Letter From Human Rights Leaders Asking President Obama To Pardon Edward Snowden

https://pardonsnowden.org/news/delivery-letter

by dsr12 • 10 years ago

359 168 10 years ago

formula1• 10 years ago

Perhaps its just pessimism but there likely never be a pardon for Snowden. Once and if Snowden is pardoned, the military has now made it "acceptable" to comprimise secrets. Though Snowden is arguably in the moral right, if someone does this sort of thing for poor/naive reasons and if the knowledge is more sensitive (such as Hiraldo Rivera explaining exact locations and plans on a broadcast) there may be a much bigger problem.

I think the closest Snowden will likely get is an honorable burial in US or have a bill named after him. But I highly doubt either party will pardon him.

pvg19• 10 years ago

Snowden was not in the military and the secrets he lifted were from a civilian organization.

thret• 10 years ago

This is a very important distinction.

vidoc2• 10 years ago

Perhaps its just pessimism but there likely never be a pardon for Snowden.

Who knows, maybe one day some politician running for office or seeking a popularity boost may consider it if he feels that the domestic opinion is drastically in favor of a Snowden pardon. Though, while I am not quiet sure how reliable the polls i saw on the matter were, but they seemed to indicate a majority of Americans were hostile to a pardon.

Crossing fingers for this man that his situation rapidly finds a positive outcome! I'm generally not a big believer of the whole 'hero' concept but the tremendous life tradeoffs this man is bearing, not just to stand for his ideas and beliefs - but to defend privacy and freedoms - really inspire my profound respect. It also humbles me as I do realize I would never have that courage.

lkajsd• 10 years ago

Obama isn't going to pardon Snowden, of course he isn't. Maybe Putin will though.

sneak4• 10 years ago

I firmly believe he already has—does anyone believe that he would be alive today if not for the meticulous and persistent efforts of the FSB?

It's a strange sensation indeed, rooting for the success of the "other guys".

nsomaru• 10 years ago

I know nothing about American law, but why has the constant plea been for a pardon and not amnesty?

It seems like in the former case one would need to be convicted of something before one could be pardoned. Snowden hasn't been convicted of anything yet...

Although there is the caveat that amnesty at federal level would not provide immunity from prosecution by state courts, as far as I understand it.

IANAL.

farva• 10 years ago

Ford pardoned Nixon without him being convicted. Amnesty is a pardon given to a group of people, rather than an individual.

lettergram2• 10 years ago

I discussed this with a few friends. And it's really best if nothing is done with Snowden from the governments perspective.

If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that). If they try to get him to the US for a public trial, who knows what will happen. If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr. Similarly, if they kill him with a direct assassination he will be a martyr, and they'll be dramatically ruining their image. Finally, if they kill him in a covert way, no one will believe it and in all likelihood it will be widely believed it is the governments doing.

By leaving him in this limbo, the government can claim what ever they want about him without proving it. At the same time, Snowden has no more info to disclose, although he has a solid and growing cult following.

For the record, I signed this as soon as I heard about it and shared it with everyone I knew. I think it's important to be counted and try to share and convince others if your beliefs, if you believe it'll dramatically impact your future.

What Snowden did and what he stands for is the last chance to have any form of democracy or privacy. Unfortunately, it appears to have failed, but that doesn't mean you stop trying to improve things. Perhaps, the younger generation (millennials and below) will recognize what he did, as opposed to what the government is trying to spin.

yes_or_gnome• 10 years ago

What about the possibility that Snowden dies from a freak accident or suspicious circumstances while in exile? Either will look like a government coverup. It's probably better to get him home one way or the other - I'd prefer a pardon -, or you very quietly make sure that all his needs and wants are tended to.

eterm• 10 years ago

I agree, and I think right now the timing is really bad.

It is the wrong time to weaken the IC any further given how that would play in the "IC vs Incoming administration" showdown that seems to be squaring up.

