Ask YC: Are you working on your startup/side-project strictly in your spare time?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=137978

by tonyvt2005 • 18 years ago

17 54 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

If so, what keeps you from working on the startup full-time? Obviously there are many reasons people don't make the leap.

1. Personal reasons / family obligations

2. Can't afford to lose the salary (could tie into 1)

3. You enjoy your day job.

4. You don't think you're capable or have enough experience.

5. You're waiting for that "killer idea".

6. You have the idea you want to go with but you're waiting for some semblance of success ("We have x # of users now, I think we're on to something...")

7. You haven't found the right people to work with.

(EDIT) 8. You're not doing it for the money. You want to build something cool for yourself, your friends, etc.

I'm sure there are many more reasons. What is yours?

pragmatic• 18 years ago

I make a pretty good salary at my current job. I have a young son at home and I provide all the benefits. My salary could be replace, my benefits would be much harder to replace.

So nights, weekends, lunchbreaks, etc, I'm writing and hacking away...

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Yeah, benefits can be a big deal. I work for a small defense contractor and they're paying for me to go to grad school.

There's certainly nothing wrong with taking the safer route when you have a family to provide for.

markdc2• 18 years ago

Agreed. I quit a good job at a major company to join a venture-funded startup in 2000...obviously my timing was terrible and the startup went under within a year. The result was devastating personally and financially. I'm just now to the point where I have enough savings to try again...but at the same time I've rebuilt my career. It is really, really hard to walk away from a good paycheck again, especially since the economy looks like recession in 2008. So I work on things on the weekends.

procrastitron2• 18 years ago

I don't know why I didn't think to mention this before, but there are HR outsourcing companies that will let you set up a co-employment agreement with them. Basically, these companies get tens of thousands of small businesses together, and then bargain with insurance companies as a group. This way they can get much better rates than if you tried to buy individual insurance.

So what you do is file your new business paperwork with the state, and then buy an HR contract with one of these companies. I think the largest one is Administaff, but my company recently switched from them to another one called TriNet, which is supposed to be cheaper.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

To answer my own question, I think I'm a combination of 2, 6, and 8.

I make a decent salary working on a project for the DoD. It's a project that's fairly interesting and to top it off we get to use Rails, which I enjoy using and learning. If I didn't feel like I was getting anything out of the job then I'd probably look to something else.

I don't really feel a sense of urgency to strike it rich yet. I just want to build something cool. For now I'm happy just working at my own pace and trying to maintain a decent work-life balance. I'm in grad school part time and once that's over I'll have more time for my personal projects.

procrastitron2• 18 years ago

Remember, creative activities can be their own reward. In those cases profitability pretty much goes out the window.

For instance, my current side project is based on my personal interests and probably could not make for a successful business. It's an operating system project and obviously, that space is already taken. However, none of the current operating systems appeal to my technical aesthetics, so I decided to start my own.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Definitely, I agree. I should add that to my list.

I'd still develop software as a hobby even if there was no money in it.

larryfreeman• 18 years ago

I've planned my departure from my current gig in 2 years.

The main reason for the delay is that I need to regain my technical edge. I've been a manager for 7+ years and am not at the level I once was.

I'm also playing around with some ideas. If I end up with something interesting, then I will launch the start up earlier.

staunch• 18 years ago

I think you'd regain that technical edge a lot faster if you were the sysadmin, programmer, dba, network guy, etc.

wallflower2• 18 years ago

Great question. I think it's ok to deep-dive in (as long as you wade in). I know some friends who have always worked for themselves, and I am always impressed at their constant confidence. I observe some older folks (and even some around my age) at work and I see they're going through the motions sometimes - I don't want to be them. Build something with passion..

I'm starting to learn Ruby/Ruby on Rails on my train commute. I'm doing this to broaden my skill set (specialize in Java for my job). It's slow going at times and sometimes I only do 15 minutes a day.

