Amazon's express delivery service rattles Paris authorities

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jun/20/amazon-prime-now-express-delivery-service-france-paris?CMP=twt_gu

by mantesso • 10 years ago

40 99 10 years ago

delecti• 10 years ago

I'm always amused by the different default positions that different legal systems take. In America the default position would be (outside of certain highly regulated industries like drugs/medical) "let them do what they want unless a problem arises". But it seems the French approach is reversed, and they take it as a foregone conclusion to impose regulation up front.

I'm sure someone more in favor of the French approach could describe it in more favorable terms, but to my American sensibilities it seems almost totalitarian.

Angostura2• 10 years ago

You could argue that the French position: that the service could upset the French capital’s “commercial equilibrium”" shows a common-sense appreciation of the advantages of living in a neighbourhood where the is a good mixture of local shops and an attempt to preserve the benefits of this system. I'm sure that living in such neighbourhoods has all kinds of quality-of-life benefits in terms of communal life, neighbourhood cohesion and mental wellbeing that a strictly profit-driven approach doesn't recognise.

rm_-rf_slash• 10 years ago

Very much agreed. Americans have a nasty habit of valuing everything in dollar terms, especially when such things cannot be valued in such a way. What is the dollar value of clean air, friendly neighbors, and social cohesion? Sure you could factor things like physical health, but that never paints a full picture.

fennecfoxen• 10 years ago

In Europe they used to have kings and nobles in charge of entire swaths of the nation's production. As a minor counterbalance they'd have alternative power centers in the form of a city's guilds who would own the rights to do certain types of business in the city. The French Revolution may have swept away the nobles, but the general structure of an economy run by the other various entrenched interests remains, and feel that they have a right to the work and customers, treating said customers like property.

To this add strong nationalism and the fact that Amazon is un-French (and the French have few problems strongarming their citizens to be more French: see the French-language TV/radio content quotas).

The US has seen a few of the attitudes (see: any food truck dispute) but never really had the same types of power structures ... with the exception of the Depression-era National Recovery Administration (quickly deemed unconstitutional by 9 out of 9 Supreme Court justices).

SixSigma• 10 years ago

Let's not forget there is probably some (plenty?) of anti-American feeling after France declined to join BUsh's coalition

"About 40 percent of Americans tell pollsters they favor boycotting French products"

Including the wonderful Freedom Fries by misunderstanding of what the french meant in french fries.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-boycotting-w...

mknocker• 10 years ago

American approach is more 'trial and error' while French education system is more oriented toward demonstrating that something is good or not. Hence, when they see something new coming up they want to make sure that this won't interfere the current state of things. Both approaches are good, just different.

CaptainZapp• 10 years ago

Here's an example from a different field. Regulation of checmicals.

In Europe the regulatory framework is called REACH (Registration, Evaluation and Authorization of Chemicals), while the US uses a regulatory framework called TSCA (Toxic Substances Control Act).

There is a major difference:

(from http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-07-825) :

  REACH requires companies to develop information on chemicals' effects on human health and the environment, while TSCA does not require companies to develop such information absent EPA rule-making requiring them to do so. While TSCA does not require companies to develop information on chemicals before they enter commerce (new chemicals), companies are required to provide EPA any information that may already exist on a chemical's impact on human health or the environment. Companies do not have to develop information on the health or environmental impacts of chemicals already in commerce (existing chemicals) unless EPA formally promulgates a rule requiring them to do so.

So, simplified: In Eurpe a company must provide proof that a chemical compound is not harmful, while in the US a compound is considered legal as long its harm can't be proven.

While the US approach is certainly better for commerce I very much prefer the European approach. I consider the general health of the population much more important than the money that can be made by private companies.

And I think the example pretty nicely demonstrates the difference in attitude between the continents.

JumpCrisscross• 10 years ago

I consider the general health of the population much more important than the money that can be made by private companies.

There's a feedback loop in the cost of innovation. Better medicines, fertilisers, preservatives, insulators, et cetera have increased both the health of the populace and wealth of their creators. Ceteris paribus, in a world with more innovative potential than downside, the less cautious society will outcompete the more cautious one.

tropo7• 10 years ago

This works out nicely for Europe, with the USA being the guinea pig. I could imagine Europe opposing any change to the US law. The USA tries things out, and Europe reaps the benefits.

