Ask HN: Telling my boss about a Headhunter

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15902196

17 25 9 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I work for a tech company in Taiwan. My boss is a good friend who I've known for 7 years.

On Sunday night, I got an email from an Engineering Director of a very famous company, asking if I want to meet them to talk about work.

My current job actually doesn't keep me busy enough, so I do many personal projects in addition to my corporate work. I know my skills could be used well at the Famous Company. I wrote back to tell the Famous Company about several personal projects I did that might interest them. They were pleased.

I also said that I want to tell my boss about the conversation. I just signed a contract for all of 2018, but I could ask my boss about doing some part-time work earlier on a contract basis.

The Famous Company says that it would be unusual to introduce my boss, I'll need to sign an NDA if I want to talk about actual projects, and they offered to have a video chat instead of meeting in real life.

I feel uncomfortable "flirting" with a Famous Company if I can't also tell my boss. If a pretty girl tries to seduce me, I will tell my girlfriend about the incident.

This also seems to be a cultural difference. See "Connections and contacts" in Yang Liu's photos.

http://bsix12.com/east-meets-west/

It would be a dream to work for the Famous Company. I know they'd pay at least 10x my current salary. But I want to be loyal and maintain good "關係" (guanxi) with my boss here, and money doesn't buy commitment.

If I tell my boss, he knows I'm under-utilised, and maybe he will want me to go to the Famous Company. But then the Famous Company will be angry because I told him. So then both of them don't want me.

If I reject the Famous Company, I might lose an amazing opportunity. I want to be friends and build 關係 with them too, because I will be available in 2019.

The only person I told about this whole thing is my girlfriend. (not even my parents yet).

Who should I tell, and what should I tell them?

eesmith2• 9 years ago

So hey, what would have happened if you hadn't responded right away on Sunday but waited until Monday, talked to your boss, and then replied to Famous Company?

They wouldn't have known. Their message didn't say "you are obligated to keep this secret". And even if it did, you have no such obligation.

If you want to make the seduction analog - which I don't think is the right one - then Famous Company flirted with you, you responded, and now they are using your response as blackmail to control what you do.

Why do you even need to tell Famous Company that you have talked with your boss?

I think you should say that you just signed a contract for all of 2018 so you need to talk with your boss to get an idea of what free time you have during the 2018 period before taking on other work.

They want to do things under NDA, so your argument might be that you want to figure out your availability before signing the NDA, to help limit needless information disclosure. (Eg, if they have a project which requires 6 months of work but you only have 3, then there's no reason for them to tell you about it.)

BTW, I'm a Westerner. Don't read all that much into those infographics. For example, stereotypical German punctuality ("the West" in those graphics) is not the same as stereotypical Latin punctuality.

In my experience it isn't uncommon for employees to use poaching attempts like this for negotiation power. That is, you could go to your current boss and say that Famous Company is looking to hire you, in hopes that your current boss would raise your pay or promote you. And if that happens, then go back to Famous Company to see if you can get an even higher offer.

This can be done in both good and bad ways. You should be aware that some people play this game, so bosses on either side might be sensitive either to you playing that game, or them thinking that that's what you are doing.

But I don't think that telling your current boss - who already lets you do some part-time work - that you have the opportunity to do more part-time work for Famous Company, is part of playing that game. That won't start until they ask for more time than you have to give them. And you don't know how much time that is unless you talk with your current boss.

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

My boss isn't punctual with his emails. My reply to Famous Company said that I just signed a contract for 2018, but they still wanted to meet during a business trip in January. I'm busy during working hours, obviously, but I'm confident that I can ask my boss and get permission to leave the office to go and meet them. I feel uncomfortable not telling my boss though, because he's a friend.

BTW, I grew up in Geneva and my parents are British, but I've had more work experience in Asia. Ironically, the person pursuing me is an Asian-American.

The Famous Company isn't trying to blackmail. They didn't actually say "NDA", they said "significant legal paperwork... protects both parties". I don't care about a promotion, I just want a stable job. I know that in 2019, my boss wants me to move on (he already told me). I want to make sure I do this honestly, maintaining friendship with my boss, instead of sneaking behind his back and slipping out of the office unannounced.

eesmith2• 9 years ago

My use of the term "blackmail" was related to them expressing possible negative consequences for you telling your boss about your conversation, and in the context of "seduction".

