Does this look familiar to anyone?

http://www.founderscoop.com/apply.php

by lurkage • 18 years ago

33 53 18 years ago

brett• 18 years ago

I would argue that if you're going to go the trouble of including a "Shout-outs" page, you should mention the company who's application you stole verbatim:

http://www.founderscoop.com/shout-outs.php

chengmi• 18 years ago

Brad Feld, whose blog appears on that page, also has a hand in TechStars (their application was copied from YC too).

wright8• 18 years ago

Anagrams for founders coop:

------------------------------------------

Unforced Oops

Dunces Of Poor

Poser Fund C.O.O.

reitzensteinm• 18 years ago

Does anyone else find this sickening? I'd be unable to plagarise in a professional setting even if I knew 100% that I wouldn't get caught. I'd feel way too slimy afterwards to even consider it. What ever happened to taking pride in your work?

Add in to that the absolute certainty of getting caught on the internet (hell, you can automate the process), I'm just amazed that people still do it. I just don't understand their thinking at all.

lux3• 18 years ago

These all seem so blatant at this point, but if the trend is moving towards early-stage/micro-investments like this, then most likely we'll be seeing lots more where this came from.

But when YC has all the cred which serves to give a nice profile boost to YC-funded startups, what can these others offer that amounts to the same thing? There's the community, experience and hookups with further funding opportunities, but these knock-offs just seem like they're lacking in comparison to the full value proposition YC offers. I wonder how they can compensate for that...

Raphael• 18 years ago

Local is a plus.

lux3• 18 years ago

Another thing is trust -- would you trust a knock-off to have that much experience and insight, when you can verify via PG's essays the insight they'll bring to the table? Hard sell if you ask me.

davidw2• 18 years ago

Supposing you 1) dont' want to live in the Bay Area, or 2) weren't accepted to YC, or have some other issue with YC, having some other options isn't bad, even if they're not as good as the original.

I don't get the need people seem to have to put these YC clones down. Yes, copying the application is lame (we'll see if the guy responds), but having more options is a good thing. If your idea (YC) is any good, people will try and replicate it, and that's what we're seeing here. The early-stage-seed whatever area is not some kind of network-effect amped winner-takes-all market where PG needs to grow things at an insane pace to grab market share. Far from it, he does well by his funded companies to dedicate his time to them, and not worry if people copy his idea.

lux3• 18 years ago

I'm not putting the idea itself down at all. In my other comment I saw the likelihood of these types of investment companies increasing since YC proved the concept viable. This one here was blatant plagiarism though, which make it look like they didn't put the time into starting it properly, which means they're not likely to put due diligence into the companies they investing in. Trust is a big factor in accepting someone's money in exchange for part of your creation, and that doesn't instill it. Looks like they did apologize now though (haven't read it yet).

Local is a definite plus, having to move to Boston or Cali can be a deal-breaker for some I'm sure. I'm waiting to hear when a Canadian equivalent pops up myself ;)

They also had one other interesting idea I haven't seen before, which is that they ask companies to put up 5% to a pool that's shared among all the startups from that funding round. They figure that will encourage more collaboration and help, since everyone wins a little when anyone in the group wins. That was in their FAQ. I wonder how that will turn out for people in practice.

chaostheory• 18 years ago

what I don't understand is that why these people don't even try just changing around the wording at least just by a little bit... are they that uncreative and lazy? or at least (as brett mentions) give credit where it's due

rokhayakebe• 18 years ago

becasue this is exactly what they intended to do. Have the entire YC community talk about it and cr8 some interest about their program. It seems to work.

gruseom2• 18 years ago

I once had a philosophy professor who liked being provocative. He was a sort of evangelical atheist. He gave a talk entitled, "Is Belief In God Immoral Or Merely Irrational?"

That (unethical or merely incompetent?) is the sort of interesting debate they've created about themselves.

webwright3• 18 years ago

Srsly? Do you really think that? Really stretches the definition of "all press is good press", don't you think?

aristus• 18 years ago

Calm down. This is precisely how industries standardize. No one thought it was "sickening" when search engines pages started to imitate each other's blue title + grey descr + green url design. It was just an obviously good idea.

wright8• 18 years ago

How does that feel, bitch?

brianlash• 18 years ago

There are plenty of me-too's borrowing from YC's model in an attempt to clone it. This company just happens to take the additional step of stealing from the YC application.

It's shady but it goes on. Be glad some light was shed on this particular misuse and skip these guys if you don't agree with their actions.

