Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/03/brexits-tech-brain-drain-may-have-already-begun/

by jesslynnrose • 9 years ago

118 145 9 years ago

gizmodo.co.uk

paulajohnson• 9 years ago

The drain in brains goes mainly west in planes.

akie• 9 years ago

Actually, the people mentioned in the article are mainly going east or south.

Tepix• 9 years ago

Not with Trump looming in the west.

ben_w4• 9 years ago

I considered Silicon Valley until I realised how different UK and US politics are. Extreme right wing in the UK is a bit to the left of Obama.

If the EU does collapse, I'll consider Canada.

kalekold• 9 years ago

The loss of a handful of technologists might not feel immediately urgent but may signal a larger trend.

...and it may not. More brexit fear-mongering.

blowski2• 9 years ago

A few anecdotes doesn't count as evidence. I voted for Remain, and hope very much that the Brexit process collapses and we end up staying in the EU. But I also don't want to spend the next 2 years being drip-fed poor quality articles about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

jacquesm18• 9 years ago

I think that the chances of the Brexit process collapsing just collapsed themselves. The only way to do that was to not trigger Article 50.

jamiethompson4• 9 years ago

Whilst you're perhaps correct, it's still not clear what triggering Article 50 actually means in practice. It's never been done and it's clear that the process was never really designed with a view to ever be invoked.

gutnor• 9 years ago

I also get the feeling that if the process fails during the negotiations, that's the absolute worst way. It will divide the population further and the EU will be the scapegoat again.

The UK has had 9 months to mend its divided population. Get the facts back as first class citizen in debates, firmly drive out the hate-fueled arguments out and draw a picture of how they wanted the UK to be, realistic picture, not the Leave campaign fantasy. Finally with that done, let the houses discuss where the EU helped or hindered and then vote to proceed or not.

That's not how it happens, dialog didn't happen, the UK is at the same stage of division today (or worse) as it was 9 months ago.

atomwaffel• 9 years ago

Not quite:

the UK will be able to revoke its notification of article 50 but this must be “subject to conditions set by all EU27 so they cannot be used as a procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve the actual terms of the United Kingdom’s membership”. [1]

So in short, remaining is less likely than ever but still possible.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-re...

anigbrowl2• 9 years ago

Oh nonsense. If enough people change their minds there will be another referendum or some crisis meetings. 'We can't stop it now,' is self-destructive rationalization.

markatkinson• 9 years ago

The paragraph after the heading 'Why This Matters' sort of addresses the fact that it is anecdotal and how it might still have significance.

Personally I find the article does read a bit like scaremongering propaganda.

SideburnsOfDoom9• 9 years ago

If you want data not anecdotes, then it's early days but here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurse...

davidf18• 9 years ago

Don't you think that its strange that the UK can't train enough nurses (sisters) and has to import nurses from poorer countries?

I guess the nationwide (near) monopoly on healthcare, the National Health Service (NHS) will have to start paying market prices for nurses as well as start more training programs instead of relying on importing cheaper labor.

To say that there aren't enough Brits to do the nursing in a population of 60 million is ridiculous.

The elites in Britain (and perhaps the entire wealthier countries of the EU) basically didn't seem to care (and perhaps encouraged) the importation of labor to drive down market prices of labor both for untrained as well as trained labor. In the case of healthcare, it is simply a means for the government to pay less for healthcare than they would if there were a competitive market instead of their monopoly.

It wasn't absolutely necessary to have the free flow of labor as part of the EU trade agreement. For example, NAFTA between US, Canada, and Mexico does not allow for the free flow of labor, only the free flow of good. I can't think of any trade agreements that the US has with other countries that allows for the free flow of labor. The free flow of labor benefits elites (think professional hiring nannies, government running health services, companies running factories, firms running high tech needing software developers) to help depress wages. Now the elites of Britain will have to start paying market rates for their labor.

andrewla• 9 years ago

Thanks for that link, in between all the rhetoric it's hard to get a clear signal. Do you happen to have any idea where that data comes from? It seems a little suspicious only because the dates chosen for comparisons seems a little cherry-picked, so it's hard to tell if the changes are routine or exceptional.