"It's OK to share information and run to Russia" is not a good thing to pardon when you're trying to investigate whether people close to the incoming administration have shared information with Russia.

peteretep8• 10 years ago

Surprised they haven't back-channelled a suggestion he moves to a jurisdiction less hostile to the US, like Ecuador for example. They get all the benefits of the above while not needing to worry that FSB will break him or get something useful.

pvg19• 10 years ago

That is not something they worry about. They've long assumed everything Snowden took is in the hands of hostile intelligence services. Anything else would be nuts.

bayesian_horse17• 10 years ago

Assuming the FSB didn't recruit him before his defection to Russia.

If they didn't, and he stumbled "by accident" into Russia, they don't need to "break" him at all, having all the leverage they could possible want.

crdoconnor4• 10 years ago

Surprised they haven't back-channelled a suggestion he moves to a jurisdiction less hostile to the US, like Ecuador for example.

Moving him out of the country exposes him to risk. Look at what happened to Evo Morales.

pvg19• 10 years ago

If they try to get him to the US for a public trial

He'll likely get convicted. The US would be happy to put him on trial.

If they bring him home for a secret trial, the risk rioting or a martyr

Secret trial? Rioting? I think you're overestimating general support for Snowden and have some odd ideas about the way the justice system works.

zeroer• 10 years ago

Could go either way. If I were on the jury, it would hang. I'd be weeded out during jury selection, of course, but there are not a few people like me.

emsy• 10 years ago

If they pardon him that doesn't mean he will or has to go back to the US. Also your ""feelings"" argument can easily be refuted: A) There are proves that he did use the official channels first. B) This isn't even a moral but a legal concern. C) You can excuse participation in the Holocaust with it.

I see where you're coming from, but you can spin it either way. What I think they should to is to use the pardon to gain trust and create anonymous contact points so that whistleblowers will use the official channels first.

Swizec• 10 years ago

Lesson: only blow whistles if you plan to become popular. Make sure they're whistles that popular opinion likes amd supports.

Politics.

bayesian_horse17• 10 years ago

I'd be careful asserting "what he stands for". At the moment he is at the mercy of the Russian intelligence services and the Russian government, in a nation far more "flexible" about human rights and democracy. Let's just say: if they had a request for some particular information, or a message being delivered to his followers, he isn't exactly in a position to refuse.

On the other hand, we know that Russia is recruiting intelligence assets like him all over the western world. It is entirely possible Snowden was recruited by Russian operatives before his defection to Russia, maybe even before stealing the files.

pvg19• 10 years ago

He's a valuable Russian intelligence asset who suddenly runs off to Hong Kong to talk to journalists? That doesn't really make much sense.

sneak4• 10 years ago

It is my understanding that he was rid of all of the documents before he went to Russia. How could he serve them even if he wanted to?

I think you are somewhat out of touch with his own statements and circumstances.

atmosx• 10 years ago

If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings" (even if it's morally correct to do so, they can't have that).

You're missing an important point IMHO. If the NSA is an organisation that works on behalf of the US citizens then he is a hero and the US gov should give him a metal. Right before that, they need to create a sort of structure which allows these guys to express their concerns without being sidelined.

If the NSA is an organisation serving the government (or some other more sinister group of people) disregarding US Citizens then you're right.

The biggest reason I believe they will not pardon Snowden is to keep the sentiment among three-letter agency officials that he is a traitor because [reasons] and the government doesn't want to go against these guys because they hold the keys to a very dangerous infrastructure that I believe is developing an agenda (and has a mind) of it's own.

ps. I might totally off, that's just my take from what I see from far and beyond.

Philipp__3• 10 years ago

You really think NSA (or any other security secret service/organization) work for the citizens? I mean, they should, but you know...

e40• 10 years ago

Given Obama having just expanded the NSA's powers[1] just before leaving office, it would be out of character for him to pardon Snowden.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/obama...

sneak4• 10 years ago

Whether a program violates the 4th Amendment or not is not "feelings", it is an objective fact.

argonaut5• 10 years ago

This may be hard to believe on Hacker News, and you and I might think it's wrong, but most Americans do not like Snowden. They've done opinion polls and more than 60% of Americans have a negative opinion of Snowden. Very very few think he's a hero.

