Some things I love about Hacker News (and a few I don’t)

http://ryanwaggoner.com/2010/09/some-things-i-love-about-hacker-news-and-a-few-i-dont/

by ryanwaggoner • 16 years ago

135 95 16 years ago

I know this probably seems like linkbait, but I truly didn't write it for that purpose. Just wanted to post it here to say thanks (truly) to everyone who makes HN such an amazing community. It's one of the best things about the Internet for me.

gizmomagico3• 16 years ago

You forgot about Political Correctness. Despite all the intellectualism, we can't discuss things that are:

  - Outside of the realm of rainbows & unicorns
  - Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)

secret• 16 years ago

I'm not sure that's entirely true, although I've seen certain topics frowned upon in a general sense (I'm thinking of politics). What do you have in mind?

pmjordan• 16 years ago

Not in my experience. Sure, if the post is either offtopic (to the site) or easily mistaken for trolling, it's going to be downvoted pretty quickly.

From the guidelines:

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

So even if it's related to the original submission, a post might be off-topic.

code_duck2• 16 years ago

You're also not allowed to say non-flattering things about people who HN holds dear. I guess that fits under 'inconvenient truths'.

This place is great, but there is a bit of orthodoxy in the mindset - quite unfortunate, actually, as I don't think that fits at all with the 'hacker' mindset.

jrockway• 16 years ago

Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)

It's because any time someone uses this expression, they are trying to convince everyone that we should adopt their harebrained flat tax strategy, or something. When someone has evidence to assert their beliefs, everyone listens. When someone starts spouting garbage about the "inconvenient truth" about how the rich are being oppressed by a 20% tax rate... well, then everyone tunes out.

cynicalkane• 16 years ago

It's very rare to see a well-articulated, reasonable opinion get downvoted on this website.

HN seems to be slowly catching the disease where stupid popular opinions get upvoted an unreasonable amount (I call this "Slashdot Disease"), but this isn't nearly as dangerous as censorship by downvote.

terra_t• 16 years ago

It seems to me that in 99% of the world, business people look down on programmers, so it's nice to see there's a little corner of the world in which it's the other way around.

webwright2• 16 years ago

Really? Why is that "nice"? I think it's sad-- and even sadder that you wrote that and people voted it up. If one minority is stepped on in a corner of the world, it is NOT justice if members of that same minority get to step on someone else across the globe. We should judge people as individuals.

For some (very rare) software companies, pure business guys aren't super useful in the early days (Dropbox seems like an obvious example, though they certainly now need a good finance person and senior bizdev person). For the rest, an A-level sales/bizdev guy can literally make the business. Do you think Groupon is a technological feat or a business feat?

They're just like programmers (and the rest of the planet). 95% of them AREN'T A-level players, but the rest are changing the world.

trustfundbaby3• 16 years ago

You're taking it a little too seriously. Its not about justice or anything like that.

Its better to think of it as it being nice to have a little part of internet, where your opinions as a hacker actually carry as much weight (if not more) than the typical business guy.

il3• 16 years ago

Note that it's usually the programmers who have never had a successful startup who look down on business people and then wonder why their project failed.

trustfundbaby3• 16 years ago

Not supporting a condescending attitude but how many of those business people have had successful startups of their own?

jswinghammer• 16 years ago

One of the things I like is that when you email someone here asking for help or advice they're quite nice about it. I've gotten some very thoughtful responses from people here when I've asked for feedback.

subbu• 16 years ago

I have found it to be true too. I have gotten answers to some business related questions that others treat as secrets.

Keyframe• 16 years ago

I even got a few emails, out of nowhere, furthering discussion that was started here. It was rather surprising (in a good way) and overall feeling I get when I talk to anyone from here (either here or email) is like that from a close colleague that I have respect for and whom I can trust.

One thing I've learned about HN though, don't write anything negative about Apple. Ever. :)

mattmaroon• 16 years ago

A solid rule if you care about karma. Except as regards to the iOS app store policies. Then you'll even find agreement when criticizing.

