System76 and LVFS

http://blog.system76.com/post/173801677358/system76-and-lvfs-what-really-happened

by vec • 8 years ago

101 79 8 years ago

blog.system76.com

verbatim• 8 years ago

This article doesn't seem to explain why they have a hard dependency on a proprietary tool to flash the firmware.

There are no alternatives to AFUEFI?

emeraldd• 8 years ago

Based on there comments in the article, I'd say that was their conclusion:

    There is no other way to interpret this email other than LVFS won’t work well for us. UpdateCapsule is not supported by over a decade of machines in the field and could not be added without a firmware update.

majewsky• 8 years ago

Please don't use code blocks for quotes. This is truncated and unreadable on mobile. Just use a normal paragraph with a ">" prefix.

jackpot519• 8 years ago

I am the engineer at System76 that has been working on the low-level firmware update procedure.

The only alternative is to reverse engineer the SPI flashing method. We have switched to using FPT, the Intel Flash Programming tool, on new models. This means that we need to reverse engineer the SPI update method, which is something the flashrom project has had success in doing for older Intel chipsets.

patrickg_zill• 8 years ago

SPI is a standard, right? What is the problem in using SPI?

amluto3• 8 years ago

Can’t you add a bit of code to your firmware to accept a special EFI capsule that’s really just an EFI program (or a firmware volume containing an AFUEFI and the payload)? This wouldn’t work for UpdateCapsule, but it should work as a UEFI 2.4+ capsule-on-disk.

If fwupd won’t support a capsule-on-disk, I personally volunteer to nudge them. But I bet they already support it or would be very willing to add support.

amyjess• 8 years ago

The whole "Be wary" section is a really unprofessional swipe borne out of pure retaliation. It isn't germane to the discussion at all, and it's simply FUD spread by System76 in retaliation to Red Hat's security and legal teams balking at System76 wanting them "to ship a untrusted nonfree binary which would get run as root on RHEL on customer machines".

m-p-3• 8 years ago

To be fair, both sides are acting somewhat unprofessionally in this story.

ggm2• 8 years ago

To be fair, both sides are acting somewhat unprofessionally in this story.

This. I think the whole "longer lever to move the boulder is to do this in public" is a very very bad trend. Posting stuff like this is inflammatory, on both sides.

discussedbefore• 8 years ago

RE: Don’t buy System76 hardware and expect to get firmware updates from the LVFS

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845

dogma1138• 8 years ago

My guess would be because AMI or their OEM (Cleve) requires they use it for support.

kentt• 8 years ago

Just don't touch system76. They're just low quality rebranded Sager laptops with a crap version on Linux. You can just buy the same laptop and if you really like their horrible version of Linux, then put that on there.

craftyguy2• 8 years ago

Alternatively, there's Purism (https://puri.sm), who actually take security and build quality seriously.

Edit: looks like the system76 downvote brigade is hitting this discussion.

jimnotgym• 8 years ago

The cheapest Purism seems to be $300 more than the cheapest System76. Is the purpose of your comment to say that more expensive laptops are better?

driverdan• 8 years ago

Unfortunately they only offer lower res screens.

busterarm4• 8 years ago

looks like the system76 downvote brigade is hitting this discussion.

Tbh, I'm fairly convinced and have been for some time now that someone involved with that group is part of a voting ring on HN.

sbov• 8 years ago

I considered purism in my most recent laptop hunt, but with 4 core laptops going mainstream in Intel's latest update I couldn't justify it.

AdmiralAsshat2• 8 years ago

In theory, if both Purism and System76 upstream their work towards open hardware and in neutralizing the IntelME, the work should benefit everyone.

slededit4• 8 years ago

The Linux community really does eat its own. For a long time the question was - when will there be a Linux supporting laptop. Now a company comes and does it and the complaint is they aren't bespoke enough.

twblalock• 8 years ago

This particular complaint is that they are just rebranding OEM hardware, so you might as well just buy the OEM hardware.

smacktoward2• 8 years ago

As someone who uses Linux on a laptop (ThinkPad) and would love to support a Linux-first laptop vendor, the question I've always had about System76 specifically is: what value exactly do they add?

