Life inside the North Korean Bubble (with video)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8701959.stm

by mapleoin • 16 years ago

93 48 16 years ago

news.bbc.co.uk

ugh2• 16 years ago

I get the feeling that South Koreans are a lot less keen to be unified than West Germans were before the cold war ended, probably justifiably so.

There was at least some exchange between West and East, nothing like the complete isolation of North Korea. East Germans could just turn on their TV and watch some West German television when they wanted to compare systems. (Areas the West German TV signals couldn’t reach were called “Valleys of the Clueless” :) East Germany was also one of the most “progressive” eastern bloc states, supposed to be a showcase for actually existing socialism. And, as far as tyrannies go, one of the milder ones, while Kim Jong-il is all the way up there with Hitler and Stalin.

Then there is time: East Germany survived for forty years, North Korea is in its seventh decade. It survived the last twenty years without a cold war keeping it alive (except the one between North and South Korea, I guess).

The German unification cost billions and caused many problems. By no means an easy process that’s now, twenty years after it started, by no means completely finished. So I kind of can understand South Koreans who are weary of the prospect of unification. Unification did work out ok. I don’t know whether that would have been the case had East Germany been a lot more like North Korea.

lionhearted2• 16 years ago

I was in South Korea last month and there's a few different attitudes. There's a general sense that there should be one Korea at some point or other, though people disagree on the particulars based on what they focus on when they think about it.

Some people think the opportunities for manufacturing and development in North Korea are going to be great and are excited to have more Korean companies do their manufacturing in NK instead of China going forwards.

Many of the younger people are excited about the idea of no longer needing two years of mandatory military service, which is currently required mostly because of the North Korean threat (the older generation was more patriotic towards military service, the younger generation seems to see it as a bit more of a burden).

Some people are afraid of the ripple effect on the economy, in fact a lot of the Koreans I asked were aware of the West Germany/East Germany example you mentioned.

The general sentiment seems to be about 50/50 - half in favor of unification the sooner the better, half in favor of having North Korea as a separate state but with much friendlier and greater cooperation between them, and with a better government in the North. The older people seem more in favor of a short term unification, the younger people seem more disposed towards having North Korea be a separate state until they're ready to join back up.

Everyone - everyone in South Korea hates Kim Jong-il, and most people seem kind of embarassed and blush when you mention him.

patio113• 16 years ago

There's a general sense that there should be one Korea at some point or other

This is a quite popular opinion to express publicly, but I think the support for it is rather shallow. When push comes to shove, unifying Korea would have immediate economic impacts to South Koreans more severe than the United States swallowing Mexico.

(South Korea has 48 million people who have essentially Italian living standards. North Korea has 23 million people and is desperately poor. The day the border goes down every man under the age of thirty in North Korea would try to cross to South Korea, looking for any available job. That historically does not endear large immigration populations to their host nations.)

dpapathanasiou• 16 years ago

Everyone - everyone in South Korea hates Kim Jong-il, and most people seem kind of embarassed and blush when you mention him.

What about this, which came from B.R. Myers's book "The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters":

"Even in South Korea there are those who feel the Kim Jong-il regime, under which they themselves could not live for a single day, to be somehow more "authentically" Korean."

elblanco• 16 years ago

Most every South Korean wants reunification at some point. But the truth of it is that the current generation doesn't really think about North Korea much. Those that do cite the the German experiment as an example of a very cautionary tale about reunification.

This of course despite the fact that many older generation Koreans would feel compelled to have some kind of punishment for the "communists" (in quotes because the word is abused in South Korea by the older generation to the point of being meaningless) and their various crimes against the South. Of course this would further complicate reunification.

I think beyond just hearing what South Koreans say, look at what they do. The Kaesong Industrial Area is cited in the South as a way to try and drag at least some portion of the North's populace into the 21st century. Because if reunification of any type did happen, the consensus is that they are virtually without any useful skill to the South. Ultimately, reunification means that the Northerners will have to become productive, job holding, members of society. All of the BS they spend time drilling on in school, like the great works of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung Il and learning how to perform in mass games and create propaganda ballets about dam construction, are absolutely meaningless in a modern industrialized world. If the two Koreas reunified tomorrow, they would have to figure out what to do with 20 million unskilled laborers.

The bright side is that the pragmatists see this as a way of perpetuating the cheap labor pool requirements for an export driven economy. South Korea has started bringing in labor from places like Indonesia, Nepal, Vietnam, etc. because they can use these laborers on low waged manufacturing jobs. If 20 million North Koreans suddenly became available, it would greatly simplify things (in theory) for the manufacturing chaebols in the South. They'd simply bus in Northerners at $10-20/day to build TVs and Ships and Construction equipment and all the other odds and ends that South Korea needs to produce to stay wealthy. Kaesong is supposed to be laying the ground work for that eventual day.

