I'm an introverted hacker. I want to join a frat.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1685471

by Introverty • 16 years ago

39 88 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

[niceFirstPost]

Let's start here: I'm a college freshman, and introverted and sheltered as hell. I've always been a shy, timid, geeky hacker.

Introversion-wise, I can't handle extended amounts of time with people, or large crowds. Both drain me like no other. I've always been shy and mellow. Sheltered-wise, I never party or get drunk or any of that.

But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on.

[b]So I rushed a frat.[/b] And I got a bid. (Probably cause I look good more than anything else.) And tonight I went to the first meeting.

And here's the problem. Getting in was easy because it was just an alumni panel and an interview. [b] But I'm not sure how - or if - I can get through the pledge process.[/b] I'm just so far behind everyone else: I'm not good in crowds; don't know how to act at parties; don't know how to drink and drinking games; don't know how to dance; don't know.

[b] Here's my first question: [/b] Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process? (It's not a hardcore frat, so there's no hazing and such.) Or should I work on my social skills for a semester and pledge again?

[b] Next question: [/b] If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how? (Talking? Being in groups? Drinking/Games? Partying?)

Thanky.

[/niceFirstPost\

lzw• 16 years ago

It really depends on the frat. If it is a frat that is oriented around academic excellence (are there any of those?) then don't worry... just being in the frat will help you in this regard.

I think the secret for this whole process is this: Learn to not care about being humiliated. Humiliate yourself, in fact. IF they give you a chance to tell your most embarassing story, do it. And try to do it well. By doing so they will know that the story can't really be used against you, and that you have the guts to tell it.

The trick is, people are naturally shy and insecure. Frats and "hazing" are all about getting over that, in a typically hamfisted male-bonding sort of way.

If your conscious mind can take control, and if you can be super rational, you can excel socially. Most people your age do not know this, and are afraid. But if you have nothing to fear because you realize that what you're afraid of is really inconsequential, then this gives you immense power.

You can actually hack the frat knowing this.

The bully whose always picking on you? Well, he's doing so because he's insecure. In fact, he'll telegraph to you what he's insecure about in the nature of his picking on you.

Same thing with arrogance.

Shy guys? They'll be your best friends if you are nice to them.... you can buy a lot of loyalty with a little bit of niceness. (And loyalty is a valuable currency.)

for dealing with crowds, just pick one or two people to focus on-- initially anyone you've had any previous contact with. Don't be clingy, or follow them around, but don't try to relate to everyone.

If you walk into a room and know nobody, just walk up to the cutest girl and ask her name. That's it. If she doesn't start talkign to you, or looks nervous or makes an excuse then wait and see if anyone approaches you after a few minutes and if not, just find someone else and introduce yourself.

drivebyacct22• 16 years ago

The sad thing about this post is why the idea of most fraternities is a complete turn off.

It's all about tricks and gaming people by being fake. I know they aren't all this way, I know they have benefits. I still see the same behaviors, too often.

philk• 16 years ago

Acting in a way that's unfamiliar and uncomfortable will always feel fake initially. If the OP wants to get out of his shell he'll have to be awkward and fake for a while.

Happily this will fade with time as he becomes more accustomed to acting that way.

troymc• 16 years ago

Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson from doing great things.

Forget about the frat. Go hack on a project that interests you. Both you and the world will be better off for it.

inboulder• 16 years ago

"Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson" funny you should have mentioned both of these folks, they both died virgins. The world might have been better, but they never got to experience an important part of being human.

sigstoat• 16 years ago

if accomplishment and getting laid were mutually exclusive, i'd say things worked out just fine for newton.

since they're not, i feel a little sorry for the fellow, and it isn't obvious what you're trying to say, unless it is "you can't get laid except by joining a frat'

jonursenbach• 16 years ago

I wouldn't classify all introverts as being virgins.

heed2• 16 years ago

Are you just making an observation or is there some significance to your comment?

Jach• 16 years ago

Be careful with that line of reasoning, especially when not everyone may have the same ideas of what is "an important part of being human". Using your brain to do physics/math/writing/programming seems more important an experience than having sex.

jodrellblank• 16 years ago

Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson from doing great things.

Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cavendish

"""Cavendish was silent and solitary, and was viewed as somewhat eccentric by many. He only spoke to his female servants by notes and formed no close personal relationships outside his family. By one account, Cavendish had a back staircase added to his house in order to avoid encountering his housekeeper because he was especially shy of women. His only social outlet was the Royal Society Club, whose members dined together before weekly meetings. Cavendish seldom missed these meetings, and was profoundly respected by his contemporaries. However his shyness made those who "sought his views... speak as if into vacancy. If their remarks were...worthy, they might receive a mumbled reply."

Because of his asocial and secretive behaviour, Cavendish often avoided publishing his work, and much of his findings were not even told to his fellow scientists. In the late nineteenth century, long after his death, James Clerk Maxwell looked through Cavendish's papers and found things for which others had been given credit. Examples of what was included in Cavendish's discoveries or anticipations were Richter's Law of Reciprocal Proportions, Ohm's Law, Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures, principles of electrical conductivity (including Coulomb's Law), and Charles's Law of Gases."""

frederickcook• 16 years ago

I joined a fraternity because I was an introverted engineering major, and wanted to get some social skills.