I think all Apple criticism will become more well-received over time as people have their Animal Farm moment and realize the pigs have become indiscernible from the humans.

jamesbritt• 16 years ago

And a reminder/suggestion for people: If you're open to being contacted, put contact info in the 'about' section of your profile so people can see it.

gusper• 16 years ago

While it may be a bit of a time-sink, it's also very streamlined and efficient to consume. I love how visually simple it is: no images, the careful use of dark/light text, formatting of comments, lack of ads, etc. Compared to the other sites I still frequent, admittedly less and less since discovering HN, the differences are not minor. Definitely becoming a big fan though still very much an HN rookie.

jeromec2• 16 years ago

I enjoyed this article, but I would suggest a minor correction: PG is phenomenal, but I don't believe he is responsible for shifting the balance of power from investors to founders. I think that's a function of technology and the Internet itself, as barriers to start a startup continue to be lowered. In fact, PG himself said in a TC interview there was a time (not long ago) when you almost literally had to ask permission from investors to launch a startup. That has changed, and would have been the case with or without PG, I'm fairly sure. I do, however, believe PG seriously helps to educate, encourage, and facilitate startups on the road to success within this natural function, a handful directly as YC companies, and many more through everything else he does, like his essays, Startup School, and HN.

One thing I'd add to the list of dislikes of HN is how some downvoting is applied. I think downvotes are great as a mod tool for shunning comments that are hollow, trollish, or otherwise don't contribute to the discussion. What I dislike is seeing downvotes applied carelessly because of casual disagreement with a commment which is otherwise well thought out. I'd rather people actually reply expressing their dissent, which at least gives the chance for rebuttal and further debate. Downvoting is the easy way out, and tends to look rather insulting to me, because being at zero or sub-zero relegates serious commenters to the same class as trolls. I don't think that encourages a healthy commenting community.

grellas• 16 years ago

Back in the day (1980s, 1990s), only a closed circle of serial entrepreneurs knew the ins and outs of the business/legal side of launching and building a startup and the paucity of information available to those outside this circle was a major barrier to entry for young entrepreneurs, even within Silicon Valley. Beyond that, you basically had to be in Silicon Valley, or in one of only a very few other centers within the United States, to have a ghost of a chance of putting together a credible team for a startup. When you add to that the capital-intensive requirements for any credible startup back then (usually, a need for $2M to $4M out the gate to fund server purchases, etc. and to put together a quality team of high-priced engineers who, mainly for lack of knowledge, were not otherwise drawn to the startup world as they are today), most doors were closed to young founders, other than as they were willing to become supplicants at the VC entry point into this world.

All that has changed, and decisively so. I would say that PG, as innovator, funder, and philosophical guru for the new breed of entrepreneurs that no longer faces the old barriers, is a major symbol of that change and a major contributor to it. I agree, though, that it is inaccurate to say that he single-handedly or even primarily made it possible.

It has been fascinating to watch all this occur over the years. Founders were once little more than grist for the VC mill. All that has changed, and I don't see it ever going back. Investors remain invaluable to the process but today are required to deal with founders on terms tipping much closer to equality of bargaining power than ever before.

ryanwaggoner5• 16 years ago

I agree with you and the parent, and just want to point out that I did say that PG was helping shift the balance of power. I think having someone with power and money and influence in the valley who consistently demonstrates that hungry startups can build great things with almost no money must have some kind of effect.

jallmann• 16 years ago

Totally agree on the downvoting part. In general (as someone said earlier), the most 'careless' downvotes are self-correcting to some extent. But yes, getting downvoted on the basis of disagreement stings a bit. Other than that, HN is a fantastic community.

Maybe a karma-like system where people were only allowed to use a limited number of downvotes would make them consider doing so more closely.

dgudkov• 16 years ago

I wish HN have good habit - when downvoting, explain why.

todayiamme• 16 years ago

>>>What I dislike is seeing downvotes applied carelessly because of casual disagreement with a commment which is otherwise well thought out. I'd rather people actually reply expressing their dissent, which at least gives the chance for rebuttal and further debate. Downvoting is the easy way out, and tends to look rather insulting to me, because being at zero or sub-zero relegates serious commenters to the same class as trolls.<<<

You know what's the sad part? In this process the lowest common denominator always rises up. Further, I've noticed that this varies from thread to thread. If you pick up a technical thread then you find insightful things on the top, but if you pick up something general that everyone thinks they can take a stab at you will usually find the simplest concept up there.

The more complex thought out ones tend to stay at the bottom, because most people don't take the time to read through them and understand what the author is saying. It's this human tendency to get attracted to the simple bright lights instead of the beautiful kaleidoscopic pattern in the sky.