When they sent their first email, they had no idea of if you would immediately go to your boss/friend to discuss things. Only when you told them of the possibility did they want to control what you did.

It's best not to think of this as seduction, or in the context of a pretty girl flirting with you. It's a company looking to hire your services, when you already have obligations.

Tell your boss. Don't tell Famous Company. If Famous Company asks you if you talked with your boss, say "of course I did - I want to make sure that I could take time off to meet with you without disrupting things at work."

The only reasons I can think of for Famous Company to have you not talk with your boss are 1) they are poaching you so they can compete with your current company, and 2) they don't want your boss to offer a raise.

Yes, you say you don't care about a promotion. But they don't know who you are or what you want. It's to their benefit for someone like you to be left in the dark about what your options are.

chrisbennet• 9 years ago

Your situation/culture sounds so foreign to my American ears that I can’t give (good) advice and I would be cautious taking advice from other people with a very different culture from yours.

In the US, we aren’t contracted to a company and thus we can be let go, or leave, at any time. We tend to have little loyalty to a company because, with some exceptions, companies generally don’t offer us much loyalty. We also (in tech) tend to work for many companies in our careers. Early in our careers we discover that we are responsible for our own careers and frankly, I think a lot of us like this more independent arrangement.

For myself, I always found it easier to just give myself a raise by going to another company that valued me more (or was will to pay the market rate) than to work 20% longer hours just get a 3% raise for my efforts.

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

I agree that this is all about culture.

To make it even more interesting, the Famous Company (multinational) recently expanded their business by buying a local company, and I think that's why they're interested in hiring people who have experience working in both countries (me).

The name of the Famous Company would look amazing on a résumé, and it would be really exciting to work for them.

But I'm not motivated by money or fame. I need years of continuous relevant work experience to help with my visa applications.

I wish I can find a way for everyone to benefit, and maintain trust with all the people involved.

Spoom• 9 years ago

If Famous Company is a multinational, they can probably open doors to visas that would otherwise be unavailable anyway, like an L intracompany transfer.

codegeek• 9 years ago

"I agree that this is all about culture."

Not just about culture but also legal. In the US, most states have employment at-will which means employers can fire an employee anytime without any notice and vice versa. Of course, exceptions are there for things like discrimination but you still have to prove it. In the US, a lot of states do not require you to provide any benefit to your employees other than a salary if you are a small enough business.

In many parts of the world including Asia/Europe, employers cannot just fire someone (with exceptions in extreme circumstances like a crime) and employees cannot leave immediately either. 90 days advance notice is very common.

siamtheman5• 9 years ago

You have already talked too much, tell current boss goodbye, ask famous company when do you want me to start work . This is how life works, a real friend will tell you now is time to move up in the world. Siam

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

My boss is first and foremost a friend. After knowing him for several years, I started working for him.

I think it would be rude to hurt the friendship by just saying goodbye.

My boss thinks I can do better so he wants me to leave in 2019 anyway. I just don't want to go around interviewing before then, without telling my boss/friend.

ricksharp• 9 years ago

If he wants you to go do better, then he should be happy for you to go now when you have the opportunity.

I would tell him about it and I'm sure he will have a favorable response. Help him make a good transition and find someone to replace you.

Oh and it's non of the other company's business what you say between you and your friend. Don't tell them anything about it, it's not ok for them to even ask.

siamtheman5• 9 years ago

Well don't I look foolish, Now that you put it that way I think your boss won't mind that you are talking to Famous Company. Go to the meeting get a firm offer, then tell your friend/boss all about the offer and ask him what he thinks you should do. My guess is that he will be happy for you. I would be...

siamtheman5• 9 years ago

I think that maybe you have talked to much already. Meet with Famous Company and get a firm offer. Tell them of whatever notification period will be necessary to terminate your 2018 contract. The contract you signed will have the required amount (days) of notification needed before you quit. Your boss is not your friend, he may be friendly and a great guy, but unless you are married (almost in your case) to his daughter, this is work, a job. I know this because I was a Boss for many years, if I liked you then I would have said exactly the same thing as he did, you need to move on, because I can't pay you what you are worth. If you have been there seven years it's time to move up in the world anyway. Tell Boss how great it was working there with him and how you will miss working at the company. I say it this way because you seem to be young. It is difficult to tell when loyalty is due or when self-interest is the best move. Perhaps a better way of looking at this would be to think of this as more of a overdue promotion. So now is the time to go for the glory (and money). Also you will learn many new things, things that will help you later when you move even further up the latter. I read that most people have 3 - 7 jobs (full-time) in their lifetime, so you are right on course.