It worked. In addition to social skills, I took leadership positions, managed teams of people, managed a budget, learned invaluable presentation skills, and probably most importantly, gained a great deal of self-confidence.

I wouldn't be a startup founder without all those skills, nor would I be a startup founder without my hacker skills.

That said, the fraternity I joined annually won awards as a top fraternity at it's campus and nationally. I know many others who joined fraternities and had very different experiences.

Loy• 16 years ago

I have one warning for the author tho. Frats are societies and as such they are regulated by a hierarchy. Don't ever forget it. You don't need to be a leader right away, but you certainly want to avoid the bottom of the ladder. There is - always - at least one goofy in every group.

I want to be social and party and so on.

You probably just want a shortcut to girls. I'd say go for it, experience things by yourself. But remember that your adhesion to a frat (or anything else for that matter) won't do everything for you. Status is determined by the way other members treat you.

By the way, "being good with crowds", "dancing", etc: it's a smoke screen. Don't focus on that. All you need is to be liked by the leaders (aspire to become one).

The first mistake you can make is trying to please them by doing everything they ask. You'll see the majority of people will try to please them this way. Avoid this trap.

Use your smartness and some boldness. Be active, make it your own experience, don't be passive and wait to be fed. If you are active and bring something with your personnality and energy, it'll be hard not to like you. Be around the right guys. A couple of social psychology books might be useful as well. It's a good challenge.

Zev2• 16 years ago

My advice is to go for it. At worst, you'll have a story to tell a few years later. Or you can make a few friends. Either way, it'll likely have some sort of positive outcome.

Personally, I didn't join a frat. Not for me. But, I know a few people who did -- and they've had good things to say. Maybe not about the rush, but about everything else afterwards.

gte910h5• 16 years ago

Rush is one of the most clearly valuable exercises in sales and getting people to like you that you will ever do. If you join a fraternity, you end up being on the other side of it 3-12 other times (depends on how often your school rushes).

I'll tell you this, smalltalk with strangers while trying to sell something is so easy after the approximately 50 nights of rush I did during college, trying to sell people on an organization while chatting for hours.

gphil• 16 years ago

I was in a fraternity in college and definitely one of the geekier members. I felt it really helped my interpersonal skills a lot, and I made a lot of really great friends in the process. The best advice I can give is not to worry about catching up socially or feeling comfortable with large groups right off the bat--these things won't necessarily come quickly or naturally. I would suggest figuring out who in the fraternity you get along with and work on forming friendships with those individuals. Just try to make friends with the people you like and the rest should follow naturally. That said, if there is no one in the fraternity you would like to be friends with, then you probably should consider other social options.

mx12• 16 years ago

A) From what most of what my friends have said, pledging isn't that bad, but it depends on the frat

B) Attend something outside of your normal circle of friends. Join a student organization or club sports team if you like sports. I graduated with a EE degree and I did cheerleading (At a big ten university :) my sophomore and junior year of college. It was a great experience to meet people outside of other engineers.

As a side not, when I was a freshman I thought about joining a frat, but the reason why I didn't join was because people tend to label you based on what frat you belong to. This is especially true if you meet a sorority girl, they will instantly know the reputation of your frat. So just know the reputation of the frat you want to join first before joining.

arthurdent• 16 years ago

Drinking and partying and dancing a lot will make you get better at drinking and partying and dancing.

People worry a lot about [achieve task X] optimally, when really its probably fine to just [achieve task X] somehow/eventually.

For example, people read mountains of research to fine tune their workouts. Guys who work on farms do fine without. "Lift heavy things. Repeat." will make you strong enough that you shouldn't have to overthink the method you choose. Don't overthink the social skills thing either. Have fun. Repeat. Drink and party and dance and you'll get better at it.

mburney• 16 years ago

I would say go for it. To catch up socially, just go to a lot of parties and talk to people, but don't try too hard, its OK to be less talkative in your first few parties, but don't avoid interaction either.

In a frat some guys will like to bust your balls and you will have to come up with quick responses. Don't worry about responding eloquently, you will get better over time. But make sure you don't laugh it off, agree, or self-deprecate...bust their balls back. It is all in good fun. This is how your social skills will improve.

eru3• 16 years ago

Busting balls is a social skill?

DuncanIdaho3• 16 years ago

You are a lady I presume?

Actually I find ball busting a form of art. I know a couple of people that are so good at it that they actually sense your comfort level - and maneuver right below the treshold.

This is the kind of people you call when your bored - take them out and beg them to mock you!

Actually I find ball busting a human form of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNvQ2AC23cg . It's what young males do to learn about social cause/effect. I find it less damaging to one's personality to what young girls do to each other.

gte910h5• 16 years ago

In american culture being able to accept gentle and no so gentle teasing, as well as being able to dish it out is a skill required in typical "masculine" professions and endeavors.