Only 96 nurses joined the NHS from other European nations in December 2016 – a drop from 1,304 in July, the month after the referendum.

Comparing December to July? Maybe it's semi-annual data? What's the normal level of variance?

2,700 EU nurses left the health service in 2016, compared to 1,600 EU nurses in 2014 – a 68% increase.

Comparing 2016 to 2014? What happened to 2015, or 2013?

The article notes that this is from "freedom of information responses compiled by the Liberal Democrats from 80 of the 136 NHS acute trusts in England", but I can't seem to find a direct source; some things talk about the "Centre for Workforce Intelligence", but I can't get anything specific from there, and other things reference the "Nursing and Midwifery Council", which appears to be a voluntary registration system, but as far as I can tell does not generally publish statistics.

ncr100• 9 years ago

What's the likelihood it will collapse? How could that happen?

woodandsteel• 9 years ago

Agreed, we need data, not just anecdotes.

That said, I imagine a lot of skilled workers are going to reason differently than you and leave.

djmobley6• 9 years ago

Foolish and premature.

The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages.

It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

mdekkers• 9 years ago

It is totally unrestricted immigration of low-skilled individuals that the government (and it's fair to say the British population) are opposed to.

This may be the case. Brexit is the dumbest solution to that particular problem though.

jerf4• 9 years ago

Had any other solutions been made available, Brexit probably wouldn't be happening.

The EU chose to not make solutions available and stuck it into a "take it or leave it" basket. It seems to me to be a recurring pattern with over-centralized government that they start using more and more of their power this way; you can see it in the US now too, for instance in the way the Trump administration is continuing to saber rattle about either enforcing immigration laws as they choose or cutting off as much Federal funding as they can from cities and states that refuse to comply with their interpretation. It's a very tempting way to exert power, but it makes the system increasingly fragile as you do it, because you eventually get to the point where people start seriously considering and/or triggering the "leave it" option (see also Calexit, for instance; still not very serious but certainly more serious now than it was a year ago).

aembleton• 9 years ago

What would be a better solution?

frostburg3• 9 years ago

This is anecdotal, but my friends in the UK (typically working on their PhD or medical doctors from the EU) have already encountered open hostility and have little intention to stay to be exploited for their skills without any guarantee.

djmobley6• 9 years ago

To be explored for their skills? You mean entering into voluntary paid employment, in a civilized western democracy with some of the highest standards of living in the world?

iNerdier• 9 years ago

I think you're missing the point here. These are people who are already here talking about leaving because of a climate of anti-european and more broadly, anti-foreign attitudes in the UK at the moment. I've no doubt the current government will make it less onerous for people like them to come, the difference now is, would they want to?

dominotw• 9 years ago

Britain's biggest buy-to-let landlord bans 'coloured people' because of 'the curry smell' [1]

how is this even legal in UK.

1.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/29/britains-biggest-...

lostboys67• 9 years ago

Apart from the farming industry that loves its poor eastern Europeans to pick crops and is lobbying to keep them - Quite what the average brexit voter thinks about this in east Anglia is another matter

djmobley6• 9 years ago

An endless supply of low-skilled, cheap labour is great for some industries, but not for your average citizen.

This is particularly true when public services are stretched, and there is a chronic shortage of housing.

That is the perception, at least.

nl• 9 years ago

The UK government has not expressed any intention to restrict skilled immigration in industries facing skills shortages.