Further, much of the quality of discussion is influenced by the subtlety of the matter hand. It's like the audience for each thread is difference and there is a stark contrast between these HN groups.

It's for reasons like these that I have almost quit commenting on non-technical articles. Most people don't even refute my arguments they simply down vote the hell out of me as if I am spam, especially if I say something that goes against the party line of that particular thread (certain threads invite certain kinds of people which leads to group think). That is insulting.

However, I won't quit until I find a solution to this problem. So, that I can help Mr. Graham in fixing this instead of just sending a rant to him.

sdh• 16 years ago

dislike: target != new

like: everything else :)

nkurz• 16 years ago

Some people seem to agree with you, but I much prefer it the way it is: if I want a new window, I shift-click; if I want a new tab, I cntl-click; if I want to keep it in the same window, I just click.

This seems like the sanest choice to me, since everyone can have it work how they want, even if their preferences change from time to time. Or is it possible for everyone to get their desired behaviour even with "target = new"?

http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_wind...

sesqu• 16 years ago

I tend to dislike sites that use target=_new. If I want to open a link in a new tab, I'll middle click it.

messel• 16 years ago

You mentioned how bright and knowledgeable the comments are to posts and I'd like to add to that idea.

One feature of HN comments is the pseudo-anonymity. I can find out who folks are, if they share info on their ID, but the way the comments are laid out I'm usually reading the bolder toned conversations and ignoring who's saying it. That's a very powerful concept.

Only when a comment really stands out as awesome or terrible do I look at the author.

ryanwaggoner5• 16 years ago

It's true, but it's also fascinating to me that some people have built such a powerful voice here. I can't count the number of times I've been reading a really good comment and thought "this has to be patrick" and sure enough, patio11. And he's not the only one.

detst• 16 years ago

Yeah, I find myself doing that, too.

In fact, I made this observation in response to one of his comments a couple months back.

I will also start reading a discussion thread that I'm pretty sure he will comment on and stop so that I can come back later to read what he has to say.

lotharbot3• 16 years ago

On most forums I've been to, the username is prominently displayed above or next to a comment, along with an avatar, a way-too-large signature, and various other cruft. The end result is that each comment is contained in a rather large, personalized box, and many comments are judged by the box rather than the contents.

Here on HN, there's a tiny username, in a dim font, in the middle of the line (given less prominence than "points"). This is even true of pg; his comments look just like anyone else's. This has the net result that comments are primarily judged on their contents.

I often have exchanges like this with my wife: Her: "I read a really good comment on [such-and-such HN thread], it said [contents]." Me: "I wrote that." Her: "Oh. I gave you an upvote."

sabat3• 16 years ago

I love HN and spend way too much time on here.

Three things that disappoint me:

* dog-pile downvoting on comments that are valid but that others may merely disagree with

* the practice of killing apparently valid stories with no explanation

* no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired

aneth4• 16 years ago

Hold apple or alt when clicking on a link to open in a new frame.

nuclear_eclipse• 16 years ago

Or middle click in just about every browser newer than IE6...

sabat3• 16 years ago

Well, yeah. I just want it to be the default instead of having to remember to hold down the command key to open in a new tab. It's a petty complaint, I do realize. :-)

jonny_noog• 16 years ago

no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired

I have always seen a default option to open links in the same window as a small but definite signal that a site is more geared towards technical people who know how to open a new tab/window if and when they want one.

I'm so used to mouse gesturing a line up across a link to open it in a new window, I often confuse myself when I'm using a browser without this capability.

mdoyle2• 16 years ago

I've only recently joined, posted my first request for advice and received some great advice. In a world of social sites where people just tell you what they had for dinner, this site feels like a great find which is full of interesting articles and debates. My only gripe is that I would like external links to open in a new tab or window if anything.

mdoyle2• 16 years ago

I also quite like the fact that the community moderates the content. Big plus point for me.

shadowsun74• 16 years ago

What I like most about HN is that it's an incredibly efficient filter for reading.

For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically think about it - I instead open the HN comment thread and read all the intelligent for/against arguments that arise, naturally, in the comments.

In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time.

Of course - this doesn't happen in a vacuum. The beauty of HN is that if you've read an interesting article, and there aren't many comments at that point in time, it's your duty to add your thoughts to HN, because sometimes you can see things that nobody else can and that's valuable.