I think likely, if the regime collapsed in the North, they'd move to keep the two countries in place, but with very close economic ties, (perhaps like the U.S. and Canada, with a lax border) for at least a couple generations and use the North as a cheap labor pool and industrial center very similar to how many countries use China. Once the standard of living increased in the North to the point that the South could reasonably absorb the North, and/or the Northerners were demanding wages too high to keep the export model afloat, they'd probably reunify.

ugh2• 16 years ago

“I think likely, if the regime collapsed in the North, they'd move to keep the two countries in place, but with very close economic ties, (perhaps like the U.S. and Canada, with a lax border) for at least a couple generations …”

That’s exactly what some people in West Germany and also East Germany proposed after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It ultimately didn’t happen but that was a real debate.

cglee• 16 years ago

There are a lot of S. Koreans in the world who could answer this question more definitely: http://www.google.com/search?q=do+south+koreans+want+unifica...

MarkBook4• 16 years ago

Having the benefit of hindsight in looking at outside interventions elsewhere (Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc ) I think that maybe the best thing would be for all other countries (including China) to stop interfering in North korea. It's not possible of course

lionhearted2• 16 years ago

I agree in theory, but I'm reminded of a quote by Trotsky - "You might not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

North Korea is on China's borders, thousands of people each month sneak into China from North Korea, and their crazopathic government is next door to China no matter what. I think China being very mildly pro-NK is a case of "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." North Korea is probably the biggest potential threat to China if relations were to break down between them.

MarkBook4• 16 years ago

This is something that always puzzles me. How come it's accepted as a given that countries cannot seal their borders. The Soviet Bloc were pretty good at it

EDIT also the border between north and south korea is pretty tight

swombat• 16 years ago

Forget about war. How about food?

The documentary mentions that North Korea survives thanks to food from the World Food Programme. Cut all imports, and I wonder how long the régime would last when even the army starts starving to death.

Of course, it's possible millions of people would die in the process.

DrJokepu2• 16 years ago

I agree, this is something Koreans (both North and South) will have to fight for themselves (only "fighting" metaphorically hopefully). Korea has a history of being oppressed by various other nations and the official ideology of North Korea ("Juche") is basically, amongst other things, saying "f*ck you" to the rest of the world. People are actually serious about it, it's not just some propaganda. Clearly, in a situation like this, foreign intervention is possibly not the best way forward.

VMG• 16 years ago

What about Germany and Kosovo?

cubicle67• 16 years ago

I recommend the British documentary A State of Mind http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456012/ as another rare insight into North korean life.

It covers about a year in the life of a family who have two young girls training in preparation for the Mass Games. Utterly compelling and handles a very difficult subject matter with sensitivity and without passing judgement.

orlandu63• 16 years ago

Netflix also has this documentary available for on-demand streaming.

jlcgull• 16 years ago

doubleplusgood!

starnix17• 16 years ago

If you want to see more of North Korea from the inside (and from a tourist perspective), I highly recommend the Vice Guide to North Korea: http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-14

vinhboy• 16 years ago

Anyone know why NK keep letting these videos get made, even though it makes them look like total douche bags? Do they really believe something good would come out of it?

rmc2• 16 years ago

Allowing forgein visitors is one of their main ways of getting hard forgein currency, that they can then use for trade.

InclinedPlane2• 16 years ago

I doubt that's anywhere near as significant as the hard foreign currency they get via arms (and technology) trade (a circa $100 mil/year business at least).

zokier• 16 years ago

Everyone already knows that they are "total douche bags", so allowing these videos does little harm. But by allowing these videos NK can show that they are opening up and being progressive etc. which helps foreign relations.

"Look, we are the good guys, we have changed. We even allowed that one video."

callahad• 16 years ago

The list of search results displayed from the DPRK's search engine was interesting. The query "handbook" brought up quite a few hits on IBM's Websphere Application Server, and even a guide on deploying UMTS towers. Does anyone have more information on how the country's network access works?

Edit: Some discussion over at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1426919

mikecane• 16 years ago

I looked at the BBC video embedded there. I noticed the DELL logos. It makes me wonder how the DELL logo is explained to the students who encounter it. Are they told DELL is a Korean company? Do they wonder why they don't see that hardware elsewhere?

w1ntermute2• 16 years ago

Yeah, I'm surprised the logos aren't removed from the computers.

Bjoern• 16 years ago

Ah this again, I call dupe. We had this 8 days ago.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1406757 (more interesting discussion there)

mkramlich2• 16 years ago

I hold that the existence of North Korea, and it's conditions, makes a mockery of the United Nations. How can the world community of nations allow a country like that to exist and treat it's people like that? Why do supposedly "good" and civilized nations allow that to continue? Yes it might require military action to end it. But perhaps it would be worth it in order to reduce the suffering of 20+ million people.

gfodor• 16 years ago

This is a highly simplistic analysis, if for no other reason that any attempt to use force to rectify the situation will result in the needless death of likely thousands of innocent South Koreans.

mkramlich2• 16 years ago

... as opposed to the millions who have probably died under North Korean misrule, and the thousands or millions more who will likely also die in the future due to it?

I disagree it's a simplistic analysis, and I even disagree that a "simple" analysis is inherently bad. But I think we both agree that people dying is a bad thing.

narrator• 16 years ago

This is a preview of the future without oil. The North Koreans lost all their oil subsidies from the Soviets in the early 90s. That's why they had the famines in the 90s, nobody drives cars and why there are no tractors.

Life inside the North Korean Bubble (with video)

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