System76's pitch is that they add value by ironing out all the compatibility issues Linux can have on laptops, so they "just work" the way macOS does on MacBooks and Windows does on ThinkPads and Dell XPSes. But they're maddeningly vague about precisely what compatibility issues they're ironing out, at least in their public-facing marketing materials.

Those make their pitch instead on the quality of their hardware -- a front where they are inevitably doomed to lose to deeper-pocketed OEMs like the ones mentioned above -- and on their coming with a custom flavor of Linux called "Pop!_OS", which as far as I'm concerned is an anti-feature. I don't want to be locked into some hardware vendor's custom Linux ghetto just to get hardware compatibility; I want to run mainstream distros like Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian. You can get a System76 machine with Ubuntu, but if the hardware "just works" with Ubuntu, why muddle the message by trying to get me to convert to a whole new distro? And if it doesn't "just work" with Ubuntu, why offer that option in the first place?

It's all very confusing, and leaves me with the vague feeling that they're talking about just about anything they can talk about other than what specifically they're doing to improve Linux's compatibility with laptop hardware. And that makes me worry that they're just taking generic hardware from some Chinese factory and installing Linux on it.

If that's what I wanted, I could do it myself, you know?

Note that I'm not saying here that they aren't doing important work improving compatibility. What I'm saying is that, if they're doing that work, they're doing a really good job of hiding it from potential customers. Which is mystifying, since that is the one thing their potential customers would actually care about.

rossdavidh• 8 years ago

My main laptop is a System76 "Lemur" (economy model) that I've had for a couple years now, and it's served me well, for programming or otherwise.

acomjean2• 8 years ago

This is the whole open source community destroying (edit: maybe better term would be "damaging") itself.

Basically it starts civilly about finding the one best way to do something. They agree to disagree.

Then there 2 standards...Then 4, then 8 all not having the effort exerted to make each solution great.

Then one party writes something like "don't buy this it not free/ doesn't do this".

And in the end 99+% of people can't be bothered with the arguments and end up running Mac/Windows laptops, harming the open source adoption goals of everyone who was arguing before.

I still own redhat stock. Corporations love having a point of contact when things go wrong and will pay for that.

iel992• 8 years ago

Hyperbole

Dozens of projects have gone this way and the open source community still exists

It’s almost as if the notion of one size fits all is a utilitarian idea to simplify production of physical goods

We need to maybe look at why we keep trynna force that on more ephemeral ideas

I’m not obliged to speak English any one why. Why bother with making sure everyone runs the same code or manages only one or two key projects collectively?

Cause Big Corp? Meh.

iodiniemetra• 8 years ago

Not hyperbole, a real problem that leads to interop issues. For example, the hellish filesystem wars of the mid 2000s.

Most distros STILL ship ext4 despite there being better options.

acomjean2• 8 years ago

Linux is great. But even with a strong personality leading there are just too many options for the average consumer.

Software and operating systems are a feedback loop. The more software for a OS the more people use that OS which drives more and better software. As a Mac user in the 90s we suffered from a lack quality software and almost the demise of that platform.

It’s always the year of the Linux desktop, but it can’t seem to displace windows despite being cheaper.. I want great options for computers with Linux pre installed.

But it’s hard sell. Which disto?

Which desktop to use? Gnome, kde.... filesystem? Want to install something non standard? Better hope that they build the software with the same libraries and the same distribution.

Choice is great, but after reading about the linux desktop in another post, people have their favorites, but it seems like there is a lot of work to be done polishing them. With limited developers volunteering we end up with 10ish ok options instead of 2 or 3 great ones.

You want as many people using your platform to keep it healthy and strong.

chewbacha• 8 years ago

Reminds me of: https://xkcd.com/927/

nvr2192• 8 years ago

good to see the auto-downvote-xkcd-links bots are still operational

confiq2• 8 years ago

I still think that Richard is kinda irritating in this case.

JepZ• 8 years ago

Btw. regarding the Dell XPS advice found in the original post:

Three years ago I bought an Dell XPS 15. After a few month the touchscreen was broken (did not respond to any input). As I didn't really need it, it took me a few weeks before I contacted Dell. Their support tried to fix the devices remotely for nearly an hour (flashing firmware updates), the touchscreen was still broken. So they send a technician who tried to repair the device in my kitchen. Sadly he didn't have a replacement screen with him, so a few days later another technician came and replaced the screen.

