An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2016/05/25/an-expat-has-time-to-reflect-now-that-the-partys-over/

by wallflower • 10 years ago

49 87 10 years ago

blogs.wsj.com

Numberwang3• 10 years ago

Interesting read. Good to see the police making sure laws are followed.

xiaoma• 10 years ago

The article clearly talked of how they aren't.

Though motorbike taxis are illegal, they are ubiquitous except for temporary crackdowns. Though the raves were against the rules, they were advertised publicly for four years before any action was taken and there will be more publicly advertised raves that police ignore next year.

Numberwang3• 10 years ago

I don't really understand your point. Not every speeder in the US are caught. Would you say the police doing temporary crackdowns is not a good thing?

We should celebrate the police here for doing a good job trying to uphold law and order. Perhaps if they had more resources they could go after the other cases of lawbreaking mentioned, not as part of the main story, in the article.

seanmcdirmid• 10 years ago

Electric bicycle deliveries are also illegal in many cities, but are tolerated because the new economy would completely collapse without them. Ride sharing was illegal for a long time until recently, but allowed to flourish until the laws caught up (well, beyond some selective prosecution). The sex industry is huge in China and mostly tolerated, or even partially run, by local police forces, and only disappears temporarily during central gov mandated crackdowns.

compil3r• 10 years ago

The underground party scene in China (especially in Shenzhen) is getting bigger and bigger. The party isn't over and raids like that are not something that party goers are not used to.

golergka• 10 years ago

Why did the author assumed that the party was illegal? The fact that police raided it doesn't mean that it as illegal; it just means that police decided to treat it like illegal.

Overall, this description feels like a very gentle slap on the wrist, compared to China's reputation; they probably got such a lax treatment — even given chairs to sit — exactly because all the expats. Nobody even got beaten by the police; I feel that a Chinese-only party would be treated much rougher.

tormeh• 10 years ago

Reminds me of Berlin parties in S-bahn stations or beneath bridges, usually around Warschauer. Those cannot possibly be legal, but nobody bothers to stop them.

sneak• 10 years ago

The police here are remarkably tolerant of most victimless crimes, thankfully.

pipio21• 10 years ago

I would not consider some action that has no victims to be a crime, but just going against the law. The law could be wrong itself.

For example, if you see a woman driving in Saudi Arabia, it goes against the law, but is not a crime.

Another example, in the US having a kid drinking wine goes against the law. As a kid in Spain and France I drunk a glass of wine in all meals, like the rest of my family and it is very healthy.

You get used to the rules in your country, but this does not mean that the laws are good. For instance a foreigner going into the US will probably consider barbaric the tradition of circumcising kids when they are born( I thought it myself), but locals rationalize and defend it(like locals in Saudi Arabia do with women driving).

A kid can drive a car but not drink a glass of wine? Utter non sense, but real.

roel_v• 10 years ago

This sort of raves violates all sorts of environmental and health and safety codes. It only takes one fire with a couple dead to make them all go away. Look, I used to like raves when I was younger, but it's silly to claim that anybody should be allowed to organize anything anywhere without regard for the neighbors, safety of visitors or work load of emergency services.

holdenc• 10 years ago

I'd say welcome to China, but let's be realistic. America offers plenty of opportunities to get locked up for 24 hours for breaking selectively enforced laws (protest anything lately?) and then perhaps even worse for resisting arrest.

HairyGing3r• 10 years ago

In Missouri you get fined for having mismatched blinds, and not having money to pay that fine will get you into court/ private prison.

kaybe• 10 years ago

Is that enforced at all? Regularly?

mac01021• 10 years ago

It makes sense that the "show me" state would prefer not to have any blinds at all.

kwhitefoot• 10 years ago

How does anything like that ever become law? Or are you just winding us up?

driverdan• 10 years ago

Citation needed

cocktailpeanuts• 10 years ago

So this is how false rumors spread.

According to the article someone mentioned below, it is true that something like this happens in one small town in Missouri. In fact it's so ridiculous that the New York Times wrote an article on it.

But it's not right to say this happens "in Missouri", that's as false as saying "In America you get fined for having mismatched blinds"

jessaustin• 10 years ago

Whenever you hear something batshit insane about Missouri, it's probably safe to assume it happened in St. Louis County. Since splitting from the City in 1877, but especially since the Depression, the County has been an ongoing experiment in racism, poor governance, and predatory enforcement. There is no square meter of the County that isn't already oppressed by so many cities and villages and districts and commissions that it couldn't be split up for additional oppression. For decades, the first response to any political dispute has been to create another tiny little village or district or whatever. It's no surprise to find that one of these tin-pot dictators has been inspired to send people to jail for landscaping he doesn't like.

I'm not saying that we don't have problems in the rest of the state, but somehow we generally avoid reports like the following:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/...

(I don't feel about disclaiming St. Louis County: just ask them if they'd like to be associated with us hillbillies in the Ozarks.)

JumpCrisscross• 10 years ago

"He described having to watch anti-drug PowerPoint presentations and eat tasteless porridge. His employer, which runs an expat website, was told that he was detained. While it was embarrassing for him, he was not fired. Most importantly, he wasn’t deported. 'I wasn’t even fined,' he said. Since then, our normal expat lives have resumed."

