Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

http://www.tofugu.com/japan/japanese-education/

by snailletters • 9 years ago

89 44 9 years ago

ue_2• 9 years ago

how attachment reduces stress

Although I'm in the process of reading the article, the title was quite striking to me - the Buddha said almost exactly the opposite - that it is attachment which is the cause of stress, clinging to changing phenomena, hoping they were permanent, or even without realising at the emotional level that they will fade.

kahrkunne• 9 years ago

The stoics said similar things

Jtsummers3• 9 years ago

Reading this article now, but this is about attachment to another person through relationships. I haven't studied Buddhism (or Stoicism from my sibling comment) in great detail. My question is, how does the detachment taught or encouraged by these philosophies deal with relationships? My understanding of it (very, very superficial, I know) was more about detachment from things, not from people. I'd like to be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

chillacy• 9 years ago

From what I've read, attachment to another person is just as bad (think unrequited love, or even a co-dependent relationship). The thought goes that you essentially give the other person power over your happiness, so it's bad for you.

It's also not good for the other person either. For instance a scenario where your girlfriend may want to go to culinary school which is best for her, but if placed all your happiness in her, then you may be tempted to sabotage her attempts to follow her dreams (to varying degrees), so that she may stay with you.

These are at least the thoughts of an interesting fellow who was a jesuit who later embraced buddhism and was found to be "incompatible with the catholic faith", so you know it must be pretty good stuff: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/54195.Anthony_de_Mel...

ue_2• 9 years ago

It's less about detachment than it is about non-attachment; it's the same for physical objects and even mental phenomena as it is for people - attachment to these things causes suffering in the same way, when the inevitable time comes that they pass and fade, their qualities change, your life moves on.

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

Dukkha is the word used by the Buddha to describe stressfulness, unsatisfactoriness, suffering, anguish etc., i.e that pain which is emotional; his position is that these arise from our desire to be stable, and from that desire acting upon it, to try and slow the tides of change. At least, that is my understanding.

But non-attachment to people need not mean that one stops feeling compassion for them, nor does it mean that one has to break up with one's friends. It's more about being mindful of the kind of relationships you have, and how they affect you. For example, one of the Buddha's prescribed techniques is to meditate on the theme of death, that one's body will eventually die, to visualise each process of birth, aging, sickness, death, one's decomposing body, the bones left over, those bones themselves yellowing and decomposing.

But here we have even the most important of all - detachment from one's own body. I don't mean this in a kind of "outer body experience" way. It's not that one stops caring, it's that one understands on an emotional level that things pass; it's not enough to understand this on an intellectual level. This kind of base understanding within us, acheived through meditation, is referred to as nibbana/awakening/enlightenment.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — thus nourished, thus sustained — would burn for a long, long time. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena, craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

chongli• 9 years ago

It's a misunderstanding of Buddhism to simply run away from all sources of suffering. Suffering must first be acknowledged, then accepted, then transcended. The best things in life take a LOT of suffering to get to. Think about running a marathon. Why do so many people want to do that? It must be worth it for them to suffer so much for it.

Buddhism has a lot in common with Epicureanism. This is the idea that "pleasure" is the greatest good. Epicurus's idea is that pleasure comes from a modest, curious, ascetic lifestyle. That long-term goals are much better than short-term ones.

jasode3• 9 years ago

These are things like persistence, self-control, curiosity, conscientiousness, grit, and self-confidence (there are a lot more, too).

Side note... The author repeatedly mentioning "grit" and "self-control" seems to be citing (maybe subconsciously) Angela Duckworth's research[1]. As an fyi, there has been criticism of her study:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/05/25/479172868/angela-d...

If Duckworth's research is flawed (e.g. IQ is still the #1 statistical correlation we have of a measured trait and economic outcomes), it means the blog author's paragraph is wrong:

Most people think that IQ, the ability to memorize, etc., are the key metrics for determining the future of a child. These are what economists call "cognitive skills" and it turns out they are not very good predictors of future success. What are good predictors are what's known as "non-cognitive skills." These are things like persistence, self-control, curiosity, conscientiousness, grit, and self-confidence (there are a lot more, too).