A major project at work has (almost) come to an end (1.0). And I'm worried about the inevitable screeching-to-a-halt (from overtime busy to idle bored). As a result, a few of us at work are thinking of pitching a Ruby on Rails project to key decision makers (it would be perfect for the application in mind). I'm almost convinced I'll need to build the prototype on weekends (but once we have it - it will sell itself - and they'll give us the go ahead). And the best thing is when we successfully sell the prototype, I'll be able to officially use Ruby on Rails on company time..

Of course, I have a small laundry list of projects involving web mashups/integrations that I want to implement (with RoR). Like procrastitron stated, all of them are projects I would use and if other people liked them (side benefit). I had trouble with pointers ten years ago so Objective-C is probably a stretch - I'll throw this iPhone application idea out there - I got a seeming mass text from a friend 'Hey how are you. What are you up to' - iPhone app idea: Group broadcast SMS "mail merge" - Hey <contact name>. I haven't talked to you in <rough time since last talked> What's new?'

If I had a long-term plan... it's trying to diversify my technological skill set. And, I'm constantly trying to diversify my overall portfolio with long-term side projects like Salsa dancing and public speaking (with the aim of getting out of technology [maybe]). I find I learn (about startups, business, and the business of technology) by osmosis just by reading news.YC. I love the news.YC community (8aweek keeps it from being an obsession but I cheat on the weekends).

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

I like what you said about overall portfolio - while my main focus now is to continually improve my technical skills (I work with Rails and learn new things quite often), in the long run it is best to be well-rounded. I'm interested in learning more about business, stock and real-estate investing, and learning to speak new languages.

poppysan• 18 years ago

I would say supporting a lifestyle is the #1 reason for ppl to have day jobs period. If your kid starves, who cares if your startup succeeds.

wallflower2• 18 years ago

"Work doesn't necessarily make you happy/fulfilled but it gives you the money to do the things that make you happy"

huhtenberg3• 18 years ago

6 and 5 are closely related. The way it worked for me was to

  (a) generate and *polish* the idea; 
    (1) make sure it is technically sound
    (2) not trivial, i.e. not easy to copy
    (3) maps well on business opportunities
    (4) does not have IP (patents, licenses, etc) problems

  (b) implement it about 80-90% through, prepare solid beta
  (c) release beta and see how it's does
  (d) if all goes well, evaluate the progress and estimate how long until the first revenue comes in

Steps (a.2) and (a.3) filter out A LOT of ideas. Step (b) also tends to screw things up as some ideas work out to be hard or even impossible to implement alone or on a modest budget. Steps (c) and (d) are pretty much the last mile before the full-time involvement. If the idea was thought through, the chances of failure on last two steps are not very high.

So I'd say 2+5+6 (+8) is the combination I had. Step (a) took about 2 years, (b) - under a year, (c) - 6 months. Your mileage may obviously vary :)

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Just curious - was a.2 something you felt like you HAD to achieve? There's tons of examples of copycat apps out there; some are just better executed than others.

huhtenberg3• 18 years ago

(2) determines a level of a "competitive entry barrier", and as such it's really a part of (3).

The harder the idea is to copy, the more time you have for the app to mature. Any new idea needs real-world tweaking, e.g. the actual use of the app may end up being different from what you envisioned, some non-obvious features may be in a high-demand, unforeseen scalability or usability issues may surface, etc. The longer you have to address these issues without worrying about users leaving to the competitor the better.

Writing an actual copycat app is a different game altogether. I don't have an experience with it, but the common sense suggests that it's not worth doing unless there is a large, under-served market segment or all existing solutions really suck. Hoping to bite a piece out of established market with a couple of (flashy) features is not a very smart thing to do.

webwright• 18 years ago

I'd love to hear some reasoning behind: "not trivial, i.e. not easy to copy"

Who cares if it's easy to copy? Paul Buccheit says he built the first version of Gmail in an afternoon. Digg was famously built in fairly short order. Twitter, Flickr, Facebook-- all would be fairly trivial to clone. Less trivial to scale, obviously but... Feature-wise their V1 releases weren't that complex.