And the mutual thinking, the group powered fact-checking and the argumentation - all this is contributed to by all, and enjoyed by all.

ryanwaggoner5• 16 years ago

In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time.

I could have saved a lot of words by just saying this :)

kashif• 16 years ago

So you do more reading to do less reading. And if HN is showing you good stories consistently then you end up doing a lot more reading?

shadowsun74• 16 years ago

Apart from the liberal use of noprocras, I apply a few simple guidelines to everything I read on HN:

1) If the title contains 'X ways/steps/secrets to Y' I skip.

2) If the article is longer than 1500 words and appears interesting, I mark both article and comment thread as toread in my del.icio.us for reading at the end of the day.

3) If the article is linkbait, or is about a fad, I skip.

4) If the article is derivative and/or adds nothing new to the discussion (e.g.: Why you should have a co-founder), I (usually) skip.

Qz2• 16 years ago

For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically think about it

This strikes me as a tragedy.

shadowsun74• 16 years ago

Perhaps. But with HN you cover the more blatant loopholes and counter-arguments quickly, and can then think around these arguments to discern truth.

Not every article deserves critical thought. HN enables you to filter out the ones that do.

etherael2• 16 years ago

Only in the same sense that calculators are a tragedy, when the simple takes less effort, there is more effort left for the complex. The analogy of an externalised group brain is actually a pretty good one, and one may contribute to said brain as much as one benefits from it, to boot.

jacquesm• 16 years ago

> I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically think about it

And why wouldn't you? HN is perfectly capable of making arguments with incredible force in a very eloquent and hard to refute way. And be dead wrong anyway.

You can never abolish critical thinking, either about the original article (especially when criticism is based on un-sourced data) or about the comments themselves.

That doesn't save you time, it adds to the amount of data you have to do your critical thinking about.

ced2• 16 years ago

I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups. We're missing out on so many great people! It's awesome that we have knowledgeable comments on web page design and computer security, but where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists and gardeners? Presumably, they're turned off by the NoSQL debates and the Techcrunch drama.

This site is purportedly about "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."[1] Hopefully, we'll move closer to that ideal.

Otherwise, we might have to fork HN.

[1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

frossie• 16 years ago

where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists, or gardeners?

Err, we are here. You'd be wrong if you thought that everyone in HN is a startup person, or even a programmer.

However, this is hacker news hosted on ycombinator.com. There is a prevailing standard focused on startups and even though I am not one of those people (nor do I wish to be), I do my bit to fit in with the community standard.

It's like you are walking in a park and there's a bunch of people having an interesting conversation. You might ask to join in, but saying "why don't you people have an interesting conversation about clock mechanisms instead?" would be kinda rude.

Saying "I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups" strikes me as saying "I love the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra but I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on classical music".

[Later edits in light of comments below:]

The interesting question to ask is "why are the non-startup people here". I can only answer for myself: I came here to pick up interesting new sites (in that way I am a refugee from techcrunch - reading it felt too much like a lobotomy ). I stayed because of the quality of the discussion and because even though the startup folks sometimes seem to think they have a unique ecosystem, a lot of their issues are really common to software and even wider technical groups outside the commercial sector, like my own.

So no, from that point of view I wouldn't go to an HN fork - I just can't afford another time sink, and I would still need to be on HN for my tech news.

As for non-software stories, there are quite a lot of really interesting stories submitted, but they often don't gain enough traction for the home page. But there is a lot of really varied stuff in /new if you look.

ced2• 16 years ago

I love the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra but I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on classical music.

What's wrong with such a wish? It's not like I'm going to picket in front of YC's offices.

Regardless, would you be willing to move to a fork of HN?

jokermatt9992• 16 years ago

I agree that Hacker News shouldn't shift its focus. However, I also think the gp post has a good point that it would be nice to see a wider variety of topics (although I'd prefer it to be a separate community). Is there another Hacker News-like site that has the same quality of discussion?

Edit: fixed its.

aneth4• 16 years ago

Personally, this is where I come to find out what people obsessed with tech and start-ups are thinking about. I find most of the articles that are not directly related (that I click on anyway,) have some abstract tie-in to startup-land.

The worst thing that could happen to HN would be to lose that character. It would lose its value to its audience, followed quickly by its audience being replaced by one I care a lot less about.