Tepix• 10 years ago

France is in trouble. They badly need reforms to be able to compete but they are unwilling to let go of their hard earned amenities.

adventured2• 10 years ago

They're definitely in deep economic trouble. The French economy hasn't expanded in real terms in about two decades, not since 1995 or so. That can only go on for so long until the mounting problems begin to drown you.

And then there's this:

"France’s unemployment rate rose 1.1 percent in the month of February, pushing jobless numbers to a record 3.591 million people, the Labour Ministry said Thursday."

http://www.france24.com/en/20160324-french-unemployment-hits...

tomglynch• 10 years ago

How did Paris handle Uber?

lostcolony• 10 years ago

From the article - 'The activities of another multinational offering quick and convenient services – the car hire app Uber – has also raised the hackles of authorities in Paris in recent months. The company has faced fines, legal challenges and its drivers physical violence since it began operating in the city in 2012.'

pyrale3• 10 years ago

Uber's legal activities are still running. They're having a fair success from what I know.

Uber's illegal activities have been challenged in court and closed. The reason for the particular way it happened is mostly that the company tried to bully its way through regulation by ignoring it like it did in some US cities. The police then decided to search of french Uber executives' homes, and they came to their minds quite fast afterwards.

mnx6• 10 years ago

This sounds to me like they are saying "Their business model is more efficient, and therefore it will be hard to compete with it, so let's ban it instead".

pauletienney17• 10 years ago

It is a part of the reflexion but not the whole. Everything is not about business.

mnx6• 10 years ago

Sure. But this really comes off to me as a self-interested move by the people who have the time, and money to shop in expensive local shops, and want their existence to be subsidised by those who would prefer to save time & money by choosing Amazon, but will be forced not to. I can get restrictions to business sometimes, this just does not seem at all justified.

elthran• 10 years ago

Yeah, seems to be the general French modus operandi

toyg5• 10 years ago

Well, it's a respectable point of view. Efficiency is not the be-all-end-all of life, or we'd have gas chambers instead of hospices.

mnx6• 10 years ago

Seriously? You have a fair point, but did you really not have a more subtle way to phrase it?

pauletienney17• 10 years ago

As a Parisien, I can give you my humble opinion. I totally like Amazon move, I am sure it can be convenient and save me ton of time BUT I will never trade this time for the liveliness of my neighborhood.

I love having a walk from my flat, go to the butcher and my vegetable seller. I like it because I can see the products, because it creates a sense of community in the neighborhood, because I know the butcher and he knows me.

Performance, convenience and business is a part of my life but it will never be my whole life.

Btw, I would be very interested by different cultural point of view on this whole story.

insertnickname8• 10 years ago

If that's what you prefer, that's perfectly fine. If other people prefer to shop with Amazon, that's also perfectly fine. Let the market decide rather than government bureaucrats.

pauletienney17• 10 years ago

I totally agree it is fine to prefer either solution. However I disagree with your proposition about "market" vs "bureaucrats". I think (imho) business logic and free market are not efficient enough to guarantee quality of life.

chii• 10 years ago

Or the existance of the super efficient mechanism will kill the inefficient one, and hence, those who prefered the local butcher/grocer will not get their preference served.

toyg5• 10 years ago

"Government bureaucrats" are democratically elected, so everyone actually gets a say in their decisions; whereas "the market" is just "people with money". So when you say "let the market decide" you're actually saying "let people with money decide". That might not be the optimal approach in all things.

pyrale3• 10 years ago

Being from Paris too, there is a huge boom in delivery services. While I'm fine with this, the negative impact on traffic safety, fluidity, the pollution etc. are currently not priced in, and it's a huge problem.

So while I'm not really agreeing with the reasons quoted by the mayor, I could definitely see a severe tax on this kind of business, because I'm sick of getting almost flattened by scooters driving on sidewalks.

btbuildem• 10 years ago

Thats why we have different countries, with different cultures. You can stay in America with your market, he can stay in France with his local community.

jssjdhfuriu• 10 years ago

I think this comment about sums up why Europe/France is no longer a force in the emerging powers of the world and has mostly been stagnant in recent memory.