It is very useful dealing with people who expect you to take friendly teasing, and it's even more useful to be able to turn it around and tease back (and is a sign of high status individuals in some of those).

derwiki• 16 years ago

It sounds like you know it already, but absolutely quit if you think anything turns into hazing -- it's a cheap way to build friendships and good fraternities don't need that. Past that, don't go overboard on drinking at first either. That's really not a good reason to be joining a fraternity anyway, you can drink with anyone.

Use your nerdier qualities to help the fraternity. We built an interactive carnival booth for a campus event that used a program I wrote to play different songs when an external switch was toggled. Don't let the fraternity change you -- use it as a way to be comfortable with your nerdiness. Friendships and social interaction will start becoming natural after that.

To echo what frederickcook said, there are -great- fraternities out there that will give you an opportunity to become a leader (and they are often the chapters that are winning national awards). Taking advantage of these opportunities is something I regularly cite as one of the best moves I made in undergrad. Try picking a less involved position in the house as soon as you can -- there are usually a few suited toward freshmen.

kloncks• 16 years ago

I'm an Engineer (though I count myself as extroverted) and joined a fraternity in college. It's my junior year now. I also know a few Comp Sci kids in other fraternities.

The answer is: it depends on which fraternity you're looking at and what their values/priorities are.

The stereotypical fraternity guy that gets portrayed in tv shows does exist...but only in specific fraternities. I would shy away from that.

A fraternity can be a great experience and one you couldn't really trade for anything else. Not everyone starts college extroverted and outgoing.

My advice? Find a fraternity that will embrace you and extend your character NOT change who you are inside or alter your values. If that's what you've found, go for it. If not, keep looking.

In my fraternity, I'm hardly the only "nerd" around in terms of interests. We may not look like it from the outside but the topics we will discuss in our free time (which is sometimes at 3 in the morning) include everything from the typical college scene, to Israel/Palestine, Obama/McCain, melting polar caps, and the philosophy of death. I can easily say that my fraternity in college has let me find those guys that I want to be there at my wedding...not to mention gave me a number of fun stories to tell later!

Shoot me an email (it's in my profile) and we can gladly talk more about this if you want.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your last question! I think it might come as a surprise to some, but the things you will need to learn to fit in a fraternity are the same sorts of skills you need to be successful and outgoing in society. Don't focus on "learning drinking games"...but more on learning to be social, outgoing, raising your public speaking skills, etc. You'll find out that learning those skills not only makes college life a lot cooler (you'll also turn into a leader and hone those skills) but also raise you in society, and that covers everything from nailing a job interview to successfully talking to a lady.

augiehill2• 16 years ago

Own the geekiness.

Being comfortable and confident with who you are is the most important thing in life IMO, and other people gravitate towards people that are confident.

You can't fundamentally change who you are... it just doesn't happen, but you can grow gradually through your experiences, so I say take full ownership of who you are and don't force yourself into super uncomfortable situations. I say try it out, but be prepared to drop it if you find that it's just not for you.

JoeAltmaier2• 16 years ago

Disagree. I decided in college to quit being the shy farm kid. Worked out great. Its just a matter of practice.

augiehill2• 16 years ago

I should elaborate. I think he should work on being more social, but not necessarily social like the guys in the frats. Don't do what they do... be outgoing in your own way and be true to yourself. Wear those Magic: The Gathering t-shirts if that's what you love and you're guaranteed to find people that share your interests and who you will enjoy the company of more.

SteveMorin• 16 years ago

1) Just join it's better jump in the water so to speak, because if you wait a semester more than likely things won't be very different from the way they are now.

2) The is no catching up so to speak. But the closest thing you can probably is to just show up to all the events, chapter meetings, socials with sororities, and things with your pledge class. Observe and thing will start to come naturally, and don't be afraid so speak up.

If I think of the errors people make is trying to hard. Don't try too hard, if you do people will pick up one that and it will back fire.

I wasn't always very social, joined a fraternity in college(which wasn't my natural inclination) and was for the first year the only engineer in my fraternity. My senior year there were three of us out of 80 guys. I was eventually VP of my fraternity. So things can totally work out.

Honestly I think joining a fraternity can be one of the best things you do. But it's a lot like schools, girls or cars, you need the one that's right for you. Just like startups or companies the culture can be very different. Yes I said culture. Pick one where there are generally good people, there are always asholes in every organization but is almost everyone a ashole or one or two.

Just because you join a fraternity you don't have to give in to peer pressure, stand up for what you believe in ultimately when it matters, because a lot of things don't matter.

If you want to socialize your self more don't pick a academic fraternity based on what I believe your goals that you described.

Look your a hacker mean your smart, mean you can definitely figure things out. Go with the flow, RELAX and don't make a big deal of things in your head, when things don't go as smooth as you like, because in all likely hood your the only one who noticed.

Trick number one, none of the other pledges know what their doing either even if they are social don't worry about it.