DrJokepu• 16 years ago

I hope it stays like that. When I first came here, me starting up my own business one day was really just a dream. This site and the great community here made me realise that the only obstacle is the lack willingness to make that step. These days I'm absolutely obsessed with my start-up.

I really hope it's going to inspire many more people in the future, all these start-ups, each one individually on its own way, could really change how the next century will be like.

skowmunk2• 16 years ago

It wasn't the source of my inspiration to start, but sure has been a good source of motivation to keep at it. Coming across different people tackling their problems one way or the other, and sometimes sharing their experience, it has been a very positive and supportive experience.

mcantor• 16 years ago

My major gripe about Hacker News is that the time you make a post disproportionately affects its likelihood of making it to the front page.

ryanwaggoner5• 16 years ago

This seems true for all social media sites; use it to your advantage.

jokermatt9992• 16 years ago

That seems to be inherent in the social news set up. Is there any way to account for the time an article was submitted and keep the front page fresh?

philh• 16 years ago

Instead of measuring time directly, make a post's "age" for the purposes of ranking be a function of page views. (Or submissions, or something similar.)

I worry that it might be easier to game: refresh a lot of times before submitting to make everything else older. Submissions might work better in that regard, and there are probably other things you can do to mitigate the problem.

tokenadult• 16 years ago

Yes, I think HN is especially valuable for young people not yet set on a career path (who seem to make up the majority of the readership) in opening their eyes to possibilities of entrepreneurship that also engages intellectual curiosity. It works well for much older people like me in getting a reality check on current trends.

lelele3• 16 years ago

I like:

- community, of course;

- minimal design.

I dislike:

- only total score for comments (no up-votes vs down-votes);

- no folding;

- no tagging;

- no way to "watch" discussions or comments;

- "More" link at the bottom of each page expires (thus you have to start from front-page again, not nice if you read HN not that often);

- no way to join discussions whenever someone find duplicates;

- no contributions section (searchyc.com (which seems abandonware, btw), pages with best discussions by topic, etc.).

EDIT: I dislike HN not being able to format an item list.

chengmi2• 16 years ago

"Abandonware" may be a bit extreme. How would you change SearchYC?

lelele3• 16 years ago

More than one request has been made to get quoted strings in queries, which would be very useful, without any feedback from developers. The website is still there, however it seems the developer have dumped the code and forgot about it.

brlewis• 16 years ago

If you comment on the time-sink nature of HN you should at least mention the noprocrast option.

piramida• 16 years ago

Once I found and enabled anti-procrastination I find myself arriving at the "sorry" page 4-5 times per day, getting back to work instantly instead of wandering off on a knowledge hunt. Definitely one feature which makes HN the great site it is.

aneth4• 16 years ago

My greatest pet pieve on HN: The comment field is unusable on iOS, and the rating targets are too small with no undo. I find myself composing in a notes app and pasting.

(Only a problem because I like HN and spend a lot of time here recently.)

lotharbot3• 16 years ago

I continue to hope pg will modify the rating targets thusly:

  [up arrow] X points [down arrow] by name y hours ago...

I suspect this would greatly reduce the number of mis-votes.

skowmunk2• 16 years ago

HN has been a very good source of information and opinions on certain topics of interest to me.

Have come across some really awesome articles that were immediately applicable to my situation, some are absolute crap though.

The moderating mechanism has been a good source of constructive feedback for my communication skills, which are far from great. (still, long way to go)

Came across some great perspectives on some issues, as well as some crappy ones. Overall, I am glad I found it.

kennedywm• 16 years ago

I love that I can take a quick glimpse at the comments on an article before deciding whether it's worth spending the time reading.

diego_moita• 16 years ago

I wish he could be more detailed about the problems with HN. There is simply too much Wired magazine and/or Silicon Valley entrepreneur culture & group thinking around here and I think he didn't point it correctly.

Issues routinely bashed and ignored because they don't belong to this culture: anything Microsoft, global warming, market trends in the 3rd world & Europe, etc.

Irrelevant issues overly hyped just because they're loved by Silicon Valley "hipsters": the last time Steve Jobs went to the toilet, the newest irrelevant fad from Silicon Valley (Yelp, wtf?), libertarian-like conspiracy theories...

Some things I love about Hacker News (and a few I don’t)

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