We could learn something about drug-law enforcement from China.

jdminhbg• 10 years ago

Maybe not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akmal_Shaikh

walrus01• 10 years ago

The US military had already perfected boredom-torture by PowerPoint to the level of a high art form.

Paul_S• 10 years ago

What is ambiguous about drugs being illegal in almost every country on the planet (with a handful of exceptions)? Just because the police doesn't catch all the murderers doesn't make murder legal. That's crazy logic.

pyre• 10 years ago

The ambiguous part is the "X is illegal, but everyone openly does X all of the time, and the police don't seem to care... until they do" way of doing things. This applies to everything from the "unlicensed gathering" to the drug use to the (seemingly) inconsistent punishment for the drug use.

richardwhiuk• 10 years ago

Probably different drugs used - not necessarily inconsistent or arbitrary.

elcct• 10 years ago

You are comparing apples to oranges

aianus• 10 years ago

Possession of drugs is illegal in almost every country, but possessing various drug metabolites in your urine is only a crime in a few, extremist countries.

partycoder2• 10 years ago

And how is this relevant in any way?

chvid• 10 years ago

If you just read the headline and not the article, then maybe the article is about the really bad recession that is going on in China right now (wellknown to all readers of HN). And how the expats caught there must "reflect" now that the party's over ...

partycoder2• 10 years ago

Can you explain how I can infer that by reading the article alone? It was about people being detained at an illegal party.

coldtea• 10 years ago

Relevant to what? Your specific interests?

Here's how social bookmarking sites work, for those confused: people post stuff, and other people vote on them. If it gets lots of votes, it's put in the first page, and it's de facto relevant to the site member's interests...

hughperkins• 10 years ago

Im not sure i understand why this is a big deal. As the guy said, it was designed to send a message. As far as drugs, youd have to be insane to do drugs in china. The laws on drugs are really harsh. As for the reason, presumably the organizer hadnt paid the right bribes.

ctvo• 10 years ago

The issue is laws in China are arbitrarily enforced, making it easier to abuse power. Casual reading of this felt like the organizers were getting too successful and failed to pay the proper people. This was a message to them, not the partygoers. Next time pay us and we won't harass your guests.

jseliger• 10 years ago

The US is obviously somewhat better at non-arbitrary enforcement than China, but Three Felonies a Day ought to be mandatory reading for Americans: http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/.... Virtually everyone is guilty of something if someone wants to look hard enough.

eecc• 10 years ago

The bribe wasn't enough

keerthiko3• 10 years ago

Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"? American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in America.

dhimes2• 10 years ago

I think it depends on your reference. With reference to your home country, you are an expat. Referring to your new home, you are an immigrant.

keerthiko3• 10 years ago

I don't think that's the usage here at all. The author is talking the entire time from within China and the perspective of culture within China, and refers to himself and his fellow foreigners as expats. By your description he should be using the term immigrant, since he isn't writing the article from the perspective of American/European soil.

madaxe_again4• 10 years ago

No, you're an emigrant with reference to your "home country". But I suppose that sounds too much like immigrant, which has become an epithet.

madaxe_again4• 10 years ago

It's the same in the UK. Brits living and working in Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. self-identify as expats. Tell them they're immigrants, and you'll get a violent response.

Honestly, I don't get the distinction.

GarrisonPrime• 10 years ago

An expat remains a citizen of their origin country, or otherwise makes a temporary move. An immigrant becomes a citizen of their destination country, or otherwise makes a permanent move.

GoToRO• 10 years ago

for me you are an expat if you are 1-2 years in one country, and then another, and then another. You follow the business with no intention to settle in one country.

mc324• 10 years ago

Expat is typically someone who is sent to work for a company's foreign offices/overseas offices and who will return to their home country after their "tour" is over. I.e. their residency depends on their company's sponsorship --the company you work for is doing all the paperwork and paying all incidental costs for you.

An immigrant is someone who moves overseas or to a foreign country on their own accord without the help of a company. You're getting visas and residency on your own.

So for example, a Kiwi working on the production lines in Toyota city is likely an immigrant. A Kiwi manager in finance in Toyoda city is likely an ex-pat. It's also likely these two don't run in the same circles.

dhimes2• 10 years ago

That's an interesting use (I've had friends use it too) but not necessarily by definition. Websters has two versions. The first has two definitions: (1)(Vb) banish; exile (2) (vb) to withdraw oneself from residence in or allegiance to one's native country.

They indicate that it can be a noun, but without further definition.

Note the implication that it's not voluntary, or at least under duress (a la Snowden), and not necessarily with the intent of returning.

Second version is an adjective, meaning "living in a foreign land."

dalke8• 10 years ago

Your definition is not correct, or at least it's incomplete.

There are many retirees who call themselves an "expat", such as those at http://money.cnn.com/gallery/retirement/2014/10/14/expat-ret... .

Arthur C. Clarke was a British expat in Sri Lanka. He was not sent there by a company.