Don't worry about dancing especially, guys never know what they are doing especially in college.

If you want any more advice shoot me a email, find it in my profile

joshhart• 16 years ago

Do it. I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds bonds with your pledge brothers

I spent my first three years at the University of Florida not in a fraternity, spending most of my time doing homework. My classmates in engineering were incredibly boring people. My fourth year, I decided I couldn't do another year of it and I either needed to take some time off or make a radical change.

I joined a lower-mid fraternity(DTD - could have done "better" had I understood rush, but it was an excellent fit for me) and started enjoying college for the first time. I met my fiancee at a social there. My best memories of college are probably the time I "wasted" shooting the shit during lunch at my fraternity.

gte910h5• 16 years ago

> I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds bonds with your pledge brothers

After being in one that had a very stringent no hazing policy which they stuck to, I doubt that hazing would make me feel better about anyone in that group or my incoming class.

jpdbaugh2• 16 years ago

I think there is a definite difference between positive hazing and negative hazing. Positive to me would be dropping off the pledge class in the woods or something and having them find their way home. Negative would be sexual abuse. I think the former definitely builds bonds and is just a whole lot of fun.

tlrobinson• 16 years ago

I'm another introverted engineer who was in a fraternity in college and lived to talk about it.

Much more important than your social skills being up to par is whether you think you'll get along with the other guys in your pledge class, and the rest of the fraternity. They will become some of your best friends, so if you hate them then don't do it.

Which college and/or fraternity, if you don't mind me asking?

reader5000• 16 years ago

I can tell you are going to go for it. This is good; don't wait a semester or whatever. As far as "catching up" socially, a lot of that is in your head (i.e., nobody is thinking "hey Introverty is a one-of-a-kind shy awkward loser"). Virtually every one of your freshmen classmates is socially unsure; that's college. People just deal with it differently: some by being drunken and obnoxious, others by never going outside. If you find you can never seem to warm up in social situations (that is, always finding them agonizing to the point of avoidance) you may want to look into anti-anxiety medications (or diet modifications) that will help your confidence.

taelor_rb• 16 years ago

Love this post, and I hope my thoughts can help. I am fairly recent Comp Sci grad who is probably one of the most well liked guys in my Fraternity, as well as other frats.

Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process?

Yes and yes.

If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how?

A few things:

1) Think before you talk/act, aka, don't do anything stupid/embarrassing. I see so many guys just blurt shit out that they think is funny, but actually makes people (girls) feel super uncomfortable.

2) Be nice. Always. Don't be condescending or every try and look down on others. Be polite and a gentleman. Don't try and be some macho dick head guy like alot of the other frat guys are. The more you help your brothers out (as well as other fraternity guys) the more they will have your back.

3) Figure out who some of the most well liked guys in the fraternity are, watch them, learn from them. Emulate (not imitate) and build on the things they say and do.

4) Be confident, but not cocky.

5) Careful on the drinking and such. Start off in smaller groups so you can get the hang of it. Once you know how much you can tolerate, then you can start drinking in larger groups and start letting lose.

6) Chicks are really starting to dig nerds, as long as your cool about it. Embrace it, just don't go overboard with it.

BTW, your obviously not truly an introvert, otherwise you probably would be having the urges to change. You prolly just went to some shitty high school with shitty people. College is a great time to really find yourself, and be yourself.

I hope some of these words will help, and if you wanna talk more, let me know. Hell, I love road trips, I'll come drink and party with a hacker anytime.

Curious, who did you pledge?

forkandwait• 16 years ago

I can't comment on the frat aspect, but I can comment on how to be become extroverted: take some theater classes at the junior college. After 2 semesters of acting -- getting up in front of people and trying to project emotion and drama while interacting with your fellow actors -- you will never consider yourself shy again.

cmos• 16 years ago

This over and over again!

My mother forced me to try out for drama my freshman year of high school. She bothered me all summer and said that if I tried out, I could choose whether to join or not, and she would never bother me again. I was shy, introverted and scared of most social situations that didn't involve my 4 highly geeky childhood friends. Going up on stage was simply not going to be something I was going to do. I agreed to go just so she would stop bothering me.

Brilliantly enough, I met so many girls during the audition and even got invited to a party later that night that I sang 'happy birthday' out of key and got the part of 'man with umbrella'. It never occurred to me after that day to not do drama. (FYI: men will usually always get some chorus part, and even if you can't sing, you'll be in a group of people who can, which is 10x easier than alone)

I did a musical every year throughout high school and had the _time_ of my life. It made it easy to speak in public, win business plan competitions, talk at trade shows, cold call people for sales, do interviews in front of a camera, and got me invited to 3-4 formals per year during high school.

If you want to start your own company this is the most fun way to be learning extroversion.

nkurz2• 16 years ago

Just wondering: does the concept of fraternities make any sense to non-US readers? Are there parallels elsewhere? I went to a school in the US, but one that had abolished them years before I got there. I never felt that I was missing something. But it's interesting to read all the positive responses here.