[1] book: https://www.amazon.com/Grit-Passion-Perseverance-Angela-Duck...

other writings: https://www.macfound.org/fellows/889/

Spooky232• 9 years ago

IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. There have been twin studies where reading skills, including early childhood reading skills accounted for a lot of perceived IQ differences.

Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. We attribute many things to genetics that are outgrowths of a child's home environment. Parents stuck in cycles of inattentive or abusive family situations, over-reliance on shitty daycare vs. early childhood education, etc make a huge impact.

jasode3• 9 years ago

IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important.

Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously, Koichi's paragraph is false.

This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragraph with a critical eye.

jansho3• 9 years ago

Really good article.

It's interesting that right now, we're trying to make learning easier. Gamification, bite-sized lengths, multi-sensory ... they all have merits but no one in edtech is talking about instilling a habit of grit. Not all knowledge is presented in a silver dish !

And not to be Luddite but technology has made us more detached [1], so emulating the Japanese amae will also not be easy.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39666863

dkarl2• 9 years ago

Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention?

I don't know if "independence" and "toughness" capture what the author wants to talk about. There are cultures built around machismo in which male children are coddled and doted on by their mothers, where it is normal to be a "momma's boy" at home and a swaggering macho in the street. It's also possible to believe in the ideals of equality and interdependence in society at large while having zero emotional intimacy in the home.

That said, it's interesting that Japan has language for talking about this aspect of relationships. To me, it suggests a higher degree of uniformity in attachment styles compared to the United States, where talking about these kinds of relationships feels like a new social development associated with a progressive mentality. I think that historically in the United States, actual behavior at home has been all over the map. Different kids in the same classroom, with the same skin color, accent, and social class, are raised with dramatically different family relationships, often without realizing it until they are much older.

jansho3• 9 years ago

It's also possible to believe in the ideals of equality and interdependence in society at large while having zero emotional intimacy in the home.

It's possible but may be harder. Home is like your base camp; you can have a crappy time in the outside world but home is the ultimate fallback and sanctuary. At least that's the ideal scenario. There's no doubt that growing up in a home that is broken or lacking warmth will affect you, and many studies have shown that. Take one: apparently if your parents are divorced, then the chance of your own divorcing will be higher [1], not to mention the other psychological impacts. Now imagine that divorce is normal - actually it is now - what impact does this have on society overall? It will be harder to measure, but it is real, just like those Japanese parents who raise their kids with love ultimately cultivates them into caring (amae context) people.

[1] https://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/11/09/is-my-marr...

dkarl2• 9 years ago

Sorry, my original statement wasn't clear. What I meant to say is that it's possible to grow up in a household where equality and interdependence are embraced as social ideals, but there is no emotional intimacy between members of the family, and children are discouraged from relying on others emotionally.

microcolonel2• 9 years ago

Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? Self control, willpower, and the ability to pay attention are all non-cognitive skills. If "attachment" and "dependency" are the things that develop a child's non-cognitive skills… could this be why more boys have ADHD than girls?

No, please read some research, please, for the love of god please stop, no. This conjecture is thoroughly questionable, there is copious research to show these traits developing essentially from birth. The same behavioural differences exist in effectively the same way cross-culturally (including in Japan).

There's more to it, schools in japan place a lot of responsibility on the kids. They are responsible for maintenance of the school (the non-dangerous kind), and later somewhat responsible for governing aspects of the school, among other things.

I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation.

sdflkd4• 9 years ago

I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation.