If you want something that you can do in your off hours AND something that isn't easy to copy, I'd say you might have an unreasonably low opinion of hackers around the world. Surely there's nothing you could build in your off hours that a few persistent hackers couldn't clone in a few months of full-time work, is there?

More on the "why should you care" front-- can you name any successful product/company that succeeded cloning someone else's idea? Maybe you can, but it's the exception, not the the rule. Now there ARE examples of companies jumping into the existing marketing and cleaning up by doing BETTER (iPhone, Flickr, etc) - but that's not cloning... That's innovating.

huhtenberg3• 18 years ago

For reasoning see my other reply in this thread. Specifically your "few months" estimate is rather conservative. A team of professionals can clone the app or the service in a matter of weeks. The question here rather is how easy to put this cloning team together, i.e. how mainstream the idea is to begin with.

Additionally, you appear to be mostly considering high-profile web apps, which is not exactly the whole software universe. Head to the tucows.com, pick virtually any category and you will see it full of apps that are very similar. On the other end of spectrum, have a look at companies like NetScreen, which effectively grew their business by building cheaper Cisco devices. And this is not a singular example, it's more of a general MO rather.

All in all, I wrote about what worked for me and what worked exceptionally well. This does not imply that it's the only way.

pchristensen• 18 years ago

Much more important if you're working part time and your competitors are working full time. The longer they take, the more life you have.

vikas5678• 18 years ago

Grad student, paying for my studies from a loan + small income from freelance programming, I cant afford to give up either, so I get as much done in my free time as possible.

s3graham2• 18 years ago

9. Failed at full-time (gave myself 6 months). For now, I'm back to enjoying a job + #8.

Maybe I'll try again if I convince myself something's good enough to try for. Are you generating $500/day in value piddling around on your MacBook in Ruby? Are you generating orders of magnitude more than that?

vlad• 18 years ago

You're supposed to fail.

s3graham2• 18 years ago

Well then, I did a helluva good job :)

ephextom• 18 years ago

Of the options you offer, 2, 3 & 6, but I'm also finding the most important benefits of full-time contracting is it's a great way to meet like-minded people who could become collaborators or investors in my business.

I guess also, it's good way to stay in a positive frame of mind. In our first go at running a business, we had no idea what we were doing and after 2-3 years killing ourselves on the startup we ended up broke & depressed. If success breeds success equally failure can breed failure, and after enough time spent with that smell of 'loser' about you, you start to lose the respect of your peers and question your own worth.

It's taken me 2 years to get back on my feet to a point where life is going really well, and I'm enjoying success both in my day job and my startup. Whilst I'd love to quit full time work and focus on the startup (which I may be able to do soon with funding from some of the people I've worked for), having a day job has been great in getting the startup happening. By not relying on it for your living you have more freedom to do it right for the long term, and even if things are tough with the startup, your judgment isn't clouded by panic.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

"Fear of failure" should be on the list. A lot of people don't know how to deal with failure. Some will let it ruin them, others will rebound as you did.

Those that rebound will have undoubtedly learned valuable lessons for their next try. For people in certain situations and certain stages in life, this is too big of a risk. Failure cannot be an option.

lyime2• 18 years ago

The main reason is I am going to school, and I don't see any point dropping out just to do a startup. I have many years to do that. But i am doing it on the side as we speak. I have had a few ideas over the year, although I haven't found enough reasons to devote much time to them, which is pretty much (5).

After a recent launch buy a certain fruit theme company I have found an excellent if not a killer idea to really start to think about the next steps. I am current gather people but I do have the issue with number 7 and I am not a hacker by YC's definition. I have started to gather resources (potential people) and working on the side project apart form going to school full time (computer engineering).

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Fruit theme company? Wonder who that could be? :)

bayareaguy2• 18 years ago

http://www.fruit.com ?