True or not, one often hears that that US higher education is the best in the world. To my knowledge, only the US has fraternities and sororities: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>.... And yet I've never heard anyone claim that this is our secret advantage. Perhaps?

jacobolus• 16 years ago

No. That’s not our secret advantage. This is our secret advantage: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america...

> By far the best thing about America is its universities. Not Harvard, Yale, e tutti quanti: though marvelous, they are not distinctively American—their roots reach across the ocean to Oxford, Heidelberg, and beyond. Nowhere else in the world, however, can boast such public universities. You drive for miles across a godforsaken midwestern scrubscape, pockmarked by billboards, Motel 6s, and a military parade of food chains, when—like some pedagogical mirage dreamed up by nineteenth-century English gentlemen—there appears…a library! And not just any library: at Bloomington, the University of Indiana boasts a 7.8-million-volume collection in more than nine hundred languages, housed in a magnificent double-towered mausoleum of Indiana limestone.

> A little over a hundred miles northwest across another empty cornscape there hoves into view the oasis of Champaign-Urbana: an unprepossessing college town housing a library of over ten million volumes. Even the smallest of these land grant universities—the University of Vermont at Burlington, or Wyoming’s isolated campus at Laramie—can boast collections, resources, facilities, and ambitions that most ancient European establishments can only envy.[fn1]

> ...

> My own perspective is still colored by that year in Davis. Originally the agricultural extension of the University of California, precariously perched amid the rice paddies of the Sacramento River delta—halfway between San Francisco and nowhere in particular—UC Davis now boasts 3.3 million volumes, a world-class research faculty, and the country’s leading green energy program. Some of the most interesting colleagues I know have spent their lives in Davis. At the time, however, this was a mystery to me: the year completed, I retreated cautiously to the Olde English familiarity of Cambridge. But nothing was quite the same. Cambridge itself felt somehow reduced and constricting: the pancake-flat Fenland as remote as any rice paddy. Everywhere is somewhere else’s nowhere.

> [fn1]: By way of comparison, the University Library in Cambridge, England, boasts just seven million volumes; the University of Vienna (founded in 1365) just 6.6 million.

nkurz2• 16 years ago

Great article, thanks! I agree about the libraries. While the internet probably levels the field, I've visited libraries in many countries and feel confident saying that public libraries are one of things that America does right.

Bootvis• 16 years ago

From wikipedia "although it is also applied to analogous European groups also known as corporations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_(university).

xyzzyz• 16 years ago

There are no fraternities in Poland, at least none that I am aware of. Reading this thread, I came to believe that main purpose of frats is making new friends and/or creating artificial bonds with other people. This does not make much sense here -- the country is not that big, and many people attend universities near their living place and they don't feel so lost in a completely new place, as they commute every day. People whose universities are too far for them to commute, frequently live in school's dormitory, and its social system pretty much resembles the fraternity's one.

The correlation between fraternities and the quality of education is in my opinion artificial. I don't really know much about the US system, but I guess the main reason behind such quality is high funding.

zalew• 16 years ago

Yeah, being Polish too I never get these artificial forms of socializing which I always see in American movies. I even don't get these 'drinking games' - can't you just drink the booze and talk/party without all those strange add-ons - games, contests, tests?

I don't know a lot of Americans but I always thought it's a nationality easy to socialize with, and most of which I met IRL confirmed this POV. Existence of such organized social groups always make me wonder - why do you need them?

chriseidhof• 16 years ago

We have that as well (in the Netherlands). Most of the time, though, our "student societies" are mixed. I can definitely recommend you to join one: just have fun and you'll learn as you go. Don't worry too much about the skills you have, just show up and you'll learn.

mvalle• 16 years ago

No, it doesn't. I read the Wikipedia's overly academic description and I still don't get it. (And I've never heard of corporations either.)

Luc• 16 years ago

In Belgium we have (mixed) student societies, mostly set up by study choice (e.g. the 'Maths & Physics Society'), and some unpleasant ones around politics. New students get a hazing, after which they all wear lab coats with drawings on them and adopt new names. Activities center mostly around drinking and singing songs ('cantusses') in Latin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudeamus_igitur ), or so it seems to me anyway. My memory of these events is really rather hazy.

makmanalp• 16 years ago

Maybe that's why they call it hazing? </badjoke>

mixu• 16 years ago

Not to my knowledge. The core reason is that in many countries, universities don't have campuses in the same sense that universities in the US seem to have. My experience is from the Nordic countries (spent a few years chairing various student associations), and we do have student unions, nations and subject/interest -based associations, but these are all different.

A quick rundown:

The student unions (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_unionism_in_Finland ) are part of the university administration, have 100's of millions in assets and provide basic services (healthcare, apartments, places to party) in exchange for 40+ euros per year.

The subject- and interest-based associations are separate entities that get some funding from the student union and organize events. They don't charge, and mostly get their cash from organizing events. However, since everybody lives around town, the interactions are more focused around specific events. The nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_(university) ) are a lot like the student associations, except they are specific to people from a particular area in the country (not strictly enforced), have a bit more money (e.g. may have their own apartments) and organize activities centered around traditions and whatever is popular.