Politicians want him home for a public trial. But if there's a secret trial or he's assassinated, there will be outrage in certain circles (ACLU/journalists), but he won't be a huge martyr.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde...

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/edward-snowden-rasmussen-po...

chillwaves• 10 years ago

And I think this is ultimately why Obama will not pardon him, because they think it will hurt the democrats politically. Time and again, both sides pick politics over.. anything.

peteretep8• 10 years ago

I'm not sure there's as strong a correlation between current opinion of a public figure, and the degree to which their death becomes a cause célèbre.

lettergram2• 10 years ago

You only need a small minority to believe something. If they believe it loud enough they will create a ruckus.

Then the government will have to actually prove all the character assassination attempts. Even though there is no evidence they really have against him at this point. I mean, in terms of being a Russian spy, or an alcoholic or something.

Also, remember these are the same pollsters who had Hillary winning the election...

varjag• 10 years ago

There's a good chance Snowden will be extradited by Russia soon, to bolster Trump in his standoff with U.S. intelligence. Then the whole pardon debate is moot.

lucker• 10 years ago

If they pardon him, they say it's alright to release national secrets based on "feelings"

Ah, but the thing is, they built the domestic surveillance infrastructure based on "feelings" — after all, the real threat of terrorism is minor compared to all sorts of other dangers the resources could have been spent on.

And the idea that they really did it because of terrorism is pretty much the most charitable interpretation of why they did it — it is easy to devise darker ones.

If they don't pardon Snowden, then they are saying (yet again) that it is alright for the government to waste our tax money — in secret and in order to spy on us, no less — based on feelings.

AbrahamParangi• 10 years ago

I'm reminded of this article (posted here a few months ago)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-president-obama-wont-and-sho...

I found it to make a compelling case, if only because it offers less emotion and more citations than I've seen elsewhere on this topic.

RodericDay3• 10 years ago

if only because it offers less emotion and more citations

This is such a weird metric. "More citations" sounds like "more lines of code", and the problem with an emotional plea is not that it is emotional but that it often replaces logical ones.

the smidgen of his revelations about possibly unlawful domestic surveillance or collection against U.S. persons

If you think that's an accurate characterization then you really didn't need this article to push you over the edge.

pvg19• 10 years ago

In what ways do you feel this characterization is inaccurate?

Vosporos• 10 years ago

Even Snowden says to pardon Chelsea Manning… :/

yadabadabada2• 10 years ago

I signed it. Proud to be counted publicly. The oath of office that President Obama took demands that he pardon a whistleblower responsible for revealing massive violations of the Constition

The very concept of "setting an example" by not pardoning him is evil. Every case should be judged on its on merits and Snowden's case will be judged by history quite favorably.

Obama should have pardoned him and appointed him the NSA's Director of Compliance

Instead we have continued and increased violations of our rights as Americans.

Of course, the real problem is that Americans don't learn about principles, history, or civic duty in any serious way.

Most Americans don't really care if the government violates their rights because they don't really know what they are or why they're important. This can change quickly though, thanks to technology. I think the tide will turn soon.

Philipp__3• 10 years ago

Obama's administration was "setting an example" a bit too much, don't you think?! They got blood of many people on their hands. ( Like Aaron Swartz':( )

kahrkunne• 10 years ago

Swartz killed himself though. Unpopular opinion, but people need to stop acting like anybody but Swartz himself was responsible for his death. He wasn't even mistreated that bad, and he did knowingly break the law

eugeneionesco• 10 years ago

Never going to happen, Obama administration does not like people like Snowden or Manning.

dinkumthinkum• 10 years ago

Yeah, never going to happen, he would never pardon Manning .... oh wait ...

toyg• 10 years ago

Whether or not he gets pardoned, the fact is that you now officially have an American exiled for reasons of conscience, something that only non-democratic regimes have.

sneak4• 10 years ago

Also an Australian, being (illegally, according to the UN) indefinitely detained by proxy (US sealed indictment, and bogus Swedish arrest warrant, and illegal U.K. police action) on US orders.

