Why European Children Are Quieter

http://acculturated.com/european-children/

by ohjeez • 10 years ago

136 123 10 years ago

acculturated.com

carsongross• 10 years ago

I had always assumed it was the beatings

http://lizgarrigan.tumblr.com/post/17712385923/french-childr...

jpatokal2• 10 years ago

Physical beatings, not so much, but difference in attitude, definitely. To boldly caricature, in America it's all about how every child is a special snowflake whose antics must not just be tolerated but encouraged; while in "Europe" (France), children in adult spaces like restaurants must conform to adult rules or be punished.

Edit: Hmm, that came off snarkier than I intended. I didn't intend to imply that either approach is necessarily superior, just that surely there's a happy medium somewhere between the two extremes.

threesixandnine2• 10 years ago

It's getting like this in Europe as well. Little snowflakes. Now at least one adult has to take to and pick up kids from school until 11 or 12 years old where I am from. When I was 7 years old and started first grade we went to school which was 2km away and came home alone from the first day.

Currently we are all raising kids that will not be ready for the world in 10-20 years. I am sure of that. Kids from other parts of the world will have the advantage in pretty much all fields.

DanBC2• 10 years ago

in America it's all about how every child is a special snowflake whose antics must not just be tolerated but encouraged

America has a sizable population who think that beating your children is okay. That's not limited to the home - 31 states have abolished corporal punishment in schools but it's still permitted in 19 other states. Corporal punishment is widespread in Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi schools. Corporal punishment is routine in some schools in Georgia, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas.

It's only in 2011 that parents had the right to prevent their children being hit at school.

(This is all public schools. Hitting children in private schools is legal in all but 2 states.)

Attempts to ban hitting children in US schools usually fail, although attempts to reintroduce hitting children in schools also fail.

In the places where hitting children is legal the rates of violence against children is possibly rising, partly because of efforts to reduce use of suspension and expulsion.

And this isn't just children: 18 and 19 year olds attending school are sometimes hit.

dempseye• 10 years ago

Hitting your children is illegal in Germany, though. That's where this woman is living.

Oletros7• 10 years ago

I think that in almost every European country, beating the kids is ilegal

analog31• 10 years ago

I'd like to know if there are regional differences even in the US. An analogous situation is restaurants. I live in the Midwest, and I've noticed that restaurants are a lot louder here than what I've encountered in Europe -- even when there are no children around.

tmnvix2• 10 years ago

I know that it's an old stereotype, but in my experience it's true - Americans talk very loudly. I'd really like to know why.

larrymcp• 10 years ago

I'm American, and I sometimes ask myself that too: I catch myself talking loudly and I have no earthly idea why. Probably because that's what everyone else is doing!

learc83• 10 years ago

In sociolinguistics there is a concept called complementary schismogenesis that describes a mechanism that can result in exaggerated differences in conversational style. There is tendency for people with different conversational styles to attempt to pull the conversation towards their style, and when multiple participants do this, the differences become increasingly exaggerated.

For instance, if an American who talks slightly louder than average converses with a European, he may start talking even louder to try to get the European to speak up a bit. The European will then talk even quieter to prompt the American to follow. Then the American will get louder, and the cycle will continue.

This is can explain how a minor difference in average actual volume can lead to a major perceived difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schismogenesis#Sociolinguistic...

seanmcdirmid2• 10 years ago

Oh man oh man, I'm American, and nothing can compare to a restaurant in China....70 db, 80 db? Yep. Kid playing with their iPad on full volume at the table next to you? Not a problem. Cell phone ringers are set to max volume because...everywhere is just so loud. And there seems to be no problem with jack hammer/dump truck construction outside my window at 2AM in the morning.

First vs. third world problems, I guess.

GijsjanB• 10 years ago

China is a third world country?

sdm2• 10 years ago

Ummm... China is not a third world country. It was a second world country. In fact the whole point of the definition of first/second/third world revolves around China, the USSR, and their allies being the second world.

What you mean to say is China is a developing country. Please leave the old out dated and irrelevant cold war propaganda terminology in the past where it belongs. Remember, Switzerland and Sweden are both canonical examples of third world countries: they were allied with neither the UK/US block or the China/USSR block. Likewise, just because a country is a first world country doesn't mean it's rich -- some of the poorest countries in the world are first world countries, like Namibia.

jeevand• 10 years ago

As an immigrant who lived in south(NC), midwest(Colorado) & west(CA), each of the regions are very unique. In south most people greet you & nod at strangers while walking on streets. I got used to this habit & in midwest/west when i nod, many times it will be met with blank stares. Some of my friends who nodded out of practice in India got into hilarious situations where people became suspicious. Overall my impression is Americans of all ages/sex are very outgoing (except for young women who probably are afraid of getting unwanted attention) when compared to people in Europe/India/China.

bioinformatics• 10 years ago

I doubt most Italian mothers would be too different from mine that yelled all the time when I was a kid.

ivanhoe• 10 years ago

When Americans say Europe they usually mean Western Europe, which is not really how the rest of the continent is. For instance in Mediterranean or Balkan people (and kids) are anything but quiet.

stephenhuey• 10 years ago

Funny you say this, because a little over a year ago an older lady in Sarajevo came over to our table to complain how loud we were (2 Australians and an American).

