Ask Hackers: How to become the best JavaScript programmer? (q by 12yr old)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=135494

by javascripter • 18 years ago

38 58 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I love everything about the web and web 2.0 and I would love to become the best JavaScript programmer ever!

Can you give me hints and tips to become one?

PS. I am 12 years old

aneesh• 18 years ago

1) Work on challenging problems. Try to do something you're not sure you can.

2) Find a good mentor - it could be a prof at a local university, family friend who is a hacker

3) Practice, practice, practice - write javascript to make stuff for fun.

4) Go to websites you like and de-construct their javascript code and figure out what it's doing.

5) Don't be shy to reach out for advice, like you're doing now.

pibefision• 18 years ago

6) Go to school, even when you are not going to learn Javascript there, you are going to learn a lot of things that are very important for your projects too.

llimllib• 18 years ago

> Go to school... you are going to learn...

The learning will not come to you, you need to go out and get it. Don't just go to school, attack school, suck the juice out of the fruit, and have fun doing it. Make it fun and hard.

crashmoriarty• 18 years ago

I started learning programming at 12 years old. An ideal year in my opinion. Experiment with everything you have the time to learn about. You may be surprised at what you can do with an otherwise bland tool or function.

juanpablo• 18 years ago

Read a good book about Javascript, like "Head First Javascript".

After you've finished reading it, learn what can Javascript libraries like Mootolols or JQuery can offer.

And of course: practice, practice and practice. Working in your own challenging projects is the best way to do that.

Enjoy it.

robmnl• 18 years ago

give jquery a try:

http://jquery.com

Most fun javascript library ever.

domnit• 18 years ago

Learning a library is not the way I would recommend learning a language. At 12 years old, javascripter has no time constraint to build a product fast.

javascripter, learn about Javascript's language features. Learn about nested function and function passing. Learn about object-oriented Javascript and prototypes. Learn the difference between Javascript the language, and DOM, the thing within the language you use to add functionality to web pages. If you find that you are repeating things, write your own library.

Is this the first programming language you are learning? If so, it will give you a leg up when you learn a more conventional language like C or Java, because it will give your mind flexibility. If you already know a programming language, understand that different programming languages have different ideas about how programs can or should be expressed. (That's why there are so many languages.) It will sometimes be helpful to see how something in a new language is similar to a language you already know, but other times you have to just say to yourself, this is different, and I have to think a new way.

jeresig2• 18 years ago

I don't believe this, at all. A JavaScript library abstracts away frustrating details that aren't related to the JavaScript language: like insane browser bugs.

Instead choosing a good library can give you free range to explore the advanced programming concepts in JavaScript, instead. jQuery, for example, is highly functional. It makes heavy use of lambdas and closures - even encouraging newbie programmers to use them.

If you want to get better at programming, through programming JavaScript, then a library is the only way that you'll be able to keep your sanity and make that a reality.

trevelyan• 18 years ago

Amen. Simplifies DOM traversal, allows you to do cool things (others aren't doing commercially yet), and takes cross-browser compatibility out of your hair.

jcl• 18 years ago

I've been learning JavaScript myself, and I've been finding Douglas Crockford's site useful:

http://www.crockford.com/

(Note that to become the best JavaScript programmer ever, you'll probably have to pick up some other languages along the way. But JavaScript is both a good language to learn and a good language for learning, so it's not a bad idea to learn JavaScript really well first before learning others. Keep an open mind.)

mcxx• 18 years ago

"some other languages" a.k.a. Lisp, really

gruseom2• 18 years ago

Get Firebug and play with it. (You probably know this, but just in case...) Firebug is a Firefox plugin with a Console tab that lets you enter any Javascript you want and shows you what it evaluates to. If you type 2+2, it will say 4, and so on. It will also let you explore the internals of web pages and fiddle with them to learn how they work.

The best way, in fact the only way, to learn programming is to read and write a lot of code. An interactive environment like Firebug makes that easy. If I were you, I'd get myself a good Javascript book and type in the examples as I read them. Then I'd try modifying them to do cool things. Good luck!

Edit: when you get stuck, ask questions. I taught myself programming when I was your age and my biggest obstacle was not having anyone around who could help me when I got stuck. Nowadays that's not a problem since there are lots of people on the web who are happy to help.

cstejerean2• 18 years ago

+1 for Firebug. Getting out of my Python comfort zone and writing Javascript used to be scary. But now that I have an awesome debugger and the ability to experiment at runtime (and jQuery) I feel comfortable writing enough Javascript to make my applications suck less.