That doesn't seem to be the case:

Employers would have to pay a £1,000-a-year fee for every EU skilled worker they bring in after Brexit, under plans being considered by the Government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-...

or not:

THE Prime Minister has denied the Government is to introduce a £1k charge on every skilled worker from an EU member state recruited by a British employer after Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/753130/May-slaps-down-minis...

ohh, the PM was wrong. Actually, it is introduced next month:

The Home Office has finally published some details on the Immigration Skills Charge Levy, which will come into force on 6 April 2017, subject to parliamentary approval.... The skills charge will be £1,000 per year of the visa (so £3,000 for a 3-year visa) for medium or large sponsors and £364 per year (so £1,092 for a 3-year visa) for charitable or small sponsors...

http://ellint.net/news/sector/cross-border-hr-policies/immig...

I guess the UK doesn't want skilled immigrants.

douche• 9 years ago

So, they are asking businesses to pony up the equivalent of one Starbucks coffee per day for skilled immigrants? The horror!

lurker456• 9 years ago

it's mostly there to have a bargaining chip in the negotiations with the EU.

d4rti• 9 years ago

I have to ask if you have ever applied for a UK visa, because dealing with the Home Office for visas is very painful, and choosing to relocate now, with a reasonable expectation of having to go through that process I would consider to be rational.

TorKlingberg3• 9 years ago

I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

moomin• 9 years ago

I'm staying for now. Don't want to unnecessarily disrupt my family. But if leaving is what's best for them, I'll be out of the door and won't look back.

I know a few who have moved on too. Not many, but time will tell.

67726e2• 9 years ago

Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.

TorKlingberg3• 9 years ago

He has accepted the new job. Not only because of Brexit of course, there are always multiple reasons for moving. His wife had been getting racist / xenophobic comments.

FilterSweep2• 9 years ago

and not a damn one did.

Since the Patriot Act and other changes in the early 2000s, your nationality is henceforth Sticky if you live in the US.

My sister expatriated last year (to UK, actually) from US, and she had to hire an immigration attorney, go through interrogations (from both destination and comefrom), and actually got sent back to the US once they found accidentally conflicting stories from her friends who currently live in the UK.

I'd never make fun of people who express desire to leave. Not everyone has the same circumstances as you.

MattLeBlanc001• 9 years ago

Same here, EU citizen thinking about the future of my family. I'm in the "wait and see" mode, but if things ugly with the negotiation I will prepare to leave.

I think the biggest problem is not the brain drain, it's the uncertainty. I was planning to buy a house here, but I'm not going to now. This is bad for me and bad for the UK.

andromeda__• 9 years ago

I think Brexit is probably the best decision Britain has made since WWII second only to electing Thatcher.

I would have imagined that techies would appreciate this the most. The E.U is a bureaucratic, insatiable behemoth. Too many regulations and I would like to think that this is something techies have a great disdain for. I mean, just look at how unfairly the E.U has treated co.s like Google, Microsoft and Uber - these companies have deliberately been attacked by the E.U using antitrust laws among other regulations.

How has this helped the situation? I'd say, in no way. Stopping American companies from thriving in the E.U won't help the situation. Instead, learning from previous mistakes and correctly anticipating/predicting the next wave would be greatly rewarded by market forces and this would be the best thing for individual, sovereign European countries.

Please watch this video about the insane E.U laws I've mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44YTTyQKyJQ

ben_w4• 9 years ago

I'm one of the soon-to-be-expat Brits. Like Herr Pierzina, I'm also troubled by the IP Act.

Moving is really not fun, but move I must: the IP Act is unconscionable in many parts, and Brexit takes away one of the few powers that could fight those parts.

Two Home Secretaries in a row that just don't get encryption.

My time is split between finishing my novel, learning German, and trying to catch up on tech that came out while I was writing.

inputcoffee2• 9 years ago

There is more tech on heaven and earth, Horatio, then can be caught up amidst your philosophies.

ben_w4• 9 years ago

Oui, aber mit Deutsche, kaj Esperanoto, και Ελληνικά, I think my philosophies may be broader than most.

More seriously, I know I would be surprised if more than 5% leave willingly. I don't want to go, I just see no choice. Our collective departure will probably boost the wages for developers who do stay in the UK, but by how much, and against which currencies I would not dare to say — economics is an expert level subject, of which I know only the basics.

alimw• 9 years ago

My time is split between finishing my novel, learning German, and trying to catch up on tech that came out while I was writing.