They won't hurt YC's brand and they won't injure the value of the YC companies. This type of thing -- whether an act of theft, laziness, or both -- only hurts the offender. Just looks at some of the other comments in this thread.

I'm with aristus... this isn't anything to get excited about.

technoguyrob• 18 years ago

I don't think anyone is opposed to the idea of YCombinator clones (I think it's wonderful).

Just the blatant plagiarism.

iamwil• 18 years ago

My first reaction was also, "hey plagiarism". But then again, on second thought, it'd be nice to have one application form to fill out, and then you just send them to different programs.

Before the days of standardized applications forms for colleges, it was a pain in the ass to fill out the same types of questions. I think it's rather lazy of them. However, since they're all going for startups, it's rather likely they'd ask a set of basic questions. It might do to have some sort of standarized basic set of questions, and then tack on one or two specific questions for that particular program.

randallsquared• 18 years ago

I think there's a lot to be said for standardization, as you say. Founders who are just getting started have little enough time as it is, without having to come up with just slightly different answers to just slightly different questions. If that's their reasoning, they probably should have mentioned it, though.

brfox5• 18 years ago

hey guys, chill out. Is the application the same as YC? (It is not currently posted on YC, so I don't know).

Other than the unattributed copying of the YC application... This seems like a totally different deal. He's not just giving a tiny bit of money to fresh college grads and making you move to San Jose for 3 months, it looks like it is going to be an actual co-op where each group accepted gets part of the pie from everyone else, and its not only limited to 10k. I live in Seattle and have 2 little kids, so I can't exactly do the YC thing, so I'm actually kind of fired up about this idea. I've read about the two founders of this group so it seems legit.

brfox5• 18 years ago

Well, since I didn't apply to YC, I didn't know the application... and the current app is gone from the YC site. But, here's a previous YC app: http://ycombinator.com/s7app.txt

It is a bit disturbing that he took everything exactly... even the parenthetic remarks which make him sound like PG.

But, other than that glaring trust-killer, it does seem pretty cool to have an alternative to YC, which is just not feasible for me.

wright8• 18 years ago

> It is a bit disturbing that he took everything exactly...

Still think they sound legit?

vegashacker• 18 years ago

Yeah, it's basically verbatim plagiarism. Check out, for example, http://web.archive.org/web/20060825161615/ycombinator.com/w7...

brfox5• 18 years ago

Here's their apology:

http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-pa...

wheels2• 18 years ago

Again, I don't understand the super-reactionary responses here every time that there's something based on YC. By the YC founders own assessments they can't accommodate all of the good ideas that they're receiving.

And what of this, "Well, they're going to suck..." Do you think YC was perfect right off of the bat? Really? Sure, the copy-cats will be rough at first, then they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and do their thing or die.

Or is the big objection that they copy-and-pasted the form? Other than very minor copyright infringement, which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked, it's obvious that they just went live. I can think of dumber ideas than copying your role-model as a place-holder until you have time to rewrite the form.

wright8• 18 years ago

It's not about copying the idea.

It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone else's writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.

> which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked,

"If you have to ask..."

> then they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and do their thing or die.

There's a YC copycat in India that differentiates itself by posting armed guards to keep you in your office until midnight. And not let you sleep. Seriously.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=158049

wheels2• 18 years ago

> It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone else's writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.

There's a famous line by Igor Stravinsky. "Good composers borrow. Great composers steal."

If you're working on something, and you see someone else that's got part of it righ, by all means copy them!

I don't mean plagiarize them, but emulate what they're doing and figure out the parts that you're good at. If you read through what this co-op is about there's some interesting stuff there. They're trying to get people in Seattle for a year, are offering more funding and trying to build integration between the companies they're investing in. This is a good thing. Ask them to reword their questions if you must, but cheer these people on! Comparing this the Indian proposal from a little while back is just silly.

allenbrunson• 18 years ago

the site has since been amended to indicate that it was a joke.

  http://www.ciieindia.org/?page_id=93

"We don't want you to go to your accommodation before 12 midnight - so we provide you mattresses near your workspace for resting. There's anyways a security guard outside your work-area - so you don't get to leave the office before 12 midnight and you don't get to sleep in the office. Attendance happens at 9:30 am every morning. Sundays are off if you have met your weekly goals!

