Show HN: Yue – A new library to create cross-platform GUI apps

by zcbenz • 9 years ago

104 100 9 years ago

zcbenz3• 9 years ago

Hi everyone, I have written a C++ library for creating native GUI apps, it also has language bindings for Lua and JavaScript (V8).

In the past I have written the Electron framework, which is a popular project for creating desktop apps with Chrome web engine and Node.js, while this library allows you to create native desktop apps.

If you want to see some screenshots and example code, check out the sample apps repo: https://github.com/yue/yue-sample-apps.

If you are wondering how this library is different from other GUI toolkits, check out the FAQ: https://github.com/yue/help#faq.

If you want to learn this library quickly, there is a detailed tutorial on using Yue with Node.js: http://libyue.com/docs/v0.2.0/js/guides/getting_started.html.

Vinnl• 9 years ago

Am I correct in my understanding that this does still use Electron? (And if so, what is it used for?)

zcbenz3• 9 years ago

It does not use electron, it is total native and does not use web engines, but it can be used in electron as a Node.js mudule.

zerr3• 9 years ago

Uses native widgets;
Uses windowless controls on Windows;

Don't these contradict each other? What do you mean under "windowless" and why it is important?

Btw, you can list particular advantages/comparison at least over top 3 popular C++ cross-platform UI toolkits: Qt, wxWidgets, Gtk+/Gtkmm.

mwcampbell3• 9 years ago

Those two statements do contradict each other. According to my own quick analysis, this library uses truly native controls on Mac and GTK+, but its own windowless implementations on Windows. The Windows control implementations use uxtheme so they look more or less native, but that's not "native controls" as far as I'm concerned.

jancsika• 9 years ago

In the past I have written the Electron framework, which is a popular project for creating desktop apps with Chrome web engine and Node.js, while this library allows you to create native desktop apps.

Are you the same developer Roger Wang wrote about in his "Statement on the history of node-webkit project" public post?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/nwjs-general/LIrC7zH...

He claims you misrepresented the scope of your work as an intern on the node-webkit project (now named nw.js), and that you removed copyright notices from code in Electron that was derived from node-webkit.

c0mpute• 9 years ago

Seems so - https://github.com/yue/yue/tree/master/docs/paid_plans

jasondemeuse• 9 years ago

Definitely, and those same claims are made in the yue docs.

I had been the solo developer of Electron and node-webkit (now known as NW.js) for a very long time, and today big corps are building their new apps on them. So I think it should not be hard to be confident about Yue.

https://github.com/yue/help

0x1Null• 9 years ago

" Furthermore, the Intel copyright notices were removed and were replaced by GitHub copyright notice in Electron when pieces of code was copied and derivative work was made from some code of node-webkit " ....

" I wouldn't like to spend time on this, but as the previous co-maintainer of node-webkit project, keeps spreading misinformation about his internship work in the node-webkit project on his blog post" ...

Why are you misrepresenting your work..

wruza• 9 years ago

If you are wondering how this library is different from other GUI toolkits, check out the FAQ

I see no details at all about how this library is different [or not]. While not an UI expert, I have some low-level experience with gtk, qt, appkit and uikit, vcl, immediate ui, and full manual drawing / event processing. When considering new ui framework, these questions are of high priority: how does it integrate with, or supports for, existing custom run loop; what layout system is used and which problems it elegantly solves (i18n, baselining, excessive boxing, complex constraint cases); how does it implement repeating cell rendering and caching, if any; what are base classes and how metamechanics like scrolling/resize/animation/state cues are distributed across these; how does ui state interact with controlling entity and vice versa; which non-ui mid-controllers exist to reduce or abstract out basic boilerplating. Without these details, it is yet another "throw edits, buttons and labels to fixed form and call it a day framework" at most. UI is usually hard because of internals and extension, not because it lacks fixed functionality. Web is partly so popular because it feels like everything is possible from the styled box primitive (but has its obvious downsides; like a 100mb complex c++ rendering engine that only few groups in the world can implement correctly and somewhat effectively on latest i7). Without all this and many more, there is nothing to reason about — ui is not a yesterday's demand, and regular cases are covered by virtually any mature library. Drawing static hearts with beziers is not a big deal.

Tbh, I'm highly doubting any of listed topics can be designed in just one version step, because even most decent frameworks have so many hidden flaws that require insane efforts to overcome under specific requirements.

It would be great to see how it is actually better, e.g. by comparing side-by-side examples of solving normal-to-hard ui tasks in different libraries.

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

Is that as amazing as I think it is? The Electron killer, the Holy Grail of UI frameworks, the El Dorado of cross-compatibility, the One Library to rule them all?

