.

metamemetics• 16 years ago

This is the most obvious answer. Taking it too seriously and upvoting articles like this will only ensure /b/tards find out about it and initiate an even bigger trolling.

jacquesm3• 16 years ago

Trolls and griefers are a real problem, there is not so much that you could construct that can not be destroyed by a small number of motivated people, online as well as in real life.

Creation takes time, energy, intellect and inspiration, destruction can be done instantly, requires much less energy, zero intellect and pigheadedness will do just fine.

whyme• 16 years ago

I often wish I could go back to my "low-end" job I worked at 15 years ago, and yet I still don't believe I'm unhappy. :)

natrius• 16 years ago

I don't like your first argument because it won't always be true. It seems more an more likely that most of those low-end jobs will be automated away at some point during this century. The argument for the worth of every human being needs to be based on something besides needing to have them around for your convenience. Fortunately, I think there are plenty of arguments that meet that requirement.

astrofinch3• 16 years ago

I actually worked a dead-end job a few years ago, and I didn't think it was so horrible. Even the people who are in our society's lower socioeconomic classes live like 15th-century kings.

steveitis• 16 years ago

The higher a monkey can climb, the more he shows his tail.

That said this article brought a tear to my eye.

points4• 16 years ago

Um Why is this hacker news?

Sandman2• 16 years ago

I agree with you. I guess you're being downvoted because, according to the guidelines, a proper thing to do when you feel that an article isn't HN material is flagging it, not commenting that it shouldn't be on HN.

points4• 16 years ago

I was wondering if I'd missed something in the article, but I guess not.

yters3• 16 years ago

One way to learn from the repeated "why is this HN?" is to explain, nothing helps us learn like teaching.

noahlt• 16 years ago

It's interesting to many of us here who are interested in building online communities. If a person happened to walk by this man's funeral, they probably wouldn't shout that he was "better off dead". But a person who happens to see this man's obituary online apparently has no qualms about the online equivalent.

As hackers, we build things that are used, ultimately, by fellow human beings. Those things we build can have unintended consequences. This story highlights that fact.

mixmax2• 16 years ago

Not trying to be snarky, but why is this upvoted?

It's an article about an unfortunate guy that got killed on his bike and died. How is this interesting? What am I missing? Since the article has 100+ points there's obviously something I've sompletely missed. What is it?

GiraffeNecktie2• 16 years ago

You clearly missed the point of the article which was specifically to respond to the insensitive anonymous online commenters who had dismissed the man as a worthless nobody. The reporter dug into his life to give us a rounded picture of who he was and why every life, no matter how modest, has meaning and value.

Sandman2• 16 years ago

I don't believe mixmax missed the point at all. I believe that he/she is genuinely interested in what exactly 'gratifies one's intellectual curiosity' in this article, to quote the guidelines. I'm sorry if I come of as rude here, I am appalled by the insensitivity of those anonymous comments just like the rest of you, but, like mixmax, I too don't quite get what is it in this article that 'hackers would find interesting'. There must be something, otherwise it wouldn't receive over 100 votes.

100k2• 16 years ago

As a cyclist I am familiar with the unbelievable outpouring of bile in newspaper commets whenever a cyclist is killed.

Thank you to the St. Petersburg Times for publishing this article.

danielnicollet• 16 years ago

Neil Alan Smith and all the other dependable and beneficial members of society who try do good without making waves or deriving fame, power, or wealth from it owe a great deal to that rare kind of journalism! I hope that my own contributions in life can be seen as such positive as Niel's were. It's not that simple to do good and be appreciated in life even for seemingly very minute jobs like that of a dishwasher. Reminds me of the ferryman in Herman Hesse's Siddhartha. Wise, humble, happy.

Shocked by online comments, reporter writes profile of hit-and-run victim

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