Afterwards the touchscreen worked again. But a few weeks later the Screen started to flicker occasionally. At first I wasn't sure if it was related to the battery level or some software error, as it just happen from time to time and I wasn't using the device that often anyway. But after searching online for the issue and having used the laptop with Windows and Linux for months I am confident that it is another hardware malfunction. Sadly the warranty is long time over.

I liked the effort the support put into fixing the device, but I am a little disappointed to have had so many hardware issues for a device with such a high price. And while I had very few driver issues, the overall quality of the product didn't convince me to recommend it :-/

djsumdog• 8 years ago

I had similar issues with an XPS 15. The battery started swelling and popped up the touchpad (I think that's covered under warrant with a recall; just need to take it in). The speakers have no over current protection and blew out (to be fair HPs don't have hardware protection either and can do the same thing).

I've also had a lot of cooling and throttling issues. I use to really like Dells and have had other really good Dell laptops. Maybe I just got a bad release and I probably shouldn't swear them off, but I'm probably going to avoid them for a while.

nvr2192• 8 years ago

I've been using xps15 for about 6 months and by far the biggest complaint I have is the webcam placement. Hopefully I won't have these other battery swelling/screen issues.

BadassFractal3• 8 years ago

I personally dislike their hardware (I've owned Clevo / Sager for close to 15 years now, they've always felt cheap and plasticky), but I think their PPA and support are great.

The problem is that it's not clear what exactly is better out there for Linux enthusiasts who want a MacBook Pro-like experience out of the box. They're the least worst solution on the market as far as I can tell.

ams6110• 8 years ago

Linux enthusiasts who want a MacBook Pro-like experience out of the box.

How big a group is this? Most enthusiasts like the ceremony of installing and configuring their favorite distros to their likings.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "enthusiast?"

robotbikes• 8 years ago

Well considering before I switched to my System76 laptop I had to deal with trying to get a proprietary video chipset working that also controlled my CPU fan. It was not any fun and the result was a machine that would just plain overheat when I ran Linux (also did it on Windows). On the other hand when I had issues with my System76 machine I bought second-hand I was able to get excellent support and the drivers all worked out of the box. So yeah I'd rather buy a machine that has working drivers out of the box than waste more hours of my life trying to troubleshoot getting some kind of proprietary chips working.

BadassFractal3• 8 years ago

That's fair, I should have said "professional" more than "enthusiast".

I'm in the category where I use Linux for a living, but I also don't want to spend a week debugging why WiFi keeps dropping at random intervals instead of actually getting my job done.

confiq2• 8 years ago

probably big. Sometimes I just want to code and not to mess with OS all the time...

Iolaum• 8 years ago

Since we are giving feedback to system76 I was shopping for a laptop 1+ year ago and was considering system76. When I inquired about buying an Oryx Pro they said that they would disable the onboard gpu and I could not use it. I ended up buying a laptop elsewhere. It took me ~ 6 months to find out how to properly use/switch_to the iGPU (spoiler: acpi_osi kernel parameter in grub) but now I do and can properly chose between battery endurance and performance. Ideally a linux vendor would fix these problems instead of limiting what one can do with the hardware. On the other hand requiring a user to change grub kernel loading parameters isn't a level of customer support that would get positive reviews. However a sizable number of linux users are "enthusiasts" (as people who don't use linux like to call us) and, personally, if I am to pay more for a linux laptop, I expect the manufacturer to facilitate tinkering to get the most out of it (ie allowing me to switch gpus or run any distro I want) instead of hindering that option.

0x03• 8 years ago

When a vendor talks about adding a "unique blockchain security infrastructure" for firmware updates... I don't even

jackpot519• 8 years ago

Blockchain, however muddied it is today, does have legitimate uses. In this case, we use it to enforce a valid timeline of builds with cryptography.

0x03• 8 years ago

I don't get it, do you allow adversary participants in on the network to vote on firmware consensus? What's wrong with regular vendor digital signatures, like everyone else does? :)

dman• 8 years ago

The parts casting doubt about lvfs felt out of place to me.

System76 and LVFS

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