Turns out our government can be some real shady motherfuckers if you air their dirty laundry.

They've even tortured Manning so hard she's tried to kill herself in prison, twice. (Obama publicly declared her guilty before trial.)

pvg19• 10 years ago

He left voluntarily.

emilsedgh• 10 years ago

His passport was invalidated involuntary.

chvid• 10 years ago

The sad thruth is that Obama is more likely to issue a pardon for Hillary Clinton than for Edward Snowden.

benevol2• 10 years ago

Obama is clearly pro-mass-surveillance [0] and certainly has been all the time.

So there is no way he will pardon Snowden (even if it's The Right Thing to do).

[0] Barely a week before he leaves office, U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration has authorized controversial new legislation that grants America’s 16 intelligence organizations access to raw communications data from the NSA’s surveillance efforts.

[...]

So information that was collected without a warrant—or indeed any involvement by a court at all—for foreign intelligence purposes with little to no privacy protections, can be accessed raw and unfiltered by domestic law enforcement agencies to prosecute Americans with no involvement in threats to national security.

Source: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/13/the-nsa-can-now-share-unfi...

devoply• 10 years ago

If he was willing to pardon Chelsea Manning, they should have written 1M signature petition for that instead. She has already served plenty of time. It would be good if he were to let her out before he goes. She's dying in there.

peteretep8• 10 years ago

Could you succinctly outline the case for pardoning Chelsea? My simplistic overview is that she leaked a bunch of somewhat interesting confidential information because she was pissed off with the people she was serving with. Sucks she's being made an example of, but that's presumably why these punitive sentences exist?

I see this as being in contrast with Snowden, whose revelations have (perhaps) led to politicians prioritising oversight of surveillance, and whose actions claimed to be motivated by an attempt to protect citizens' rights.

mtgx• 10 years ago

Definitely the worst of his "legacy". Although some could argue it's the fact that he brought U.S. into 8 active wars, while bombing Iraq, the war the U.S. supposedly "won", as much as ever.

maglavaitss• 10 years ago

That's "mr Nobel Peace Prize" alright.

skinnymuch2• 10 years ago

What are the 8 active wars? Genuinely curious. That seems like a lot.

joshmaker• 10 years ago

Considering Mike Pompeo, Trump's pick to head the CIA, has said "the proper outcome" for Snowden would be "a death sentence", things are unlikely to get better for Snowden in the next administration.

vidoc2• 10 years ago

Besides, I need to confess not being a big believer in clicktivism (just a personal opinion) and I would love to hear alternative suggestions to support Mr Snowden in a similarly lazy, albeit possibly a bit more useful way -> financially.

Google took me here: https://edwardsnowden.com/donate/

I'm sure helping his lawyers will help him indirectly but suggestions would be appreciated!

gerardnll• 10 years ago

WTF? The main image is 4.4MBytes?!! Who did that? It slows down Chrome making the website lag until it is loaded...

Jugurtha• 10 years ago

Here's my previous comment on an Ask HN wondering why the U.S. didn't get Snowden:

They could if they wanted to. Do they want to? If they get him to the U.S., they'd have to deal with him. I don't think they want to get him because it'd dramatically limit their options and possibly set a precedent with far-reaching consequences (is he a traitor? is he a hero? what does it mean to be either? is the public ready? how well would a pardon be received? if they pardon him, who else would they have to pardon? what does it mean to leak sensitive information? what does that mean for cases of espionage?) Why address the elephant in the room when you shouldn't have brought an elephant in the room in the first place? Just let the elephant where he is.