Thanks for sharing!

robk• 9 years ago

Anecdotally I've heard about more people moving to uk from America than leaving uk for EU over the last few months.

sdiepend• 9 years ago

good quote from the comments:

Overlord_Dave • 11 minutes ago

Remember guys and gals, the plural of anecdote is not data

dijit• 9 years ago

The thing is, I agree this article is low quality but the compound nature of brexit+snoopers charter+uncertainty with companies is certainly affecting the attractiveness of the country.

I'm British, I left to go work in Sweden for a couple years while my girlfriend finished her studies here, since I've been here we've had _significant_ challenges and erosions of rights and privacy in the UK, the EU (with all its warts) was investing much more in deprived areas of the country than the UK government was (or had done pre-EU).

It's bleak, there's a bigger country than just London (which currently carries almost the entire of the rest of the UK financially) and the companies that run there are fickle.

There is a self-fulfilling cycle that goes with London, companies go there because it's where the brains are. Brains go there because it's where the companies are.

If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow. Then who carries the UK?

-- Sorry, this turned into a rant, all I really wanted to say is:

Anecdatum is not data; but with enough of it, it can certainly paint a keen picture of the situation for many.

user59944612• 9 years ago

>> If there is another place companies go, the brains will undoubtedly follow.

Companies want the brain to go there, the brains want the company there to go there. Circular dependency.

That's why there are only few tech hubs and they won't change.

jamiethompson4• 9 years ago

It has begun. One of our best developers is moving back to Poland. I can't say I blame him.

5040• 9 years ago

Surely this is a victory for Poland?

TorKlingberg3• 9 years ago

That depends, are there companies in Poland that can make good use of his specific skills? You cannot ignore the effects of matching people with the jobs where they are most productive. People moving between countries is not a zero sum game.

patrickg_zill• 9 years ago

Isn't your company enlightened enough to let him work remotely?

elandybarr• 9 years ago

If the roles they are leaving are truly "in demand", the market will make up for it.

For perspective, that feeling of, "Wow! This place is different now" is what some of these same people were imposing on the locals.

This article seems like it was solely written to make Leave voters feel guilty and further shame them in the eyes of those who voted Stay. What else could be the point?

pimterry• 9 years ago

I'm in a similar position: I've recently left (to Spain, working remotely) originally temporarily, but the further this goes the less tempted I am to ever head home.

That said, this is all anecdotal. Still, while anecdotes aren't data, they do suggest that there could be some interesting data hidden nearby... Is there any hard research or even just large surveys that are actually looking at this?

hn_throwaway_992• 9 years ago

It's at least somewhat ironic, though, that the first person profiled in the article is from Norway, as Norway has always rejected EU membership. If you're upset about Britain leaving the EU, "taking your talents back to Norway" makes it sound like EU membership isn't exactly top of your concerns.

Certhas• 9 years ago

Norway is in the single market though. Not the same as being in the EU but clearly here conflated (and the most significant difference to what the UK wants).

SideburnsOfDoom9• 9 years ago

as Norway has always rejected EU membership

But Norway is in the European Economic Area, meaning the (all or nothing) agreement for "the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the European Single Market".

if keeping those freedoms are your concern, then you have every right to prefer Norway over England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

hn_throwaway_992• 9 years ago

But negotiations haven't even started between UK and EU over the terms of the exit and what the relationship will look like in 2 years. Seems this article is trying to take a few anecdotes that have a tenuous relationship at best to Brexit being the real root cause of these people leaving.

s3nnyy3• 9 years ago

After Brexit everyone in Zurich thought that all FinTech startups would move from London to Frankfurt or maybe Zurich, since Switzerland has tight relationships with the EU.

This did not seem to happen.