Spyckie• 18 years ago

+2 for Firebug. Firebug should be your number 1 priority to get familiar with.

jQuery... I have mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand, its very good for high level thinking and writing good, readable code. On the other hand, it slows down your javascript code by at least 2x, which is particularly noticeable if you're doing a javascript intensive application. Then again, the future of browsers is speeding up javascript, so this may not be an issue in a couple of years.

My experience with Prototype is that it handles the speed issue much better - however, it is a bloated monster of a framework.

ken• 18 years ago

1. Become a great programmer: http://norvig.com/21-days.html

2. Then learn Javascript.

notphilatall• 18 years ago

Much respect to you, young coder! I avoided Javascript for far too long, but when I needed to learn it, the o'Reilly Javascript & DHTML cookbook was a great resource.

Firebug is nice, but Venkman's Javascript Debugger for FireFox is my favorite. The interface is a bit weird, but your mind should be flexible enough to figure it out. :)

Good luck!

JofArnold• 18 years ago

1) The #1 secret to good JS is mastering crazy-yet-delicious object-orientated prototype madness. You won't get anywhere just learning how to write functions, but learning how to use prototyping well is a esoteric skill, so that's where Crockford comes in:

2) Check out the videos on http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ There's 2.2gigs of them for you to digest. Crockfords are especially good, and will teach you good practices.

3) Use a framework like mootools to save you time on real projects. However, I advise against assuming these frameworks are "perfect"; they all have faults.

4) Don't copy other people too much - many JS devs, including me, are terrible programmers :-P

5) Learn JS by creating AJAX projects as it's so important to web apps. "Professional Ajax" by Zakas is a decent place to start.

6) Enjoy it! JS is a fantastic language, and the quick returns can be incredibly rewarding. It has its faults, but it is amazingly powerful and quite unique.

gruseom2• 18 years ago

You won't get anywhere just learning how to write functions

I totally disagree. Learning how to write functions is a big, big deal and will take you far indeed. I can't think of anything more important for learning programming.

Meanwhile, "object-orientated prototype madness" is entirely optional.

jcromartie• 18 years ago

Don't copy other people too much - many JS devs, including me, are terrible programmers

One of the biggest problems with JavaScript is its community. I'm not talking about N.YC readers who think they are bad programmers. No, I'm talking about the fact that there are reams and reams of plain old bad advice on JavaScript out there that still outrank the good stuff in most search engines.

99% of the time a Google search on a JavaScript problem will score you pages of hits with antiquated, non-standard, buggy or IE-only approaches.

engtech• 18 years ago

SO TRUE.

bprater• 18 years ago

Good luck man. I've been programming all my life and still love it. Javascript is a great language to dive into.

Always be working on a project. Come up with an idea, like tic-tac-toe and start hacking on it, until you are finished. Then cook up another idea and hack on it. Without an idea, you'll just float around. Get Firebug and learn to love jQuery, it's magic.

And if you want to be great, you don't want to be a programmer, you want to be a hacker. :)

gmercer• 18 years ago

I'd suggest learning Flex. For the longterm, I think this is the true winner.

If you are absolutely determined to learn Javascript - I agree with others read the articles by Crockford and watch the Yahoo UI videos - Read the code for dojo. Alex is one sharp javascript guy. - For ajax frameworks look at DWR

Good luck... and have fun !!

tlrobinson• 18 years ago

JavaScript: The Definitive Guide (a.k.a. the Rhino Book, published by O'Reilly) is a great place to start as well as a great reference.

In fact, Douglas Crockford (mentioned elsewhere in this topic) says it's the only JavaScript book he can recommend.

riklomas• 18 years ago

Another great place to start is Jeremy Keith's DOM Scripting book (published by Friends of ED), it's really well written and a great introduction to unobtrusive, clean Javascript. There's a sample chapter on his site: http://domscripting.com/book/

On a side note, don't learn a library as the first thing you do as you'll be learning how to code in jQuery, Prototype, etc, rather than in Javascript.

dfranke5• 18 years ago

Hi javascripter. First of all, welcome to news.yc!

There's at least one thing you're already doing right: you're starting out with a problem that interests you. However, I don't think you have quite the right goal. You don't want to be the best Javascript programmer ever. You want to be the best programmer ever. Javascript should just be one weapon in your arsenal, and a rather specialized one at that.

That said, you have to start somewhere. Usually I recommend that people start with Scheme and read SICP (online at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html), but since you've indicated that you're interested in web programming, that's probably not the right first step for you. The trouble with web programming is that it's messy. Any non-trivial website requires you to understand a whole alphabet soup of different programming languages and markup languages, some of which were designed for each other and some of which weren't, and then to top that off you get to worry about Internet Explorer dain bramage. If you're just programming for an audience of you and nobody else and you choose carefully what to work on, then you can ignore some of these issues, but sooner or later they'll leak in and it's going to seem overwhelming. (This isn't necessarily bad; coping with information overload is one of the most valuable skills a hacker can learn.)