There are examples of lenient sentencing, though. Former U.S. Chief of Staff to the Vice President, "Scooter" Libby, was not pardoned after he had blown the cover of an intelligence officer (classified information) to a news outlet. He was disbarred, but not forced to exile. He was reinstated a few months ago, ten years after the events.

I think Snowden being in the spotlight cuts both ways: on the one hand he stays relevant, people don't forget about him, and it'd be a complication if anything were to happen to him..

On the other hand, it makes it much, much, harder to pardon him and to regain his former life. (It would be easier if it were done discreetly, but discretion is out of the question now.

Finally: this could also be one hell of an intelligence operation, placing Snowden just right inside a country that is clearly on the rise and representing a challenge for the U.S..

Heads: China. Tails: Russia. Of all the countries in the world. This would be an operation for the books.

megous• 10 years ago

Obama is the worst president for whistleblowers and leakers in american history, by far, having prosecuted more of them for espionage than all presidents before him combined. So this would be quite a surprise.

throw2016• 10 years ago

Obama is a massive disappointment. His clearly pro surveillance actions, support for the Syria war and needless belligerance towards Russia are a complete mystery coming from a democrat and given his public posturing as a 'reasonable person'.

Everytime you intervene and rock a boat there are severe consequences for tens of millions of people. It cannot be the kind of casual action we have been taking for decades. Basic human stuff. When it comes to refugees the 'empathy' dissipates quickly and we cannot even absorb hundreds. If these kind of actions was about sincerely caring about other people why would this be?

Given the kind of aggressive civic activism seen for Jan 20 one would conclude people just don't care about surveillance enough or we would see similar levels of activism. But it's also interesting to consider the levels of propaganda at play and the need to 'organize' and fund certain actions. There are enough special interests to do the former but not enough for the latter. For a average citizen even before you start organizing you will end up on dozens of lists and the security state will make your life difficult.

jgalt2122• 10 years ago

At first I was anti-Snowdon, (he's a traitor and deserter). Then I was pro-Snowdon (so much stuff he's opened our eyes to). And now once again, I am anti-Snowdon (there's just too much circumstantial evidence that he's assisting the Russians/Putin).

contras19703• 10 years ago

do you have any links?

jgalt2122• 10 years ago

this took about 30 seconds:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/edward-snowden-russian...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/22/edward-snowd...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/01/...

angry-hacker• 10 years ago

I'm not sure what options does he have? Russia is one of few superpowers that can protect him.

He could surrender and suffer horribly for decades or take his life...

burntrelish1273• 10 years ago

Snowden, Assange, Manning, Schwartz (RIP) ... Maybe Peltier.

netsec_burn• 10 years ago

There seem to be a lot of comments here saying that if Snowden is pardoned, it will set a precedent that it's okay to leak government secrets. This is actually a straw man because that's not addressing what Snowden did. Snowden tried to responsibility report the issues and he hit a wall. He realized that the option to handle it internally didn't exist, so he did not have any other choice. Pardoning Snowden is perfectly acceptable since reform is and was needed in those areas.

irishcoffee• 10 years ago

Snowden tried to responsibility report the issues and he hit a wall. He realized that the option to handle it internally didn't exist, so he did not have any other choice.

I uh... no that is just not even a little bit true.

peteretep8• 10 years ago

Help us understand then, and tell us what really happened

jeffbush2• 10 years ago

Vice published emails via FOIA that suggest he had made concerns known before leaking: https://news.vice.com/story/exclusive-snowden-tried-to-tell-... This suggests it is at least a little bit true

glitchdout2• 10 years ago

This is a blatant lie. But I guess this is the type of propaganda and JTRIG ops that we have to get used to.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowd...