Thanks for a good question, interesting to see the parallels in other countries...

metamemetics4• 16 years ago

Quit and join campus activities that actually interest you. You will have a much better college experience if you say, join the Campus Radio because you like music and everyone else is there because they like music. In most greek fraternities, there is usually zero shared interest why you're there. It's an institution with no core purpose or function other than guaranteeing its own survival by luring in more freshmen. At least the large monolithic bureaucratic organizations in our society exist to fulfill some purpose, however inefficiently.

In business, you choose your associates carefully and don't spend time with people who bring down your focus and energy. Rushing a fraternity is the opposite of choosing your associates carefully. It's taking a big risk on who your going to be stuck with for the next 4 years and gambling away your identity.

When you commit yourself to a time intensive organization or social group, it becomes your identity to everyone else (like it or not). If you want to live a self-aware life, only commit your time and identity to organizations whose function and purpose you passionately believe in.

If you are doing it to party, rest assured other campus organizations will party just as much. If you are doing it to meet girls, do community service instead. Trust me, hot girls LOVE doing community service.

edit: thanks for the downvotes, br0s.

Challenge to any fraternity members: How are Greek Fraternities not the exact definition of a "sick system" as defined here: http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html and discussed thoroughly on YC here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1677013

Zev2• 16 years ago

There's a benefit to getting to know people with interests other than yours. Perhaps you'll discover that you actually like something new.

metamemetics4• 16 years ago

Agreed. However (analogy) if you want to get to know someone you go on a date, not get married.

skowmunk• 16 years ago

I have been an extroverted kid, then became big time shy and timid as a teen and now getting out of it.

From experience and observation, I would say, you being shy and timid so far doesn't mean you have to be like that forever or you will be like that forever.

Yes, you can definitely improve, there is no magic pill, just get yourself into social situations with crowds, try to open out and learn from errors, you may stumble sometimes, you may embarrass yourself sometimes, but none of them are going to kill you.

You can even use your embarrassment as funny stories later.

But don't wait to work on your social skills and then pledge, use this exposure itself as a tool to increase your social quotient.

Make and surround yourself with some understanding friends but relatively more extroverted people. It can help.

Good luck.

JangoSteve• 16 years ago

When I started college (I'm an Engineer), I was relatively extroverted, but definitely not a partier or drinker. I wanted to make some of the same changes you discuss, so I rushed a couple fraternities and made a lot of friends. I got bids from 3 fraternities but didn't go with any of them, because in the end, as much as I liked the people, the fraternity lifestyle just didn't jive with my independence.

I was still able to become well-entrenched in the social scenes, because I participated in a lot of extra-curricular activities: Formula SAE, Mobile Robotics, WKUF 97.3FM, The Muse (our art publication), DEX (collegiate marketing competition), Firebirds Car Club, started a rock band, etc. These are all things that interested me, and I met a lot of friends, across all fraternities and sororities and independents, who shared these interests.

My point is this: there are a lot of ways to make friends, be social, and party. Don't sell yourself short by thinking that a fraternity is the only path. There are a lot of good reasons to join a fraternity outside of the social/party aspect, those are the things you should be considering. If a fraternity seems right to you, then do it. If not, don't worry, there are other ways.

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't worry about "catching up" socially. Just try to enjoy yourself. And remember that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something to teach you. Make it your mission to figure out what that is (and yes, this will be harder with some people than others).

yardie• 16 years ago

Wow, your experience reads almost exactly like mine. I wasn't an introvert just choosey about friends. I also did Formula SAE, Solar car racing, started a magazine with design students, started a culture-based student org. and DJed at WUVT (90.7) and house parties.

Good fraternities really play down the social networking aspect of themselves. If you even bring up parties and networking during rush they usually see it as a turn off. This comes from friends that wanted me to join, but since I already had a full calendar wouldn't have time for one more thing.

andre3k1• 16 years ago

I'm in a fraternity and can give you some coached advice. Every year we like to pull in that stereotypical, socially-awkward kid.

Why? Because their funny.

Your best bet is to be honest about your social ineptitude and play it off in a comedic fashion.

Pledging (and being around the older guys) will help you develop the social skills that you desire. If you're a hacker you're probably logical and analytical as hell. When you go out with these guys analyze them and what they do. Break it down and repeat their processes. What works for them will work for you.

j_baker• 16 years ago

"But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on."

Here's the thing you have to understand: the ideas of introversion and extraversion that you hear are usually a bit of an oversimplification. Everyone has an introverted and extraverted side. It's just that one of them is always dominant.

With that in mind, there's nothing wrong with developing your extraverted side. But it sounds like you're trying to change from being an introvert to an extravert which is futile. I know that I (as an introvert) wouldn't be able to handle a fraternity: I'd simply be too drained by the experience.