I mean we had mandatory volunteer hours? But in general, yes, school is just a day-care and nothing more.

ferongr2• 9 years ago

mandatory volunteer

Is it volunteering if it's mandatory?

rdtsc2• 9 years ago

This resonates a bit with me. The relationship with my mother defined who I am, things like my work ethic, perseverance and so on came from her. She sacrificed her career giving up being printer to work a as a janitor, delivering mail, a security guard just to make sure she was home when I came back from school. Saved money for quite a while out of the little we had to buy me a computer I've been wanted. If it wasn't for that I would been where I am now. Most of all it was just about knowing no matter how hard things got I knew I could always come home and she'd be there. She cared about my grades, asked questions about school. She rarely yelled or forced me to learn, but I could see she was disappointed a bit if she saw I didn't try hard enough. A bit of that desire to see me succeed came from her experience of being force to abandon school after 7 grades and having to look after her siblings. Then having to watch them get advanced degrees and good jobs while she was left mopping floors and washing toilets.

throwawayi432242• 9 years ago

That should've taken quite a bit of courage. Where did you grow up, if you don't mind me asking ?

rdtsc2• 9 years ago

In the Soviet Union as it was falling apart.

panglott• 9 years ago

'The word amae comes from the word amaeru, which, according to Japanese psychoanalyst Takeo Doi (he's the guy who basically made this term a thing), can be defined as "to wish to be loved." On top of this, it has connotations of a need for dependency and a request for indulgence of one's perceived needs. This amae type of relationship is the ideal for all close relationships in Japan. It starts with child and mother, but expands out to student and teacher, student and upperclassmen, salaryman and boss, husband and wife, etc. It's the senpai-kohai relationship in a nutshell. If everyone is able to indulge their needs into everyone else then everything will work out, or so Japanese society has been saying for quite a while now."

I've seen a number of Japanophiles quite taken with this idea of amae, popularized by psychoanalyst Takeo Doi in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence

To me it sounds like a bunch of Freudian psychobabble or pseudoscience.

The author doesn't even really attempt to empiricially link Japanese amae and non-cognitive skills (persistence, self-control, curiosity, conscientiousness, grit, and self-confidence) in the specific case of Japan—where children should do better on the the Marshmallow Test, if this is accurate.

Tofugu has some great essays on learning Japanese, but this is not one.

snailletters• 9 years ago

To be critical is to be thinking, but I read this article more as a concept and take the emotional responses that it seems to elicit as a stronger guage of the idea than its factual evidence.

jansho3• 9 years ago

It might not be just psychobabble though. Amae may seem loosely connected to those non-cognitive skills, but if the author's right about it being widespread and so deeply embedded in society that it's applied everywhere, then I think it's a reasonable assumption that it does contribute to certain cultural traits, like grit. The author does need to cite studies showing the relationship between empathy/happy childhood and IQ/EQ though. Still, I thought that his opinion and what-ifs interesting.

bykovich• 9 years ago

lol do you call any attempt at a useful psychology "Freudian psychobabble"

phkahler• 9 years ago

I'm still not sure these Asian students make "better" engineers and such. They end up in more prestigious positions due to hiring practices that make it so. But then we see things like the critique of the Toyota software in the sudden acceleration investigation... While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech. We want to be more like them, while they want to be more like us.

Jtsummers3• 9 years ago

I wouldn't look at quality of tech from one (hardware) company and use that as a judgement on an entire continent.

My personal view on the Toyota software problem is that Toyota has the same problem as every American hardware company I've interacted with that went into software. Software was a necessary evil and outside their wheelhouse. Many of them succeed at software despite themselves until something comes up that forces them to reexamine what they're doing.

Chris2048• 9 years ago

While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech

This could have helped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6331897.stm

and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

I can't find it now, but I believed at some point the US held a high percentage of world sci/eng labour. And it's a lot easier to expand hi-tech economy than create it from scratch.

stevenwoo• 9 years ago

I don't think one anecdote is a good way to judge an entire nation. On the other side of the coin I can come back with the anecdote that I have worked with some excellent Japanese programmers in the North American branch of a Japanese company, they came over on a type of internal company exchange program. They would have fit in at any high tech company. Of course, only the most exceptional ones would have been eligible to come over here.

resoluteteeth• 9 years ago

The main argument made by this article appears to be following:

* Japanese students students score higher because of the high-stakes college entrance exam system. However, this creates more stress. Japanese students are able to deal with this stress because of closeness with their mothers.