CuriousCosmic• 9 years ago

not really, especially considering it has the same author as electron

eivarv3• 9 years ago

Great job!

Maybe now we'll finally see accessible and efficient GUI apps from those who insist on writing desktop applications with JS.

majewsky• 9 years ago

accessible

Too bad it ignores accessibility entirely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219025

paultopia• 9 years ago

I'm sure this is an amazing project. But the readme and FAQ and such have such an aggressive, almost hostile tone---if you want to communicate with the author at all, even to report a bug, it'll be five thousand bucks a month...

zcbenz3• 9 years ago

Sorry for the unfriendly tone, some of them were written after reading some reddit comments...

And as explained in the FAQ, you can always go to the yue/help repo to report things and I will read them.

jameskegel• 9 years ago

No need to say sorry, it is clear, succinct, and reasonable. Most projects don't offer the option for premium support (which is also reasonably priced, fyi). I'm not sure what the comment above me is/was expecting.

bitcoinofficial2• 9 years ago

I don't get that either. Also look at https://github.com/yue/help. The author is basically saying "I'm a really cool developer, was there, did that, anything else?". Every single sentence consists of narcissism (or how should I call that?). This is only how I see that, I'm sorry if I offended somebody.

imron3• 9 years ago

The author is not a native speaker so might not be aware of how some sentences come across.

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

To me it seemed like he was showing that he was capable of doing a fine job with Yue in which you can trust.

imron3• 9 years ago

if you want to communicate with the author at all, even to report a bug, it'll be five thousand bucks a month...

That's not quite true - the other option is to provide a pull request with a test case showing the bug.

dragandj5• 9 years ago

What are you talking about?

The author literally says: "for help please go to the yue/help repo where users help themselves.

To report a bug, you have to create a pull request with a test case of your problem, or you can choose to subscribe to paid plans."

What's exactly hostile there?

The author gave you, the potential user, a gift, totally free of charge, and even explained politely where and how to find help. They even organized a premium support, if someone's problem is so important that it needs extra care.

I'm still puzzled...

rtpg• 9 years ago

The author is trying to sell a freemium product, its a gift insofar as Dropbox's 2 gigs are a gift. (EDIT: maybe the premium support is more to support this project than being the main objective. I don't mean to assume too much on motives)

Some small modifications to the text can make the messaging more friendly. For example "To report a bug, please create a pull request with a test case of your problem." (instead of "you have to")

It's a small change, but conveys the same requirements without conveying a notion that the reader is a burden. Instead it just asks a favor, since we're all humans talking to each other in good faith.

It seems small, it seems pedantic, but we're guided by our emotions. The fact that this thread exists is proof that it affected at least some people enough to comment about it

jasonkostempski• 9 years ago

Is the license similar to the React one?

Edit: Not trying to start a controversy or anything, I've never seen the Microsoft Reciprocal License before, it just looks like a similar idea. I'll just go look it up.

Zekio3• 9 years ago

5k per month for license O.o

https://github.com/yue/yue/tree/master/docs/paid_plans

jbergstroem• 9 years ago

...if you choose to modify the yue source code and not redistribute it.

dragandj5• 9 years ago

OTOH, the license is optional. You can use it for $0.

I'm not even a potential user of this library. I'm just amused with how people expect open source programmers to work for peanuts.

Zekio3• 9 years ago

I'm not expecting it to be free but 5000 usd for just for the right to not redistribute it when you modify the source, seems a bit expensive, but maybe I'm just a poor fella

imron3• 9 years ago

That's the expensive side of the dual licence. The other side of the dual licence is free.

eqtn• 9 years ago

This is an awesome dual license. I like it.

carussell4• 9 years ago

For comparison, if you choose not to go for the free, public distribution of SQLite, the commercial license and warranty for it is $6000.

mi100hael3• 9 years ago

Yeah but that's a top notch, mature, well known piece of software. This is a brand new, untested library put together by a one-man shop.

notheguyouthink• 9 years ago

Nifty! I look forward to (hopefully/eventually) someone making Go bindings for this :)

With that said, it would be nice if the sample apps included more components of the native UI. Eg, a bunch of buttons, text editors, etc - a sort of kitchen sink screenshot. Just to understand what it looks like on each OS. All the samples I saw so far seemed very limited, visually.

wheresvic1• 9 years ago

I read the help page but I'm still not sure how this is different from Electron then? Could you care to comment?

nautilus12• 9 years ago

Im very confused what is going on here. He works for electron full time but is releasing something else thats basically the same with more confusing terms?

eivarv3• 9 years ago

How is it basically the same?