"(The team has tried to be funny with having framed the above rules - obviously none of these rules are for real. It was a failed attempt to be humorous, which unfortunately not a lot of people understood :(. However, guys/gals with less than average IQ and humor - who fail to understand the humor in the above para may not kindly apply. Being fun-loving and sharp are pre-requisites!!)"

aneesh• 18 years ago

Actually, I don't think YC should mind. If they're not smart enough, or dedicated enough to think of a few due diligence questions on their own, would a really good startup want them on board as investors?

wright8• 18 years ago

I find it dubious not only for the massive plagiarism (even the word limit!) but in that they seem to lack the l33t skills needed to make an HTML form submission page.

I think having YC in your corner is a boost; these guys look like they'd HURT your chances. Why would you want people who are unoriginal and unscrupulous dragging you down?

trevelyan• 18 years ago

saves you from writing two application forms?

rms• 18 years ago

I think that was the idea Techstars had. Since they got away with it outside of this community, I can see why other new microseed funds want to keep using the same application.

smoody• 18 years ago

I know this is off-topic, but isn't asking for the applicants' ages illegal, as it can be used as a basis for discrimination? -- in the same way that asking if the applicants have children would probably be illegal.

dcurtis• 18 years ago

This isn't a housing application-- discrimination is completely legal.

In fact, the application is designed to discriminate against people who would be bad founders.

brlewis• 18 years ago

More relevant, this isn't a job application. Employers do have to avoid discrimination.

edw5193• 18 years ago

Look at how much you can learn about these people from this little bit of data:

1. They are creatively challenged.

2. They are professionally challenged.

3. They are ethically challenged.

Suppose you get involved with them. What do you imagine would happen as soon as a difficult situation came up?

Personally, this tells me just enough to run, not walk, the other way.

davidw2• 18 years ago

Well, if by "learn", you mean "extrapolate", "surmise", "conjecture" or "speculate". I don't think you can make such sweeping statements without knowing more.

edw5193• 18 years ago

They copied someone else's intellectual property without giving credit.

What data could anyone possibly add that would change my thinking?

webwright3• 18 years ago

FWIW, I know one of the guys and he's a decent fellow-- he's sharp and has several exits under his belt. He drives a Prius and loves his family. He's not the anti-christ (or even the anti-PG). He spun up Seattle OpenCoffee a year back (before this venture was a twinkle in his eye), just to help the Seattle startup community.

I think this is probably a case of then launching this before they even had a web site up and getting buried in random solicitations. They probably tossed that up there just to start getting coherent submissions.

gruseom2• 18 years ago

The hackers they'd like to attract all know about YC. Most probably knew about it long before they did. A good many probably have the YC application memorized. To make a verbatim knock-off and pretend you didn't is just so... inept. Certainly ineptitude is among the leading qualities I look for in an investor, how about you?

To anyone who knows the first thing about hackers, it's obvious how to do this: give full credit to YC, praise YC to the skies, point out that not everyone is suited to YC and argue that there's room for more than one. Differentiate yourself by being Seattle-focused or whatever.

okeumeni2• 18 years ago

YC is a great idea, Founder's co-op is the proof. Honesty dictates that they mention YC as their source of idea. This is another opportunity for startups to get seed and backing. Coaching may not be as YCs, but hey why not try, apply!!!!

brfox5• 18 years ago

Here's their apology:

http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-pa...

antoineg2• 18 years ago

Chris has responded to this issue on his blog: http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2008/04/sincere-apologies-to-pa.... Those of you throwing around uninformed, flaming commentary would benefit from a quick read followed by a few deep breaths.

webwright3• 18 years ago

He uses the phrase "modeled after", which is pretty light. They lifted most questions verbatim, removed the references to boston and News.YC (usernames, etc), and shuffled order on a question or two.

I'm a little iffy on whether I feel this is terribly unethical-- an application is not really a creative work. I do think it shows a lack of creativity! I can think of 2 or 3 questions that I'd add/adjust if I was spinning up an early stage outfit.

antoineg2• 18 years ago

I agree it was a lapse in judgement - both the lifting and the lack of attribution. However, in the grand scheme of things it's not that huge a deal, and the important thing for me is that he is correcting the problem right away as soon as possible after being informed of the criticism.

paulgb• 18 years ago

> 12. Why would your project be hard for someone else to duplicate?

Heh

okeumeni2• 18 years ago

We have built a search of their sites and blogs, whatever you want to know about Founder's co-op, just search for it here: http://www.intelliverb.com/Search/?ul=en-us&six=src63343...

Does this look familiar to anyone?

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