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

I'm 28 years old. I did a summer job for my boss's startup company in 2010, but then he invited me back to work for his other company in 2014. I've now been here for 3 years, the longest I stayed in any country.

You probably have a country, a home, a stable safety net where you can always go back to. I don't.

My hope is to get the qualifications for Permanent Resident status somewhere. The fastest is New Zealand, which needs only 2 years for the Skilled Migrant Category. But they also need 3 years continuous relevant work experience.

I finally have the work experience, but my girlfriend wants me to stay in Taiwan for one more year, and I want to be with her. I'm also really worried that when I choose to move on, if I burn my bridges, I won't be able to come back. I like my quiet stable life here, and I'm a little disappointed that my boss wants me to leave in 2019, even though I do agree that I should try to settle elsewhere.

Moving to the Famous Company would mean moving city as well, which would affect my relationship with my girlfriend. She's more important than my career.

siamtheman5• 9 years ago

Ah.. you left out a lot of important parameters on the initial query. You nailed me - I do enjoy all the privileges, home, wife, pay checks. My son is two years younger than you are, working on a masters computer engineer. So now the real important things appear, citizenship - girlfriend, Both are very important to you so these are now the determining factors for your decisions. 1. Forget Famous company, you can't live without the girl. 2. 2019 go to New Zealand and get your citizenship.(w/girl) This is what you want, right? so now this is the plan, every small and large decision you make should move you toward this outcome. Everything else is noise, twist it and turn it over if it can't be converted to your goal then discard it.

Veratyr• 9 years ago

You probably have a country, a home, a stable safety net where you can always go back to. I don't.

You say elsewhere:

BTW, I grew up in Geneva and my parents are British

Don't you have British citizenship by blood? Can't you go to the UK and get NHS and unemployment benefits?

muzani• 9 years ago

Asian millennial here.

I think you're stuck between two very difficult choices. I had to do a very similar choice before - continue working for a family friend or take the route with career growth. Usually people also feel some loyalty to an old boss because they were also a mentor.

But try not to just think about yourself and your boss. Or even your girlfriend. As this decision also affects your income, it could provide you and your family a better life.

Ask yourself: "Which choice would benefit society more?"

Which of the two choices would benefit more people overall? This is also a good way to estimate which would be more profitable or a better career.

The startup could have the potential to have a very big impact, or it could just remain a really small company that doesn't affect many. Similarly, the Famous Company might be affecting people all over the world, but how much impact would you really have in it? So I would just pick the utilitarian decision as the more moral one.

Your personal projects could also be another factor, as they could be beneficial to society. Which decision would let you work on them more?

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

I'm not yet at the point of a job offer from the Famous Company. It's just the question of meeting them privately, or telling my boss about it also.

The extra income would be nice, but money doesn't solve my citizenship issues. (unless they give me half a million to buy a passport).

Working for the Famous Company would use more of my skills to help a lot more people. I'm also quite confident that as the big multinational completes their acquisition of a local company, there will be cultural issues like this one, and they need people who are aware of both cultures. I could be very helpful to the Famous Company if I maintain my morals and teach colleagues there about them. Compromising my morals in order to get the interview seems like the route where everyone would lose.

My personal projects are things I can talk about freely in any interviews in future. I think the Famous Company would give me time to work on them, but also keep them as their own IP and not let me self-publish. I've tried publishing them here though (see my Show HN) and my biggest issue is marketing - something the Famous Company could help with.

I have another friend at the Famous Company, and I wonder if I should ask him how to proceed. So far I've only told my girlfriend, my mum, and this (anonymised) thread. I don't want to overthink it when I haven't been offered a job yet. But however I proceed, I want it to be with a clean conscience.

kelnos2• 9 years ago

The cultural differences between working where you are and for a western-style company can be significant, to be sure, and if you choose to pursue a job at a western company you're going to have to find some sort of compromise between the two.