Also, I haven't gotten more UK people asking me for tech jobs in Zurich compared to before Brexit. (I run a tech recruiting agency; happy to help people who want to move to Switzerland, you finde the recently released job-list here: https://coderfit.catsone.com/careers/ - job-descriptions are still WIP, please bear with us)

jacquesm18• 9 years ago

I think that one major reason this did not happen so far is because the rest of the EU was hoping the UK would come to their senses and cancel their brexit ambition. Now that it is a fait accompli you can expect all these things to actually happen. Frankfurt has good chances, Amsterdam and Paris a bit less so, Switzerland does not have any better position than London so I fail to see why that would happen if there would be a reason to move. Whoever wants to be represented in Zurich is already there.

gokhan• 9 years ago

Your ability to connect any recruitment related article discussing something local for anywhere in the world to your recruiting agency in Zurich is impressive:) I don't normally recognize people on HN without looking at the nickname but I know it's you all the time :)

s3nnyy3• 9 years ago

Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value.

Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.

gonvaled2• 9 years ago

The UK is a EU member, will full rights and full obligations. Now, and at least for the next two years.

Brexit has not yet happened, by a long stretch of imagination. A letter has been delivered, nothing more and nothing less.

Supply chains have not changed, work rights have not changed, residence and movement rights have not changed, trade costs have not changed, taxation rules have not changed.

The only real change up to now has been the depreciation of the pound. That would mean that less foreign applicants are interested in moving to the UK, but there is less of an argument about whether UK nationals are more interested in moving to the rEU, for two reasons:

- less mobility of UK citizens, because of low proficiency levels in foreign languages

- higher rates / salary in the UK, which still holds even after the devaluation of the pound.

You will not see big changes in a long time, even if Brexit turns out to be a game changer (for the better or worse)

wayn3• 9 years ago

this is especially silly given the fact that switzerland isnt exactly part of the EU, either.

SideburnsOfDoom9• 9 years ago

This did not seem to happen.

Slowly does it. It would not be fair to say that nothing is happening:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-21/goldman-m...

The draft EU position has "no special deal for the City of London" which makes a lot of things moving out of London very likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-re...

inputcoffee2• 9 years ago

Ultimate Irony: if the Brexit leads to brain drain leads to importing more immigrants.

bengale2• 9 years ago

We've already been told this won't lead to a drop in immigration as we need the staff. The power to control it will be ours but we won't be exercising it.

d--b• 9 years ago

Been there, moved out.

fpp• 9 years ago

The Brexit is just one of key changes hitting the UK tech working / start-up / corporate environments in the moment.

Brexit, IP Act, changes to IR35 (in / out), the £ drop, announcements of major city firms to reduce staff by 30%+, slowing global economies (real not what statistics are telling), UK service price increases of 10% - 20% as seen in the last months or to come with e.g. electricity, IT and communication services in the next weeks.

All these contribute to a climate of uncertainty and making the UK less competitive.

I've been closely watching various areas of the IT contractor market for the last months - these are normally very good indicators how healthy the industry is / how positive or negative forward looking is.

In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment.

This might all sound very gloomy, but if the UK government continues with their path as seen in the last months, they are burning the ground we all in the UK stand on.

titraprutr• 9 years ago

In more than 15 years I have never seen these markets being as bad as they are in the moment

Care to elaborate a bit on this? I'm genuinely interested.

throwaway_374• 9 years ago

Curious to get some perspective from (British) Londoners and how they feel about this. Do they not feel cornered out of the market against the top 1% of global talent heading to London? Particularly in tech with insane recruiting procedures.

jwineinger• 9 years ago

And the final sentences of the piece undermine the rest of it.

Many technologists interviewed will remain in the U.K. through Brexit, citing family ties, work or a desire to stay and effect change at home. While few technologists interviewed offered optimistic outlooks of a post-Brexit British tech scene, many are determined to do what they can in its wake.

cttet• 9 years ago

No one think of it in another way: they were originally talents in their home country and it is actually the recovery of the "Brain-Drain" of their home country...

Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

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