(in case you don't already know where that link goes, see if can guess before clicking it)

wayland• 18 years ago

i would pick reason #2 & #3

richardw• 18 years ago

I'll go fulltime when I need to. Right now I think it's healthy to not be cooped up at home all the time. It also gives me an outlet for working on other things so I don't get a numbed-brain from staring at the same stuff every day.

Although I've been live for two weeks and the money has been pretty good! We'll see if it's sustainable.

nazgulnarsil• 18 years ago

startups are like everything else. you have to do a risk/benefit analysis. If a person feels they are getting enough (salary + benefit + job security) from being employed what is the point in creating a startup? startups have their own benefits. working for yourself, the potential for a huge payoff. But you have to decide if it's worth the risk. On this site, and in the silicon valley in general, creating a startup is considered a good thing regardless of the individual circumstances.

With the salaries as they are in california, people in high-demand salaried positions don't need a startup to get rich. all you need to do is forgo rampant consumerism and keeping up with the joneses and you'll be a millionaire in about 20 years with a decent investment strategy.

In the meantime there is no shortage of time for side projects, and you get the added bonus of not having to stress about something you truly enjoy doing because you aren't doing it as your main source of income.

I'm not anti-startup, but working for yourself isn't a universal good.

kingnothing• 18 years ago

I'm a student and feel obligated to finish my undergrad degree, although if my startup takes off, I'll have no qualms about putting it on hold.

On the other hand, I have a couple of ideas that will be coming out in the next five years, and if I could get the right team and funding together, I would drop everything in a heart beat.

mosburger• 18 years ago

Put me into the "trapped in day job for pay and benefits" category. I've got two small kids now, and I've got to think of them first. I guess that means I'm in categories #1 and #2. Perhaps a little bit of #5, "waiting for that killer idea." If my idea was killer enough, maybe I would be less afraid of looking for investors.

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion (it's one of the reasons I don't go to reddit anymore), but it does make you wonder how many more businesses could get off the ground if we had government-provided healthcare, and people didn't feel stuck at their day-jobs for the health insurance. :/

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Good point. I think gov't provided healthcare would have a huge effect on small businesses.

Let's go Obam.... ok wait, let's not get political :)

markdc2• 18 years ago

Or if we just had competition in health care. It's illegal in America to sell health care insurance across state lines, for example. It's also illegal for associations to buy group health care. One could imagine a competitive market where you could shop for insurance online nationwide, and where groups like Y Combinator or university alumni associations could offer insurance to members (getting the price benefits of scale that individuals can't get). That's John McCain's approach. U.S. tax policy is the reason health care is employer-provided-- that's what we need to fix, not expand the government's role in the system.

bkj1232• 18 years ago

started my own solo concompany doing business intelligence work (e.g. predictive modeling). current contract takes about 45 hrs per week and I need to work extra to getit's funny. I left the corporate world in August to become a business intelligence consultant (e.g. predictive modeling). I spend 40+ hours/week at my current client and looking to line up future work. yet, i don't consider this to be my startup (much to my wife's chagrin)

other reasons for not working on the start-up full time is that I'm not it will make money, I question my experience, and I am having trouble finding people to partner that have the skills needed including the passion and mindset to work hard and question things, including myself

poronski• 18 years ago

psst .. you can edit the post after it's first submitted :)

bkj1232• 18 years ago

it's funny. I left the corporate world in August to start my own biz as a solo business intelligence consultant (e.g. predictive modeling). I spend 40+ hours/week at my current client and looking to line up future work. yet, i don't consider this to be my startup (much to my wife's chagrin)

wenbert2• 18 years ago

for me, it would be number 2. I cant afford to lose the salary. Here in the Philippines, there are no YCombinators or Launchboxes (or i don't know one :P)... if there was funding, i would drop everything in a heartbeat and concentrate to work on my big "idea"... for now, this big-"idea" stays on the extra hours at home and on weekends...