People have become content in their ways and are no longer hungry for improvement/change.

mfoy_• 10 years ago

To be fair, what's wrong with valuing community over economic growth? If the country has enough to support a high quality of life, why sacrifice principles and values for more?

Economic growth is not the be all end all of human existence.

toyg5• 10 years ago

There are many different ways to be "a force". France is still very much an active force in military terms, well above "rising tigers" like India or China in terms of deployment abroad and engagement in crisis scenarios. Their economy might be slightly stagnant, but they are still very, very rich in aggregate.

Just because they don't agree with English-speaking media and their vision of the world, it does not mean they are not hungry for change. They are so hungry for change, in fact, that they've been rioting for weeks. What they are not hungry for, probably, is the obsession for worldly riches and conservative consumption-driven lifestyle that Asian and American interests keep pushing. That might not be a bad thing.

Brakenshire2• 10 years ago

Honestly, what nonsense. More like, the reason why the French obesity rate is 17%, compared to 23% in the UK, and 34% in the US. These are some of the factors which maintain health - to do exercise as part of your daily routine, and to be able to buy good quality food and cook it yourself. Then, to have enough time to spend with friends and family, and to have access when necessary to good quality healthcare.

It is valuable to have a culture which makes these fundamental requirements accessible and normal. There is no point in squeezing out every short term marginal improvement in economic efficiency regardless of the health of the people who are supposed to be reaping the economic rewards.

ionised• 10 years ago

Not everybody wants to live in a consumer plantation with ever-widening income inequality and corporate domination of their political system.

EliRivers• 10 years ago

France is one of perhaps four countries in the world capable of projecting power (i.e. blowing things up and running around shooting at people) globally for a sustained operational period. The ability to deliver violence is still what buys you a seat at the top table, and France is in the top five.

arebop• 10 years ago

I live in San Francisco, and I think these delivery services are great for all the things I do not enjoy buying: soap, paper towels, socks, bicycle pump. Having those things delivered gives me more time to peruse the cheese shop, the farmer's market, the butcher shop, and the bakery. Also sometimes, like holidays, I find I need some ingredient and it's better to have it delivered than to quiesce all my cooking activity, roundtrip to the store, and resume without breaking my timeline.

x5n14• 10 years ago

I think this is the biggest selling point of online merchants. People are so rushed for time, i.e. jobs take most of their day and leave them exhausted, they don't want to make unnecessary errands for things that they know they want. They want to press a button and be done with it. That's why big department stores are screwed they waste so much of your time making you walk all over the place in hopes that you will make additional purchases.

adrianN3• 10 years ago

Paris city hall has also said it will look out for unwanted side-effects of the operation, including increased traffic and pollution.

Maybe the service reduces traffic and pollution? If people stay at home and order groceries instead of taking their cars to the supermarket you probably reduce traffic. One delivery truck on an optimized route should drive fewer km than individual cars.

pauletienney17• 10 years ago

Just to let you know, nobody drive a car in Paris to go do groceries. Everything is done walking around our flat or on our way.

santialbo• 10 years ago

It is quite rare in big european cities that people take their cars (if they have any) to the supermarket.

adrianN3• 10 years ago

I live in Berlin and I know several people who go to the supermarket by car. Most supermarkets also have nonempty parking lots which indicates that at least some people use their car for shopping.

yardie• 10 years ago

Then they will have contributed very little. Literally, every major grocer in the city does delivery now. They also don't come from out in the suburbs. The neighbourhood store has their own fleet and can get it to you the same day within a few hours of placing the order.

adrianN3• 10 years ago

If the competition already provides delivery, why ban Amazon from doing it as well?

nolepointer• 10 years ago

I'm not really familiar with the service, but from where does Amazon get the groceries they deliver? Could they not enter into an agreement with Parisian stores to deliver their products?

yawaramin• 10 years ago

The central Parisians seem quite content to suppress economic activity and job creation while the suburbs churn with joblessness, poverty and discontent.

kafkaesq• 10 years ago

All I can say is -- if Amazon wants to plaster their slogans everywhere imaginable (above doorways at their facility; and literally on the backs of their workers - going by the photo midway down the article), they can at least have the decency to do so in the native language.

semprepat34• 10 years ago

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Amazon's express delivery service rattles Paris authorities

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