So, here's what I suggest. Start by learning Python. It's a clean, reasonably powerful, easy-to-learn language, and it's very good for web programming. I assume you already know HTML; if not, learn that first -- it'll take you a couple days max. You can make a pretty capable website using just Python and HTML. You could almost write news.yc, except for the AJAX up-arrows which require Javascript. A site like this would be pretty big as a first project, though.

I'll let someone else recommend a Python tutorial. I just learned it from the reference manual, so I don't know a good one.

Once you feel confident making web pages using Python and HTML, then it's time to start learning Javascript. It might also be a good time to go back and learn to write standards-compliant XHTML-strict and CSS, since this will make working with the Javascript DOM a bit less of a headache, but this is optional and you can do it in parallel with learning Javascript if you do it at all.

Finally, here are some bits of non-technical reading I recommend:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

http://paulgraham.com/gh.html

brooksbp2• 18 years ago

Am I the only one who suspects spam?

dfranke5• 18 years ago

I think so. Why do you suspect that?

brooksbp2• 18 years ago

His alias is "Javascripter"... he wants to be the "best in the world"... he's 12 years old... just the overall wording taunts me with a hint of spam.

I don't think a 12 yr old would have that enthusiasm for pure javascript.. would definitely ask about HTML (if he knows html he knows how to find out about javascript?)...

what 12 year old knows about YC.news?

Seriously... I'm calling this one out... spam.

xirium3• 18 years ago

You've already got the atitude to be an excellent programmer. Your success is assured if you learn more than one programming language. For you purposes, learn Pascal, learn C, learn Perl, learn JavaScript. This will minimise your learning curve and risk of failure while giving you increasing power and understanding.

dfranke5• 18 years ago

Ugh. Pascal? What for?

xirium3• 18 years ago

A langauge with strong typing and bound checking is ideal when you're learning algorithms. A newbie coding a bubble sort in Pascal encounters less mysterious failure modes than a newbie coding a bubble sort in C. (Consider the off-by-one gotcha at the end of the inner loop.) I know that strongly typed languages are unpopular on this forum and I've been downmodded for mentioning one. However, consider the suggested progression of languages to be like riding a bicycle and then having the training wheels removed.

christo• 18 years ago

I know there's some redundancy in this advice but I thought I'd mention it to support the great tips already here.

Practice. Read and write a lot of code. You might try to work your way through set problems like Project Euler or the Ruby Quiz or other competitions.

Learn the "laws of physics" of programming - some things are harder to do than others. all programming is an interplay between making a tiny, trivial and deterministic step on one hand and managing complexity through abstraction on the other.

it's most instructive to try things for yourself - even if you fail - but on the other hand make sure you attempt things you will definitely succeed at too because the feeling of success will fuel your passion. you will never be a great developer without passion!

Watch Douglas Crockford's JavaScript videos.

use Flanagan's Rhino book.

Try and use different programming patterns and styles in javascript: imperative, functional, object oriented, continuation-passing, dependency injection, fluent interface.

Always use var and semicolon.

Never use "with" or "eval".

Plan to learn another programming language (which smart people recommend you) and it will also greatly assist your javascript programming - you should not be too tied to a single language that you can't change. If you really like web 2.0 you should learn a good server side language as well. As a second to JavaScript for a youngster I would recommend Ruby or Python, (or PHP if you must). Other languages are really great for that purpose but these will be easier to learn first and will be readily available on cheap hosting providers. Those others may include: Lisp/Scheme, Smalltalk, Java, C#, Scala etc. Do not learn VB.

Get firebug.

Read "The Pragmatic Programmer".

Reuse code.

Write automated tests. You can use a unit test framework.

Write lots of cranky cryptic puzzle code right now. Get it out of your system. Then seek to write clean comprehensible code forever more.

Port code from another language.

Recognise that lots of people in professional development have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Others are absolute genius gurus who's words you should memorise and meditate on. Good luck telling the difference!

Use the force.

edw519• 18 years ago

A little dated, but the site I originally learned Javascript:

http://www.jalix.org/ressources/internet/dhtml/_dynduo/dyndu...

Have fun.

watmough• 18 years ago

Congratulations on picking a great language to learn with.

Lots of people have recommended the definitive guide, David Flannagan's book.

I recommend, also, John Resig's book, Pro JavaScript Techniques, and also take a look at his website.