sometimes i wish that people in the US would fund startups here in the philippines. 1USD == 40Pesos. the funding would go a long way here. and in case the startup succeeds, labor is dirt cheap here - people speak english and they have skills.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

That's an interesting one. Difficulty in finding funding overseas. I wonder if the YCs of the world will branch out internationally someday. I don't see why not.

wenbert2• 18 years ago

Overseas funding would be great but YCs and similar companies would have to be careful though. I am not sure in other places, but here in Cebu(Philippines), everything is booming... Infrastructure is improving due to large international companies (EG: Lexmark, NEC, etc.) setting up in this small island. And like i said, everyone speaks english...

omarish• 18 years ago

I'm in school right now, but I do my schoolwork in my spare time.

It's all in your state of mind.

Best of luck.

johns• 18 years ago

Can't give up the salary (wife, house, etc). Luckily I've found an employer supportive of my startup (was originally a consulting customer) and has let me structure my day job to get more time than nights and weekends to work on it.

I went at it full-time for 6 months when I first launched and it didn't fail, I just ran out of money to sustain a salary. That was 18 months ago, I'm still solvent and quitting working at it full-time was probably the best thing to do for the long-term viability. My goal has always been to get going on as little resources as possible so that if it failed, it wouldn't be a huge disaster. So far, so good.

bkrausz• 18 years ago

I'm not working full-time because of college. I've heard many arguments for/against it, but I do feel that a degree is a useful and worthwhile plan B in case you do need to go to a big company for a paycheck. So for now I hack away on weekends (and weekdays, and whenever I'm not working on homework) in hopes that when I do get out of college I won't necessarily need to cash in on that plan B. That, and if I dropped out of college my family would disown/dismember me :).

lampy• 18 years ago

How about #1+2 and absolutely not #3?

That is, if I liked my day job, I wouldn't be looking for ways to fulfill my family finances by doing something else?

zealog• 18 years ago

For me, it's all about number 2 (and how it relates to #1) and my current contracts and obligations at my "day job."

I build startups all day every day, so I'm comfortable with the field. I've got what I think is a good idea and a ton of execution on it so far. I have a small group of testers that (about 20% friends, the rest random strangers) and a desire to make a great product.

There is a great monetary upside potential, but I just don't have the resources at this time to quit and focus 100% on this. Of course, I sleep so very little that I spend at least as many hours "on the side" as I do at my day job, so it might be somewhat moot anyway.

bayareaguy2• 18 years ago

A combination of #3, #4 and #8:

#3 - I'm very committed to the people and project at my regular job and I like things there too much to want to leave.

#4 - my idea will only work with a good web interface. Web gui/design is not where my skills are at the moment.

#8 - this is something I want for myself. there's a chance others may want functionality but I know if I don't get the interface right I'll only confuse people and I'll only get one chance at a first impression.

wlievens• 18 years ago

Mostly item 2 caused by 6. When 6 is demonstrated, 2 might become less ominous.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Yeah, that's a pretty natural way to look at it.

cmm324• 18 years ago

I am working on my startup all the time. At work, at home, out on the town. I am always talking about it, emailing about it, and marketing it. To some I may look like a whore because there is not one family member or friend who I have not asked if they have connections to anyone in property management or real estate investment. Why I don't drop all my work and focus on it full time is lacking of capital. If I had enough money to get by for 6 months then I would do it in a heart beat. But that is not the case.

adityakothadiya• 18 years ago

One of the reasons is Immigration issues if you are working in other country (USA). Having H1B visas and pending Green Card (permanent residency) application are most common reasons of not able to leave your current employer. These laws are so strict and complicated, that it's not easy to leave the job and start your company.

tonyvt200511• 18 years ago

Good point, forgot about that one. I know people in that situation - not sure if they're looking to do a startup, but if they did it would be hard for them to leave their current company.

TrevorJ• 18 years ago

I am working on it in my spare time, mostly since I have to pay bills.

Ask YC: Are you working on your startup/side-project strictly in your spare time?

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