I wouldn't worry too much about Famous Company not wanting you to talk to your current boss about it. Certainly you can't tell your current boss anything FC tells you that is confidential, but merely telling your current boss that you are talking to FC, and any non-confidential bits about the opportunity, is frankly none of their business. I can understand that FC doesn't want your current boss to be involved directly while you talk with FC (that's normal), but I doubt they care who you discuss your opportunities with (again, as long as you don't discuss any of FC's confidential information).

But I'm not sure any of that matters yet; from some of your replies in this post, I think it's pretty clear what you want to do. You want to be with your girlfriend, and that means staying where you are for at least the next year.

So, realistically, you couldn't accept an offer from Famous Company if they were to give you one in the next few weeks, and still do what seems to me is a higher priority to you.

I think it's fine to talk to Famous Company, but don't lead them on: be clear that you're not looking for new employment outside of your current city right now and that you may not be available for work until 2019. If they still want to talk to you, great. If not, I'm sure they'll be pleased that you were straight with them and didn't waste their time. A year from now, you might contact them and they may still be open to talking to you (they might even suggest this to you!). If your work impresses them now, I'm sure it will still impress them a year from now, and maybe more, as you gain more experience.

Regarding not burning bridges, that's a good instinct to have, and I think you have the right idea. Don't force yourself to act toward your existing connections in a way that makes you uncomfortable or makes you feel like it would make them uncomfortable, even if you think it's what a future company will expect. I'm not that much older than you (I'm 36), but I can attribute the majority of success in my life to the connections I've made and maintained over my professional career. Connections can always help lead you to new and better things. If a requirement for pursuing a new opportunity is that you have to treat your connections poorly, maybe it isn't such a great opportunity.

With that in mind, if you do decide you want to pursue something with FC now, absolutely feel free to talk to your current boss. From your description it does seem like he has your interests in mind, and you shouldn't keep things secret from him if you don't feel like that's the right thing to do. FC has no business in how you deal with your current employment; I don't see how they would get angry about you talking to your current boss about the opportunity with FC. You also have no obligation to tell FC that you've talked to your boss about it, at any rate. You shouldn't introduce your current boss to the people you talk to at FC, and your boss should not be involved with your discussions with FC. A western company would indeed find that very strange. But that doesn't keep you from talking to him about it privately.

Regardless of what you end up deciding, best of luck!

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

Regarding the "current city", there is a little flexibility. It's only 50 km to the nearest Famous Company branch in Tainan, like San Francisco to San José. I go there every week anyway to study Chinese.

I think I found a solution, though.

I'll email my boss first. But I won't tell him anything. Instead, I'll ask him a question!

"When should I start looking for jobs for 2019?"

That way I'm not breaching anybody's trust, but I still get an answer that can direct my practical actions. I'll also tell Famous Company whatever he replies. According to you and others, they shouldn't be angry by that. I'm probably overthinking, but I like how it's gone from being a dilemma to a cultural and moral lesson.

kelnos2• 9 years ago

Yeah, I'm wondering if there was a miscommunication between you and FC on that particular point: I cannot imagine a company caring at all who you are talking to about the fact that you're talking to them. You really don't need to tell FC anything about your conversations with your current boss.

vfulco• 9 years ago

US-centric perspective after 25 years on/off Wall Street often working ridiculous hours and now working for myself overseas for 2+ years. Be a mercenary, all the smarties and C-suiters (senior executives) do it. Companies in the US ask for their pound of flesh so be sure you are paid accordingly. Compensation schemes for elites in companies are heads I win huge, tails I lose and still walk away with a big pay package, enough to live on for years. So learn to play their game fast. Your loyalty is to provide for your family in the best manner possible and not kill yourself in the process. When downturns come due to the global economy, industry issues or company/strategic mis-steps, you can bet loyalty has zero value in the equation.

peterburkimsher9• 9 years ago

When inflation comes, the money that should last for years is spent within days.

Right now I'm still not married, so I have no obligation to provide for a family. When I do have a family though, then I want that to be a permanent commitment.

"Is cheating in a relationship always wrong?" is a question I asked several women during my single days, and I was very surprised that the answers I received were not all consistent. My opinion is strongly that it's wrong, so I could immediately know that I couldn't trust those women for a relationship.

Ask HN: Telling my boss about a Headhunter

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