Chatbot lets you print lawsuit forms for suing Equifax for up to $25k

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/11/16290730/equifax-chatbots-ai-joshua-browder-security-breach

by yegle • 9 years ago

165 54 9 years ago

theverge.com

ams6110• 9 years ago

Unless you can show $25,000 in damages, your lawsuit will go nowhere.

desireco42• 9 years ago

I was just pondering that.

300bps• 9 years ago

The rules in small claims court are pretty lenient in my state. Many times the magistrate isn't even an attorney and doesn't have a firm grasp of the law.

And if Equifax doesn't show up, you'll get a default judgment against them. Which doesn't mean you'll collect it but it would force Equifax to appeal to the court of common pleas.

I think this is more about killing Equifax through death from a thousand cuts. If 1% of the people impacted by this filed a small claims lawsuit, that's 1.43 million lawsuits against Equifax. What company could survive that?

ransom1538• 9 years ago

US Judges are pretty ruthless too, esp. in their own courtroom -- if they see this is just a spam law suite / mocking the courtroom I wouldn't be surprised to see people getting tossed into contempt. If they feel like the courts' time is being wasted they get really pissed. Don't mess with judges. [i][ii]

[i] http://www.gainesville.com/news/20170227/gainesville-man-get...

[ii] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssujwibxOlA

throwawayjava2• 9 years ago

I mean, it sounds like he was trying help intimidate already fidgety witnesses. That's not just wasting the court's time.

pooloo1• 9 years ago

Would it really be the people getting on the judges nerves or the corporation at fault?

jlgaddis2• 9 years ago

Even if a judge decided your lawsuit was completely frivolous, I'm pretty sure most would just throw it out -- not throw you in jail for contempt. Now, if you filed dozens of similar frivolous lawsuits in the same court...

patio11• 9 years ago

My argument would probably be willful non-compliance with FCRA requirements [+]. (I'm not planning on suing Equifax and if I were I wouldn't do it via a form letter, because that smacks of abuse of the legal process and judges will not be neutral about that.)

An action under the FCRA may be brought in "any other court of competent jurisdiction", carries statutory damages of $1k for willful non-compliance, and allows the judge to assess arbitrary punitive damages. Given that you're likely the only person talking and that you'll be describing systemic issues which affected 143 million Americans, I think you should just ask the judge for the max and see what he says.

HNers are, by the way, likely to be well-served by small claims courts, just by dint of education, organizational ability, and ability to perform professionalism.

[+] 15 U.S. Code § 1681e(a) -- "Identity and purposes of credit users" requires "very consumer reporting agency shall maintain reasonable procedures designed to avoid [unauthorized disclosure of information]" Your argument, informally because small claims court, would be "If your procedures allow you to disclose credit information on 143 million people, your procedures are per se unreasonable."

KGIII• 9 years ago

Given that they lobbied to avoid penalties for losses of privacy information, I wonder if one could also prove intent?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15212497

unclebucknasty2• 9 years ago

I wouldn't do it via a form letter, because that smacks of abuse of the legal process and judges will not be neutral about that

Which is a problem. If that form were legally sound and the case solid, then there shouldn't be an issue...but, you're correct that there might well be. The legal system is somewhat deficient for the ordinary citizen. Or maybe I should say that the other way around.

From a practical perspective, though, there's just no way to litigate 100MM+ individual cases, which is why this will be a class action that will be settled. Lawyers will win and claimaints will see very little per.

The thing is that the potential damages could, in theory, far exceed the total value of Equifax or their ability to remunerate. True justice, then could never be fully served. That brings up an interesting point about the outsized risk some companies represent, with very little attendant oversight or regulation.

In general we seem to be asleep at the wheel. Whether it's Russian hacking, recent revelations about powergrid infiltration, data breaches, or all manner of online and technology-based fraud, there seems to be a vast under-appreciation for the stakes. There's talk about it, but relatively little progress is being made.

RandomInteger43• 9 years ago

Not really. It says "up to $25,000" not "exactly $25,000" meaning you don't have to show $25,000 worth of damages if the damages are 1,000 and that's all you're suing for.

VonGuard• 9 years ago

Small claims court. If they don't show up, you win. They can't show up to all of the cases brought against them.

codingdave2• 9 years ago

They can't show up to all of the cases brought against them.