If you'd like to learn some functional programming, and write some of the coolest code possible, take a look at Oliver Steele's website.

pg• 18 years ago

The way to become a good programmer is to have projects that drive you. So build stuff. You'll find you learn very fast when there is something specific you want to do and you don't know how. So you should read books, certainly, but don't just work your way through books.

It doesn't matter super much what language you learn initially. So if you have some friend who is an expert in another language, you might be better off learning that, then switching to Javascript once you know the basics of programming.

tel• 18 years ago

I'd reiterate that you it doesn't matter what language you learn first.

You wont really understand any language until you've learned a couple of others and are able to see programming from several perspectives.

oyejorge• 18 years ago

One of the most difficult parts of JavaScript and web 2.0 is getting things to work on all the different browsers. Install the most recent versions of the most widely used browsers: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Quirksmode.org has some really good compatibility tables as well: http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/compatibility.html

lyime• 18 years ago

Build a flash game in javascript.

wave• 18 years ago

This might help Best Practices in Javascript Library Design http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LKDImgRfrg

brlewis• 18 years ago

Has anybody here compared different JavaScript techniques for drag and drop? What works best?

kajecounterhack• 18 years ago

I hope you understand that while javascript has its uses, most web applications are built on server side scripting languages. Much to the chagrin of the hackers here at YC, I personally would recommend learning PHP or Python. Probably PHP though. (Cue Ruby fanboys and anti-php lynch mobs). Really, it is the place to start if you're interested in Web 2.0 application development. Javascript is a tool you can pick up later that allows you to do cool things with your site. But I mean, wouldn't you rather jump right into doing things right? Starting with javascript will end up being sort of like...taking a class in school; you have to learn a bunch of things first, figure out something to make, embed with HTML and toy around and in the end, do you even get anything functional? How bland is that?! Now, if you start with a server side scripting language, you get your "hello world" experience and you jump right in.

Just my 2 cents...

axod• 18 years ago

First of all, do NOT start by using a javascript library (prototype, jquery, etc). Learning a library isn't half as useful as learning the language.

So, get a copy of O'Reily Definitive guide, Start working through that. Watch the Douglas Crockford lectures from Yahoo.

Install firebug and start messing around.

"Hrm I've read about the arguments.callee property. Lets play with that for a few minutes and see how it works" etc etc

The main thing is just to explore, get down to the nuts and bolts, see how it all really works. Try things out, and see if they work or not.

albertcardona• 18 years ago

My very first language ever was javascript. I completed Thau's javascript tutorial and the advanced version (both at webmonkey.com), and from there I got a really nice start (without knowing it).

If you combine a simple introduction like that with plenty of exploration with Firebug, and have a strong motivation -like making a kick-ass webpage for yourself-, you are on your way,

miksago• 18 years ago

Ignore what others say about your interests, put your head down, do a bit of hard work (but mostly play,); get involved in communities (eg, your favourite javascript library's community), get recognised for your work, learn from the masters, but don't ask for answers, ask for tips.

That's all I could say, I'm 16, and currently working along side some very cool people. I've been in it about 3 years.

Prrometheus• 18 years ago

I just realized that I have about 10 years to do all the hacking I want, and then the current crop of 12-year-olds will hit the market and annihilate us old guys.

jsmcgd• 18 years ago

To become the 'best' Javascript programmer you'd probably need to know everything about Javascript. Also you'll need to know its limits. To know its limits you should probably learn about other things that aren't Javascript but closely related to it eg other programming languages, web browsers, HTML, DOM etc.

Good luck!

Let us know how it works out.

mixmax• 18 years ago

You're 12, you want to be the best javascript programmer ever, and you post on hacker news.

You're my hero...

jonnytran• 18 years ago

In addition to all those other things that people mentioned, write a JavaScript interpreter.

You can't truly master a language until you know it inside and out. Implementing the language is a great way to do that. That's how I learned ML and Haskell. That's how I'm learning Lisp.

supercrack• 18 years ago

i'm 15 and i want to become the geatest hacker ever for those who read this e-mail me at surescore@hotmail.com thanks

ps.can you give me some programs

1qaz• 18 years ago

(make sure you know HTML)(heres a good cheat sheet http://www.webmonkey.com/reference/HTML_Cheatsheet ) im 13, i know it. the best way is to learn it here http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/javascript/ go thru it all then think up ideas for scripts and try them.

these are wat i did (you may not know enof from that site) -a personal greeter- a form that lets people write thier name is a box clik a button and it displays a greeting w/ thier name included in it - a coin flip script.- that displays a RANDOM heads or tails alert -a dice roll script- that display a RANDOM number 1-6 -any of your ideas

Simple as that =] ___Jasello___

Ask Hackers: How to become the best JavaScript programmer? (q by 12yr old)

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