Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-

by andreapaiola • 10 years ago

47 56 10 years ago

github.com

tarancato• 10 years ago

You mean, remove opacity from the body...

Such a great idea, though.

vemv• 10 years ago

"Add an opacity CSS rule to the body"

dietrichepp2• 10 years ago

"Add opacity" -> opacity is an attribute, which is added to the body.

whafro• 10 years ago

The body element already has an opacity attribute, defaulted to 1. This explicitly defines it, initially, and decreases it over time.

gcr• 10 years ago

Is it legal to build self-destruct systems into contracted work? I'd be super wary of adding this...

drinchev• 10 years ago

It is illegal. If you already gave up your work and the client still needs to pay better be polite or in the end call a lawyer. Everything harmful to the client that you do is illegal including public shaming, destroying your work, etc.

Retric6• 10 years ago

Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation.

That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.

adekok• 10 years ago

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared.

It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request.

If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

dangrossman2• 10 years ago

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes.

A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes.

But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court.

You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their server to destroy/modify the site is not only a civil wrong on your part, but a crime under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

dogma11388• 10 years ago

You can't take claim of the IP/copyright no business/client would also sign that contract. You can claim ownership of the work until the payment is cleared but this is also tricky. If the website is hosted on the property of the client tampering with it will constitute a violation of most computer crime/misuse acts even if you hold valid credentials to access it.

The best thing to do is if you also operate the website (hosting it on a VPS which you pay for) as part of the contract just terminate the service in accordance to the SLA in the contract, if you do not host the website do not do anything to it just seek legal action.

brassic2• 10 years ago

It's not that simple.

A UK contractor was prosecuted many years ago for putting a time bomb in software he wrote and was never paid for.

It remained his software but it was running on their computer. When it ceased to function that was considered to be an authorised change to their system under the computer misuse act. And he was found guilty of a criminal offence.

Websites are a bit more of a grey area. Whose server is it? Who's paying for it? Who owns the domain? Whatever the answer to these questions, it's not clear how a judge would decide it.

Bottom line: unless your contract makes very clear that your software/website/whatever will cease to function on a particular date you could be looking at time in prison.

MaulingMonkey• 10 years ago

Is it legal to use your content without full payment? Review your contract with your attorney to ensure copyright only transfers upon full payment. (EDIT: And fix this for future contracts if for some silly reason it doesn't.)

Non-destructive trial/preview limitations of the content for unlicensed users sounds pretty legal. This isn't even obfuscated, as most DRM/License schemes will be.

kcbanner• 10 years ago

Sounds like a great way to improve your relationship with the client /s

dietrichepp2• 10 years ago

There's no benefit to having a good relationship with a bad client.

k__3• 10 years ago

Simply do factoring with your bills.

You get your money fast and if someone makes problems, the factoring company hsas them.

It'ss legal and doesn't need any code.

vetinari• 10 years ago

However, be aware that

1) factoring costs money - you won't get 100%; make sure you take care of that in your asking price,

2) make sure your contract does not prevent the transfer your receivables to third parties without the consent of the debtor. Yes, there are contracts like this, usually as a part of take it or leave it, there are others waiting at the door contracts.

k__3• 10 years ago

1) yes, your literally selling your risk.

TamDenholm• 10 years ago

I looked into this with my company, we got quotes from 3 factoring companies, all were an absolutely terrible deal. They were only willing to factor invoices on our good clients, they were unwilling to factor invoices for non-large company clients, (we have a lot of SME's as clients), they basically wanted to charge us a fortune and not take on any risk.

edanm2• 10 years ago

Anyone who would even think of doing this is:

1. Extremely unprofessional.

2. Is not taking on the right clients.

abz102• 10 years ago

or... 3. lives in the real world where there are seas of gray

Being picky about clients and being able to afford to sue those who don't pay is one of my many privileges. Not everyone can afford to do this.

edanm2• 10 years ago

This has nothing to do with suing clients. Taking some kind of revenge, in a way that's almost certainly actionable, is not really in a gray area - I don't think there is any situation in which it makes sense to do this.

As for "being picky about clients", my second point above is indeed aspirational, and I'm sure not everyone can afford to choose their clients. That's my point. You need to realize, as quickly as you can, that you're better off moving to the kinds of clients that don't have these issues.

I say this because many people honestly don't understand or believe that better clients exist, or at least don't internalize just how different it is to work for clients for whom these kinds of shenanigans are irrelevant. It really is a different world.

dsacco• 10 years ago

I know this is probably just made in good fun, but as a consultant who frequently works with startups[1], I recommend not doing something like this.

If you have delivered the final product to the client and they are not paying your invoice, your first step should be to try and cordially resolve the situation with a frank discussion about your expectations and mutual commitments, and nudged with references to the signed statement of work.