Sure they can. If a suit is filed for $25K, do you really think Equifax cannot do the math of what a default judgment would cost? If all their attorneys are busy, they would hire more. Even if it had to be expensive temporary help, they would hire someone to show up.

dadkins2• 9 years ago

What will likely happen, at least in California, is that the clerk will schedule all of the Equifax cases for the same day and the judge will hear them all at once, like a little miniature class action.

methodin• 9 years ago

Lawsuit DDOS?

artursapek• 9 years ago

A la church of scientology

RandomInteger43• 9 years ago

"Attorney Scott Nelson, from the advocacy organization Public Citizen, says he isn’t convinced a chatbot can successfully win a lawsuit."

Gee, I bet there isn't a conflict of interest in that statement.

TaylorAlexander• 9 years ago

It's also such a non-statement to say you're not convinced that some new unproven technology can do the thing it purports to do.

eli• 9 years ago

Public Citizen is not in it to protect lawyers jobs, if that's what you're implying. I suspect they know from significant experience that you can't win a lawsuit against a well funded corporation without a fight.

SwellJoe2• 9 years ago

They advocate for consumers, not lawyers, and they're a non-profit. Not sure what the conflict of interest there is.

unclebucknasty2• 9 years ago

Well, in theory, to the extent that people need lawyers but can't afford them, at least part of Public Citizen's existence is justified. So, for some, to say they need a lawyer is to say they need an organization like Public Citizen.

That's not at all a value judgement about Public Citizen or their statement. Just pointing out the potential conflict.

RandomInteger43• 9 years ago

Like that other person said, I was just pointing out a potential conflict in that statement.

The last thing anybody wants is for their profession to be automated away, so the conflict of interest is justified, but worth noting.

Also worth noting that you can still get paid if you work for a nonprofit.

Regardless, I think we could use a bit more automation in the legal field given how disproportionately distributed representation seems to be from my perspective as a relatively poor person.

RyanShook• 9 years ago

Can someone with a legal background explain if this is even worth trying without clear damages? I'm not interested in wasting breath to annoy Equifax.

fred_is_fred• 9 years ago

Because lawsuits aren't about proving you are right, it's more about having enough to get the other guy to settle.

blondie9x• 9 years ago

I live in LA. How can I go to a court in Sacramento?

ddoolin• 9 years ago

Drive, fly, walk, bike, etc. Them's the breaks, the superior court is in Sacramento. Same, I'm in OC.

tradersam• 9 years ago

I’m in O.C. too. We can road trip it.

labster• 9 years ago

Ventura here. Where is my high speed rail?

Normal rail's an option too but I've done the Coast Starlight and it took 12 hours to get here from Sactown.

mark2124• 9 years ago

No, there are actually five superior court locations in Orange County (Westminster, Brea, Costa Mesa, Santa Ana, and Orange -- but Orange is Family and Juvenile so it's really four if you want small claims). No need to go to Sacramento.

dadkins2• 9 years ago

In California small claims court, you can sue an out-of-state corporation in the county where you reside. It's one of the options on the form: where the plaintiff was injured. You don't have to go to Sacramento yourself, just serve the papers to their agent of service there. The clerk of court will even serve them by certified mail for you so you don't have to hire a process server.

thinkloop• 9 years ago

Incredible title. Story:

"state your name and address and it generates eight pages of lawsuit documentation in PDF form for you to print and file"

"Filing and winning a small claims case takes more than just filling in a form."

It's a story about a form.

imaginenore• 9 years ago

$25K is not a small claim in any of the states, is it?

mark2124• 9 years ago

Tennessee I believe. Limit is $10,000 in California.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/small-claims-suits-ho...

cobookman• 9 years ago

IANAL, do not take as legal advice.

When I looked into small claims court, in California. It was any claim <= 10k. You also needed to legally serve the defended with a non involved party.

That means for equifax, not being a california party, you gotta pay someone to send docs to their legal representation.

dforrestwilson• 9 years ago

Yeah I am filling in Kansas. Max is $4k here.

dang• 9 years ago

Ok, we added "print lawsuit forms" to the title above.

synicalx• 9 years ago

Australian here, looking forward to my $25,000.

mark2124• 9 years ago

Talk to your member of parliament and get a more consumer-friendly set of laws.

SubiculumCode• 9 years ago

What damages can one claim if one's ID was stolen in the Equifax breach, but havent yet been the subject of fraud?

yeukhon2• 9 years ago

I imagine anxiety and paranoia such as going through statements to ensure no unauthorized purchases, but that's only for credit card. Identity stolen is far more scary and will never be resolved in life time. Your social security number can be changed, but that doesn't guarantee free from all identity frauds.

I'd like lawyers to have inputs on this.

heartbreak2• 9 years ago

The tests for emotional distress are very stringint in every state. Have you seen a psychologist about your anxiety related to Equifax?

Chatbot lets you print lawsuit forms for suing Equifax for up to $25k

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