As far as I understood Yue is a GUI toolkit that wraps the platforms' native widgets, whereas Electron is a Node runtime and a Chromium instance (which lets you build GUIs with web technology).

drinchev4• 9 years ago

Kudos for this. It does look awesome. Just tried out JS version.

Nevertheless I'm still afraid that features / maintenance will be unsustainable, since you are the only developer [1] ( considering your expertise ).

I hope there are companies that support the project.

1: https://github.com/yue/yue/graphs/contributors

fluxsauce• 9 years ago

By sending a pull request, you are agreeing to transfer the copyright of your code to Cheng Zhao.

Nope.

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

Don't send a Pull Request, then.

Cthulhu_• 9 years ago

Is there any open source project where the author retains copyright?

I mean in this case I'd say the copyright is transferred to a nameless entity, e.g. "the Yue project". IIRC any project with a developer agreement (like Google's) include a transferrence of copyright note.

juergbi• 9 years ago

E.g., Linux and GNOME

carussell4• 9 years ago

Is there any open source project where the author retains copyright?

Yes. Pretty much all the most successful FOSS projects operate like this by default—there's no central authority and contributors retain their copyright. It's only in the last couple years or so that a weirdly high amount of orgs even started cargo culting the CLA process. And the reason for the CLAs seems to be that this was happening for nascent, quasi-corporate projects from orgs who were making their foray into open source and were under the impression that this is just how everyone else was already doing things. Meanwhile, back in reality, the old standards and posterchildren for open source were actually humming along with no CLA in sight. (E.g., Linux, Mozilla.)

The CLA trend is waning, though, as people realize that they were never necessary, they only really only introduce friction to contribution process, and the only reason anyone ever adopted them was because they were looking around and trying to emulate each other. (You know the phenomenon where someone seems to be famous just for being famous?) Projects that came about during this time (e.g. NodeJS) have actually been getting rid of their CLAs.

EDIT:

IIRC any project with a developer agreement (like Google's) include a transferrence of copyright note.

This is not true wrt Google. Contributors retain their copyright. Where did you learn otherwise? Comments like this are how famous-for-being-famous happens.

detaro3• 9 years ago

While a CLA is necessary for a dual-licensed project, it doesn't have to include a transfer of copyright, and many don't. E.g. Google's doesn't, the one for Python doesn't. On the other side, the ones for MongoDB and the FSF do. (At least MongoDB's is also clever enough to have a fallback to pure licensing, since "transfer of copyright" isn't possible in some jurisdictions)

And of course there are tons of Open-Source projects that don't have CLAs at all.

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

I don't get why you're so attached to a PR you make to another library. So you're not contributing because you want to improve that other library, you're contributing because you want to sue them after so theycan pay you for your share of the project since you've added 10 lines of code?

nextlevelwizard• 9 years ago

I guess it is a combination of factors.

As stated else where it seems like author has copied/forked existing project. Then (if I understood the license correctly) you are required to open source your software if you were to use the library, or pay $5k. On top of that if you contribute to the project you sign away your copyright.

If these things are correct it seems like a one hot mess of a project.

irq-1• 9 years ago

From the FAQ, https://github.com/yue/help

But once you have done modifications to Yue's source code, all your code linked with Yue have to be open sourced with MS-RL. The only way to remove this limitation is to subscribe to Yue's paid plan.
The license seems like a non starter.
Note that the license of Yue has less restrictions than LGPL, it does not require you to open source your project when you statically link with Yue, or compile Yue's source code as part of your project.
So if you are fine with LGPL libraries, there is no reason to worry about Yue's license.
Yue is just another open source project with dual licenses, and it has less restrictions than most dual licenses projects.

With the LGPL you can change the code, compile and dynamically link without releasing your own code. It's a significant difference.

rhencke• 9 years ago

With Yue's license you can change the code, compile and dynamically link without releasing your own code.

There is no difference here.

Lest you doubt:

    Reciprocal Grants- For any file you distribute that contains code from the
    software (in source code or binary format), you must provide recipients the
    source code to that file along with a copy of this license, which license will
    govern that file. You may license other files that are entirely your own work
    and do not contain code from the software under any terms you choose.

detaro3• 9 years ago

The README on the other hand states:

The Yue project is under the Microsoft Reciprocal License (MS-RL) with following clarifications: [...]

Using a modified version of this software is considered as containing this software's code, so any code linked to it has to be licensed under MS-RL.