In my experience there are three types of clients. Clients who pay, clients who can't pay, and clients who won't pay. My recourse, and what I recommend to others, is as follows:

1. For new clients, require a 1/3 deposit before you begin the work, payable towards the final invoice. If the client cannot pay the first invoice, you know they will struggle to pay all of them and you haven't wasted your time.

2. Depending on how long the engagement is expected to run, require payments towards the final invoice every n weeks. This limits your exposure in case the client suddenly cannot or will not pay.

3. Ensure that your statements of work and other contracts are reviewed by a competent lawyer (as 'patio11 and 'tptacek would say, pretty much any lawyer as long as they are competent). This limits your liability and exposure in case you need to sue.

4. If there is a disagreement over terms after both parties have signed, or the client cannot pay, be charitable and attempt to resolve it in ways that are not antagonistic. Try to work out payment plans, or change the scope such that it is still affordable for the client. Accept that for certain situations, you will not recoup invoices (e.g. the client literally has no money for you). Steps 1 and 2 are designed to limit the impact for this latter case.

5. If the client will not pay, start with civil discussion first, then escalate by involving lawyers and strongly worded letters. Specifically, do not do anything passive aggressive. I would recommend revoking their license to use the software before you alter their public deployment and potentially cause them brand, reputational or business continuity damage.

6. Establish a high quality pipeline of qualified leads, especially from referrals, who you can consider more trustworthy with invoice payment. In my experience, I have never had a referral default on an invoice. Now, the vast majority of my business comes through referrals (there are many other benefits to a referral pipeline as well).

[1]: Read - clients who are statistically likely to default on their outstanding invoices.

EDIT: Typo...pipeline of leads from referrals, not lawyers :)

msandford• 10 years ago

The classic Mike Monteiro video is always relevant: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

One of the things people often advocate for is that all copyright/IP be owned by the consultant until paid in full. That way if the client stops paying prior to the work being done or doesn't pay the final invoice, etc you can make a very strong case that it's not just a civil matter, but a criminal one. That can be very motivating.

EDIT: That way if the client stops paying but continues to use the existing works, rather. If they stop paying and don't use the works then you'll need different clauses to still get paid there.

hkmurakami• 10 years ago

Yes - please don't be passive aggressive to your client by doing something like this.

Jason Lemkin has a good step by step plan if you're in a situation where you need to prod for payment.

mcs_• 10 years ago

Point 6 is very good.

Not in USA but in Italy web development is still "something exotic". I was there 2 years ago as a contractor of a big bank but out of the enterprise world, freelancers need to accept very uncommon agreements if they want to work. An incredible amount of works are "gentlemen agreements" and contractor are exposed.

I'm not defending this kind of "ideas", mostly because theoretically nothing should be introduced into the customer application without his/her approval. Just considering that "ideas like this" are probably happening because a more complex situation in background.

Kiro• 10 years ago

https://github.com/andreapaiola/F-D-/blob/master/fade.php

What is the point of making this a class rather than just a simple function?

andreapaiola3• 10 years ago

It's more powerful, obviously :D No, it's a joke. Well... It's OOP vs procedural in reality, right? If you want it you can PR... a new file fade-procedural.php

kijin• 10 years ago

It ticks the "object-oriented" box.

This is a joke project after all, I wouldn't mind seeing even more gratuitous complexity like FadePaidFactoryInterfaceFactory.

andreapaiola3• 10 years ago

I don't know: it's half fun and half serious... Really it's half-serious :D

hall_999• 10 years ago

When I was freelancing, all of my work resided on my own private servers. As soon as I received the final payment, it was transferered to the client.

I never had any issues.

BjoernKW• 10 years ago

I realise this might be somewhat tongue-in-cheek or just a way to vent on some real-life dealings with a client gone awry.

However, even just insinuating actually doing something like this in real life (or giving people ideas for that matter) is at least a tad dodgy if not downright unethical.

Someone having treated you badly in business (as in not having payed you for whatever reason) doesn't give you the moral (much less so the legal) right to treat them badly in return. That's what lawyers and courts are for (well, not treating others badly - though that might very well be part of the process - but to get recourse).

rhspeer• 10 years ago

It costs money & time to take people to court, so jerks will under pay you like $2000 because it's not worth the time and effort to go to court over it.

Dev is not like other services in the US where we can easily put leans on property.

So yea, own the hosting, take down their site if they don't pay.

I promise you every business owner has to deal with people that don't pay their bills and will understand.

Have a low tolerance for assholes, and if you ever get a lead on a client bad mouthing their previous developers about holding their project hostage, just run.

tomjen3• 10 years ago

You actually can - make it so that in the contract devs retain all copyrights until paid in full. Then you can use the DMCA, which is much cheaper and far easier than putting and enforcing a lean on a property.

That said, when you get that far in a sense you have already lost.

Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

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