The article mentions studies on young children, but this does not seem particularly relevant because children would not yet be experiencing the stress created by the entrance exam system at this point, unless the argument is that the way children are raised in early childhood leaves them better able to deal with stress for the rest of their life, but I'm not sure there is evidence that Japanese people are better able to deal with stress than Americans in general.

Even if we assume that there is a difference parental involvement that makes them better able to handle stress than children in the US, it seems like a surprising leap to attribute this to this notional Japanese principle of "amae" without even mentioning the fact that the percentage of working mothers in the US is almost double what it is in Japan.

gcr• 9 years ago

Great article!

Important nitpick: Dr. Mary Ainsworth (the professor who wrote about attachment theory) is female. The article incorrectly assumes the professor was a "he."

unabst2• 9 years ago

The part about amae is a bit off. I would go a step further than translating it just as "to wish to be loved." That's still normal even in western culture. Amae is closer to "nagging to be pet over the head while doing a cute face" or "whining" and "talking in a high pitch voice on purpose to sound cute so that you can get what you want".

"Amaeruna!" is heard often and for good reason. It means stop acting like a child and grow the F up. There is also "Amaesugi" (too much) and "Amaenbou" (someone who does too much) which are not positive terms. Then there is "Mazakon" which is short for mother complex. It's an insult, not a compliment, and it's directed towards male adults.

So you see, Japanese are both aware and critical of their amae tendencies.

this amae… it's what keeps Japanese society together. It's the root cause of the successes you see in the Japanese education system.

Nah. I would stop at discipline, order, and obedience. Amae is still very personal, and is not any glue that builds businesses or communities, let alone the culture. Where it is seen exported the most is in Anime culture, not Sony or Toyota or Uniqlo or Rakuten.

Also, the part about "rat babies with a strong attachment to their mothers" can also be interpreted as "rat mothers with a strong attachment to their babies". Amae is not the opposite of neglect, nor a cure for it. The word for a parent's apparent over-attachment is "Oyabaka". You don't want to be too much of that either.

I was raised by a single mother. I had a lot of alone time, which I enjoyed very much. But I was never neglected. When I was little, I was an amaenbou. But I did well in school because I had good studying habits, and my mother paid attention to how I did and how I did it. I had a stress free childhood, did well in school, and did not need amae to counteract my stress. None of my friends were stressed out either. Being a kid in Japan is fun. I'd say junior high that's the worst with Ijime at it's peak.

throwawayi432242• 9 years ago

Reminds me of,

https://medium.com/@patricksherriff/how-to-write-about-japan...

Noos• 9 years ago

Hard to reconcile this with the existence of the kyouiku mama, the education mother. I also wonder if this also isn't ignoring all the students who don't do cram schools and who aren't salarymen capable, which is a lot of japan. Sometimes there's too much focus on the elite.

dlwdlw• 9 years ago

I'm rather wary of culturally based strengths. They DO exist. For example, being a good students is like being a star quarterback in the US. There simply isn't a way for US culture to have better academic performance with just this one cultural difference.

I'm wary because I think culture as a whole exists only to stabilize social stratification. Under normal circumstances layers will naturally mix, but if the mobility channels are clearly specified, you have order. In the US this is the mythos if hard work, in many Asian cultures there are establish systems based around tests. Indian and European systems had no mobility, being caste and nobility based.

Hard layers eventually lead to revolt, but soft layers didn't cordone wealth. Soft layers with prescribed channels are more stable.

So the existing channels are actually purposely inefficient and mostly stupid.

Entrepreneuship for example used to be forced. It was what you must do when given too much freedom. It was freedom in the sense of far too much, being ostracized in the desert.

Technology though provides the tools to survive in excess freedom. The desert can become a plain, once you have your endless water supply and teleporter that is.

The side effect is that these tools eat culture. It doesn't destroy the bike, but invents the car. Culture becomes a weekend thing.

Cultural praising often reminds me of hipster-ish praising of things like traditional razors and single gear fixies. People going backwards while claiming to be going forwards.

throwaway89343• 9 years ago

Does it really succeed though ? There is a hilariously cynical account of Japan here,

http://japaneseruleof7.com/are-japanese-people-retarded/

Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

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