That at least to me reads like a different interpretation, which is worrysome.

ww520• 9 years ago

That's for modifying Yue's code, not your code.

pbnjay• 9 years ago

It'd be really helpful if there were screenshots of a sample app from each supported platform. Is this wrapping native elements or providing custom elements?

joemi• 9 years ago

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you've asked for is already there. Follow the "Sample Apps" link to here https://github.com/yue/yue-sample-apps and then click on one of the sample app directories and there are screenshots.

setzer22• 9 years ago

With a quick glance, I learnt about the intrincate details of the license. However, I have no idea of the technical details behind the library or how the relevant code may look like (note that I can go to the sample sources, but without a proper introduction it takes some work to follow).

I'd suggest putting more emphasis in the library details, and why it is good (not just how good it is) especially before all that licensing information.

_binder• 9 years ago

Right, So I am doing a research project and If I want to use this library in that project, does that mean I have to pay to use it. My project is currently closed source , because don't want anyone to steal stuff before I publish my paper. After that the code goes public.

iainmerrick• 9 years ago

Linking with the code of this software in any form is not considered as containing its code

As long as you don't make any changes, sounds like it's free and unrestricted.

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

No, you don't have to pay. You only have to pay if you modify Yue.

rkeene2• 9 years ago

If you modify "Yue", want to redistribute the modified "Yue", AND don't want to release your modifications to "Yue" in source form.

z3t4• 9 years ago

It would be nice with Android support, otherwise I see no real advantage over electron or nw.js or a web app.

eivarv3• 9 years ago

I'd say wrapping native widgets is an advantage in and of itself.

mwcampbell3• 9 years ago

Unfortunately, this library has no support for accessibility, e.g. for blind users with screen readers, particularly on Windows, where it implements its own windowless controls without implementing the UI Automation API. So I advise against using this library for any application with a broad target user base until this problem is addressed.

andrewmcwatters• 9 years ago

For being a library designed to assist with creating cross-platform GUIs, the website itself—which should give a good first impression of the project's attention to user interface details or user experience—is a joke.

Compounded with the other HNer's comments regarding its licensing, make your own judgments.

KayL• 9 years ago

I don't really like the name.

Vue Yue Vue Yue Yao Yue.

brodock• 9 years ago

Thank you for not doing that in JavaScript ️.

Jasper_4• 9 years ago

Hi,

You're using large parts of WebKit source code (LGPL) in your proprietary library. This is against the license. Please compare:

https://github.com/yue/yue/blob/master/nativeui/gfx/gtk/pain...

https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/...

drinchev4• 9 years ago

Wow, that's very bad.

Created an issue for this to prevent anyone else using it.

Let's see how the author will respond.

https://github.com/yue/help/issues/4

GuiA• 9 years ago

Your last sentence, "How would you respond to these?", is fairly passive-aggressive. Pointing out the issue (use of LGPL code with a license that does not permit it) is sufficient.

Doctor_Fegg• 9 years ago

That's LGPL, not GPL.

Jasper_4• 9 years ago

Oops, I misread the license header. Fixed. You still can't relicense LGPL as MS-PL, though.

aaron-lebo• 9 years ago

Is this guy just a bad citizen of the dev community?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219048

fiatjaf6• 9 years ago

I don't see that the author has clearly copied anything there. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. This situation only proves open-source licensing is in a bad shape.

Actually it is horrible. See, for example, the criticisms and questions being raised on the whole thread about this library.

(Until anyone point a better alternative, I'm for "if you don't want anyone using them, don't publish your sources".)

Jasper_4• 9 years ago

The comments, flow control and variable names are the exact same, and the comments at the top of the file have the same emails as the WebKit source code. If that's not a clear cut sign of plagarism, I don't know what is.

smegel• 9 years ago

You're using large parts of WebKit source code (LGPL) in your proprietary library. This is against the license.

What makes it proprietary?

Jasper_4• 9 years ago

For some reason I thought MS-RL wasn't an OSI-approved license, but it appears it is: https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical

Bad choice of words on my part, and I can't correct my comment anymore. That said, LGPL works still aren't compatible with MS-RL, so you can't distribute the combined work as MS-RL.

viach• 9 years ago

Does it have any relations to Vue.js or it's just co-branding trick?

ComodoHacker• 9 years ago

This looks much like Sciter[0], but without declarative CSS and built-in scripting.

0. https://sciter.com/

c-smile• 9 years ago

Sciter uses H/W accelerated graphics, on Windows for example it uses Direct2D/DirectX. And Yue uses GDI+ that is pure CPU based rasterization.

With modern high-DPI monitors, when number of pixels is 4...9 times larger than on old 96ppi monitors, non-GPU rendering is not an option anymore.

harisvs-code• 9 years ago

As a side note, I made an app with nodejs and vala without resorting to yue. https://github.com/harisvsulaiman/Pushy

Its a WIP

Show HN: Yue – A new library to create cross-platform GUI apps

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