Instead, learn to enjoy being introverted and engage your extraverted side from time to time. You'll be much better off that way.

swaits• 16 years ago

Since we're offering advice, here's mine: Run away!

pavelludiq• 16 years ago

Speaking as a shy person, who managed to mostly outgrow his shyness, remember these simple pieces of advice:

Know when you're being obnoxious, and don't be. Be nice, but don't let others push you around. Talk less, listen more, people like it when others listen to their BS, and don't like to listen to your BS. Don't be arrogant, don't assume people are stupider than you, even if they are. Be funny, but only from time to time, if you find yourself making an ass of yourself all or most of the time, calm down. Most importantly, be bold. Start small, talk to a stranger, do something stupid, or anything that makes you a bit uncomfortable, and gradually move up to the harder stuff, like asking a girl out, or something like that.

Don't be afraid of humiliating yourself to much. After you internalize the fact that being humiliated isn't so bad, being bold will not be to much of a problem, and you'll be less shy.

p.s.(if you have bad hygiene, start with that, being smelly makes most of the above advice useless.)

jpcx01• 16 years ago

I had the same urge. I had been an introverted hacker all through high school, and when I went to college wanted a change. So I joined a fraternity.

It didn't work out. The frat guys were cool, but they did stuff you would expect frat guys to do. And after a few weeks of it, I got really really bored. The parties were somewhat fun but only for the drinking. Not a lot of interesting conversation to be had.

After a month, I bailed and switched over to the dorms. Can tell you I was much happier there, hanging with people who I had something in common with.

DuncanIdaho3• 16 years ago

I was in your shoes once. Now I'm widely considered as one of most socially apt/spontaneous people in any group.

By all means - be bold. Heed my advice that fear is good while phobias are bad. You should embrace fear - since fear is what will motivate you to prepare for your encounters. While systematically working against your phobias. The only way to demolish your "phobias" is by acting against your fight/flight impulses.

Do not be affraid of making a fool of yourself. Because You WILL make a fool of yourself. Embrace it. Tell people about it. Remember you should always put your shortcomings/weak spots in public view (hide in plain sight). Thus people who will try to "damage" you will try to find your hidden spots - where you are actually the "hardest".

One thing that has worked for me (YMMV) is not to "follow" people. ESPECIALLY popular people - find "weak" people and start helping them on feeling better about themselves, help them out socially (the mere fact that you posted here is a sign that you are not so inept as you think of yourself). Thus you will create your own following - eventually converting the "popular" people into your own followers.

And listen to "Wear Sunscreen" - it contains all the secrets of the trade. That is all there is to it.

dan00• 16 years ago

You've to differentiate between introversion and shyness. Introversion can't be overcome in the same way as shyness.

Introversion is a deep personal habit. If you don't like crowds, than you will never be able to enjoy them as extrovert people. You can get more used to them, but they will always exhaust you.

Shyness is more of a learnt habit, the result of missing interactions with people and the result of a low self-confidence. When you interact more with people and rise your self-confidence, than also the shyness will decrease.

xiongchiamiov2• 16 years ago

Good point. I'm most certainly an introvert (I scored straight 100s in S and C on a recent DISC assessment), but not what I would consider shy. I'm not afraid of talking to people; I just normally don't have anything to say (or prefer to keep my snarky responses to myself).

tchae• 16 years ago

Hey, it's important to take the #JFDI concept and put it to this as well. I'm a very extroverted individual (makes sense since I focus on the actual business part of startups - non-tech) and I can say I have this same "shy and sheltered" personality about entering the engineering scene.

God knows, how much I would love to get into it, as I'm sure you would love to get into the whole social scene.

Don't worry about "where to start" "who to talk to" "what to learn and how". Just fucking do it. Although I'm not encouraging underage drinking, pick up a cup, don't get too crazy, have a good time.

While you are trying to be social and extroverted for maybe the first time of your life, the ONLY thing that is going to make you look awkward to your frat brothers or any other people is how YOU see yourself.

Don't hesitate, get out there, get knee deep into the scene and pretty soon you'll have friends who appreciate you and you will be able to be real open with all of them.

drewmast• 16 years ago

Go for it! And, no don't wait.. the harder your course load gets, the more excuses you'll make.

Some of my best friends today are guys I never would have met (or probably even liked, for that matter) without having shared the whole fraternity experience. And, I'm talking about the "boring" stuff when I say frat experience. Working on projects, figuring out creative ways to get 60+ guys to do something they didn't want to do, volunteering, etc., etc.

It's just like anything else, it's what you make of it, and what your trying to get out of it. I saw guys who were really good at all the social stuff, but never took a thing from the overall bigger experience and just kind of faded out. I also saw people who came in without all that (very shy, didn't know how to play games or whatever). They wanted to grow as a person, and gain experience being apart of a team, build leadership skills, and what not, they could and really did thrive, and became just amazing leaders later on.

To answer your questions though: Don't worry about it, and just be yourself! My fraternity would invite people over to hang out a few times or go watch some game or something before ever even talking about parties. This was a way to weed out people only interested in that. Not everyone just gets a bid to keep the organization alive like a few posters mentioned.