Here's the owner of a company which hires Mexican agricultural workers for 10 months of the year - http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-guest-worker-20130331-dt... :

He spends $1,000 per worker for visas, consulate fees and transportation to North Carolina. He's required to pay for their housing, and he estimates he has spent more than $80,000 building a house on his property, plus $36,000 to buy a mobile home and $5,000 a year to rent an apartment for the 48 workers he employs during the growing season. The government makes him pay them $9.68 an hour, which is about one-third higher than the minimum wage in the state, and he spends thousands of dollars on workers' compensation insurance.

Oddly, people rarely call those Mexican's "ex-pats." The only difference from your definition is that they work outside, and not in an office, no?

If so, isn't that the sort of socioeconomic class discrimination that keerthiko pointed out?

tsm• 10 years ago

As a former expat, my understanding of the distinction is that expats realize they're temporarily in the foreign country, and are not consciously working to "go native". Immigrants believe that they've moved for good, and are more likely than not to, for example, hope that their children are a better cultural fit with the host country than the parents were.

dalke8• 10 years ago

Do you consider temporary agricultural workers from Mexico to be expats?

bjourne• 10 years ago

There are many Americans and British in Sweden who have settled and married Swedish people and call themselves expats. Really seems like keerthiko has a good point about the word expat just being a fancier word for immigrant.

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u2• 10 years ago

Interesting, I didn't know there's a negative connotation to the term. I thought generally the difference between an expat and an immigrant is that the former intends to return at some point, while the latter intends to settle permanently.

An expat could be a migrant worker, but not necessarily. For instance, one could go to a foreign country for university, and then decides to stay after graduation. He'd probably have to find a job, yes, but I wouldn't call him a migrant worker because he didn't emigrate for employment reasons.

Obviously, words are imprecise and there are overlaps, though this is the first time I've heard that expat could have a negative association.

dalke8• 10 years ago

Do you call a Mexican who comes into the US for 10 months under an agricultural work visa an expat?

If so, you are one of the very few. People don't usually talk about, say, "Mexican ex-pats in the Central Valley", even to describe those who are planning to return to their family back home, and sending money home to support that family.

ta_donk_gt3• 10 years ago

Most of the usage of "expat" that I have seen has been as a way to differentiate between living in another country while remaining primarily a U.S. citizen (and still paying U.S. taxes, etc.) vs. renouncing your U.S. citizenship and leaving forever. The largest segment of people I see are retirees collecting U.S. social security and living abroad somewhere with nicer weather and a modest cost of living. Plenty of younger people seeking to make a living in another country as well, but again, always with a U.S. citizen mindset, not as someone assimilating into the foreign culture.

Regarding the "anti-immigrant" sentiment, this has nothing to do with things like using the term expat instead of immigrant. As much as everyone wants to demonize and vilify, it is probably best to actually understand where these feelings are coming from. It comes from the wage-lowering and job loss that is associated with immigration, and those feeling build up over time. No matter which side of the aisle you fall on, the data is clear, less immigration leads to lower unemployment and higher wages within a region, and more immigration leads to the opposite. The tradeoff is that growth is more difficult and limited with less immigration.

In theory, we try to find the right balance between growth and standard of living for the existing population. In practice, however, only the people at the top have control of the politicians, and that balance will continue to slide towards lower labor costs.

Things are so polarized in this country, and it has become standard to label anyone we disagree with as some sort of "*ist", in order to marginalize them and prevent further discussion on the topic. No matter the issue, when a group feels strongly that they are on the receiving end of unfair behavior, many times there are actual justifiable underlying issues.

dalke8• 10 years ago

You do realize that most US citizens who permanently live outside of the US do not give up their U.S. citizenship. Only a small number renunciations - a few thousand - occur each year. Renunciation has never been a part of the discussion over the classism in the term "expat".

Expats are immigrants, so if more immigration leads to higher unemployment then more expats leads to higher unemployment.

contingencies• 10 years ago

Local police often only act on request from Beijing, in the spirit of: "we have a new national crackdown on <subject X>; go arrest some people". We have a saying here 山高皇帝远 ("the mountains are high and the emperor is far").

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u2• 10 years ago

OT: I'd learned the idiom as 天高皇帝遠; didn't know there are variations.

cloudjacker• 10 years ago

So the 90s are just reaching Shenzhen?

hkon• 10 years ago

I don't get the point of this article. Chinas has police and they do a good job, is that it?

robocat• 10 years ago

An expat in British English generally means a British or similar professional person who is temporarily (estar) working in a country, but expects to return home (maybe their whole working life until retirement). It implies you identify yourself with your birth country.

An immigrant is someone who has permanently (ser) moved - who now defines their identity as being from their new county.

That said, there is a nice article on The Guardian (a socialist UK newspaper) which agrees with the racial bias: https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-de...

An expat in American English can now mean someone who has moved to a country e.g. I heard a retired couple call their mostly American community "expats" in Mexico.

It definitely has overtones of a white professional job. The meaning is obviously in the process of changing, and has country specific divergences (home country, and away country).

It is a loaded term of group identity, so yes, it will exclude some people with bias.

An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

Related Stories