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.
Not only did they go through multiple and all the proper internal channels and they failed, but more than that, it was turned against them. ... The inspector general was the one who gave their names to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution under the Espionage Act. And they were all targets of a federal criminal investigation, and Tom ended up being prosecuted — and it was for blowing the whistle.

William Binney describing the FBI raid on his house while he was in the shower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-3K3rkPRE&t=5m27s

and

Top NSA Watchdog Who Insisted Snowden Should Have Come to Him Receives Termination Notice for Retaliating Against a Whistleblower

http://www.pogo.org/blog/2016/12/intelligence-community-land...

JumpCrisscross2• 10 years ago

These petitions are silly. If you want to do something, commit to annoying your representatives. Every few months write or call in and remind them that you care about net neutrality, encryption and Edward Snowden as a symbol. Before elections ask them if they share your views on these issues. Write a letter to the editor or op ed in your local, hometown paper.

Political change takes work. If you can't be bothered more than than clicking a button online, you're sending a message to our elected representatives on how you prioritise issues.

benevol2• 10 years ago

These petitions are silly.

Yes, because they probably don't result in the desired decisions.

No, because they send a signal, letting everybody know "no, you're not the only one thinking things need to change urgently now".

If we feel alone, we tend to not take any action. If we are part of a group, we feel empowered and take action, sooner or later.

This is what such petitions may achieve.

JumpCrisscross2• 10 years ago

Petitions don't encourage organisation nor repetition, the two elements of successful political mobilisation. They're one offs by disjointed individuals of dubious commitment.

Worse, they promote complacency. ("I sure showed them by signing that petition!") Getting rid of disgruntled constituents by having them press an Internet button is a politician's dream.

Petitions--particularly written ones--brought forth by an organised body, or used to organise one, can be powerful. Internet petitions aren't those.

nickpsecurity• 10 years ago

I've seen hundreds of them. They didn't do shit. Whereas, people and companies doing what parent is claiming during SOPA battle led to it being beaten. It's just one example among many where pestering politicians worried about lost votes resulted in a little win for the people. Better to do what gets results occasionally than what doesn't do anything.

saosebastiao• 10 years ago

This probably won't work for many of the reasons mentioned here, but this petition isn't like other petitions that make their rounds on the internet. It's not persuasive because it is well reasoned and has a lot of signatures, it's persuasive because it will make Obama seem like a complete dick if it ever makes its way into a history book.

fullshark• 10 years ago

Yeah do that. I mean I won't do that cause I have stuff to do but you guys here should totally do that.

wavefunction2• 10 years ago

Why not do all of the above, especially since the petition is 'just clicking a button.'

Great points though.

fredgrott• 10 years ago

Seems somewhat naive in that you can only pardon those who have been convicted. More of a statement of how the common US American public understands how the US government works.

sparky_z• 10 years ago

Not remotely true. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...

colinbartlett• 10 years ago

In 1866, the Supreme Court ruled in Ex parte Garland that the pardon power "extends to every offence known to the law, and may be exercised at any time after its commission, either before legal proceedings are taken, or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment." [1]

1. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...

dllthomas• 10 years ago

Obama has decided he would rather lie about the pardon power than actually own any decision around pardons - both around Snowden ("I can't pardon before trial") and around DACA ("I can't pardon en masse"). There is clear precedent for both, historic and recent. I can't imagine he's unaware of this, I don't understand why he'd choose to lie so flagrantly, and as someone who has supported him a bit more than not it really makes me wonder what else he's been lying about.

prirun• 10 years ago

I think Snowden would be a fool to come back to the US, under any circumstances (and he's obviously no fool). Even if he is pardoned, they will find some other charge to make his life hell to set an example for others. He can never come back. I admire him for his convictions and thank him for his sacrifice so that we would have the truth.

Glyptodon• 10 years ago

I think it's bizarre he's supposedly considering pardoning Manning but not Snowden when only one of them was acting in a highly-contemplated civic-minded way.

Letter From Human Rights Leaders Asking President Obama To Pardon Edward Snowden

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