For your situation, (which isn't unusual, and probably everyone else is also worried about it) this would be an awesome time for you to "get in" and get to know guys in a non-party setting. Get to know people like that, and the social part will just fall into place. You'll be hanging out with new friends rather than being worried about being in a big crowd or drinking or whatever.

You got a lot of advice, so I won't go on. I do have things I didn't really like as well but overall it was a really great experience. E-mail me if you want more, there's a pretty good movie I can recommend that is the most "right on" portrayal of Greek life, and the lead character is some guy without any social skills who is concerned about the same things you are. (If you watch though, don't ever tell your brothers because they will make fun of you. However, always, always, be trying to figure out a way to bring it up in conversations with girls..)

wybo• 16 years ago

I joined a small fraternity (or student association as they are called in the Netherlands) relatively late in my course. If I regret anything, it is not joining earlier.

It is great fun, and there is a lot in terms of social skills, working in groups, and fulfilling roles, that you will learn along the way. Don't worry about making a fool of yourself, because as long as you do it with a smile (and say sorry where due), people will like you for it :-) Drinking before you do this will also help :-)

And about making your pick: I'd go for a smaller one (~ 200 members), that you feel at home at. The people there will most likely be more diverse and welcoming.

I went through a (moderate) hazing, and even that is not too bad, as long as you remember that it is a game, and that it will only last for a specific amount of time. Running away is the only mistake you can make.

baby• 16 years ago

just get drunk. The alcohol will do the rest.

brk• 16 years ago

Wow a lot of good responses here.

One thing I didn't see though is that most fraternities assign you a "big brother" as a sort of mentor and helper through your pledge process. Hopefully you have (or will get) a Big Brother who you can ask for advice and direction through the process.

The rest of it will come naturally if it's what you really want. Don't get too hung up on the details, just let yourself actually enjoy the experience. If you do, I'm sure you will learn a lot, teach a lot, and make friends for life.

mahmud• 16 years ago

FWIW, you will be in close proximity with other men, living in a house with them, hanging out on the couch with them, passing out and prancing around. However shitty your life might be now, at least you don't wake up to a 21 cock salute. I managed a property that a frat lived in, and seriously, it IS a greek society.

It's also my opinion that ex-frat members retain that weird Vince Vaughn "dude" attitude well past their prime.

I recommend you join groups that are not self-segregating either by gender or anything else. Art and culture groups are nice.

gte910h5• 16 years ago

Make sure you've chosen men you wish to become like; you do become like those you associate with. Make sure they're just, reasonable, and not buffoons or asses.

Past that, joining a Fraternity is one of the easiest ways to learn some of the soft skills of adulthood, including asking out women, enjoying the company of strangers, learning storytelling, learning smalltalk, and completing project involving the motivation and leadership of other men.

Some of them are a also a good way to learn poor habits with alcohol or distasteful treatment of women: Make sure you aren't in one of those.

Additionally, many of them do bad things to your grades (however on average, most greeks do better than non-greeks gradewise). Make sure you're in one who has one of the higher 2-3 grades on campus with stringent grade standards.

Usually in most fraternity organizations, you get a guide/brother assigned to you; bring up some of your doubts with him and you may find out he will have some suggestions for you and be able to help some.

zck• 16 years ago

I've recommended it before; I'll recommend it again: improv. The other new people there won't know what they're doing either, so everyone else will be just as awkward as you are. It will teach you to be more comfortable in the spotlight, even when you have no idea what you're going to say next, or what you're currently saying. It also ends at a specified time (e.g., improv club meets from 9:00 to 10:30), so you don't have to make excuses to leave.

Besides, it's a crazy amount of fun.

cseric• 16 years ago

go build facebook.

alexsherrick• 16 years ago

I'm sure many people won't read this bc it will be buried, but if you want to give a frat a shot you should. I graduated college about a year ago from UT, and it was the best time of my life. However, you don't need a frat. I had plenty of friends that were in frats, but I chose to party on my own, I feel like you meet more "genuine" people outside of the Greek system. I'd love to talk to you about how to be more social in college if you are up for it. Not sure if you can PM in HN, but look me up on reddit or facebook.

Take it easy and relax, don't stress about meeting people, you will come out of college with the best friends of your life.

viggity• 16 years ago

Joining a fraternity was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It is a million times more easy to become involved on campus activities when you have a large social network via the Fraternity.

I've got 100 friends for life, 20 of which I see frequently at various events like Homecoming or football games.

Stay with it until you get a better feeling for how well you mesh with everyone else and decide then - just make sure that you give it your all and try to hang out with them as much as possible.

Good Luck.

xiongchiamiov2• 16 years ago

I was in the marching band my first quarter. There are 200 people I know at every football game.

jpdbaugh2• 16 years ago

Shop for a fraternity wisely. How well you respect and enjoy being around the guys is far more important than the fraternity's social status on campus! I think that is the most important thing to remember.

I'm an introverted hacker. I want to join a frat.

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