JBReefer• 10 years ago

Ah yes, the famously quiet and reserved Italians and Greeks. Truly a reserved region /s

threesixandnine2• 10 years ago

I am living in the Balkans for the last four years and my personal experience is that kids here are generally quiet. Very similar to Western Europe. (Zagreb - Croatia, Belgrade and Novi Sad - Serbia).

Before coming here I visited and lived in many European countries and Italians for sure are the loudest in public settings (restaurants for example) - especially when there are many of them together. From my experience from Greek Islands Englishmen are the loudest of all - at home in England they are quiet and polite though . Germans are the quietest ones when traveling to other countries but loud at home sometimes.

All this is totally my subjective point of view of course.

coldtea12• 10 years ago

Compared to the states, Mediterranean/Balkan kids are saints...

sgdesign• 10 years ago

It's really hard to give much credit to an article talking about "Europeans" and "Americans" as if these were homogeneous groups.

coldtea12• 10 years ago

Here are a few hints for reading these things:

1) Nothing is homogeneous. Even a single static object is not 100% the same now compared to how it was 10 days ago. But in order to make any observation, one has to generalize to the point that has statistical significance.

2) Despite saying Europeans and Americans such articles don't mean ALL Europeans and ALL Americans. For Europeans they mostly mean Western Europe: Germany, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc. For Americans they mostly mean the stereotypical middle class suburban American, not a Manhattanite yuppie, nor some Idaho farmer, or "white trash".

3) The idea is not to see if the article's observations hold 100%, but whether they hold more often than not.

pif2• 10 years ago

For Europeans they mostly mean Western Europe:

Western Europe includes Italy, Spain, Portugal and UK, too. As soon as I read the title, I thought to children in my country (Italy) and I saw the enormous gap.

rakoo• 10 years ago

For Europeans they mostly mean Western Europe

It's much more accurate to divide Europe between the Northern, Germanic (Germany, UK, Scandinavia, Netherlands, Austria), the Southern, Latin (France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece) and the Eastern, Slavic. Of course the separations aren't so clear-cut, but I am under the impression that when I read something about "Why are the Europeans so much better" it often matches the Northern category.

abalashov• 10 years ago

It's really hard to give much credit to anything talking about anything of nontrivial size and diversity, if that's your objection...

wfo• 10 years ago

Much like it's hard to give much credit to sentences that use common nouns at all; we would be better off without them, they only lead to generalizations.

In fact, I should take it all back, for I find in the process of communicating like a normal human I've generalized the very notion of improper nouns. Not all improper nouns are the same. And I've generalized generalizations themselves; not all of them are bad. Mea culpa.

tinalumfoil• 10 years ago

I don't think "privacy" is the right word to describe the lack of communication you're experiencing. I can respect a culture where people's default mode is not to socialize, especially as a more introverted American, but I don't see how your privacy in a public place can be anything other than zero.

jpatokal2• 10 years ago

There's a Finnish expression for this: you can see, but you do not look. For example, it's accepted that everybody in a sauna is naked, but you wouldn't go ogling at somebody's genitals -- even if they're the opposite sex.

It's "wilful privacy", if you will: as long as everybody respects the privacy, everything stays private, even though it takes only one person to break the illusion.

themartorana• 10 years ago

"Look with your eyes, not with your hands" is also a popular saying in saunas. So I hear. I wouldn't know.

Symbiote3• 10 years ago

Another example: many Nordic people don't close the curtains, so everyone could see inside.

But the shame is on the person looking, who is violating the expectation of privacy.

coldtea12• 10 years ago

but I don't see how your privacy in a public place can be anything other than zero.

Privacy is a spectrum, not a binary.

Consider two women sitting on a park bench and people around minding their own business, and same two women sitting on a park bench with a few nearby men staring at them, making obvious gestures, etc.

pedrosorio2• 10 years ago

I am just here to +1 what everyone else is saying: Austria/Germany/etc. != Europe

I have heard very similar comparisons using Portugal/Denmark instead of America/Europe.

coldtea12• 10 years ago

I am just here to +1 what everyone else is saying: Austria/Germany/etc. != Europe

I'm not from Western Europe either, but it doesn't matter if they don't include us while talking about "Europe".

Most of such articles discuss the cultural core of Western Europe, even if they call it just "Europe". Europe might have 30+ countries, but it's mostly those Western/Northern few that define "Europe" for such purposes.

This stems from a lot of things, but the historical divide of the "Eastern Block" and the "North/South" also helped solidify it. Those Western/Northern European countries were large global empires and they still have the EU power, are big global economies, are members of the G8/G20, etc.

So other countries get the short end of the stick, even if nominally they are "Europe" too.

Portugal or Greece or Czech Republic, etc., might not even exist in most such treatments of "Europe" -- those, when are mentioned, are explicitly called "the south", "balkans", "eastern europe", etc.

_delirium• 10 years ago

Sure, I can see glossing over the Czech Republic or Bulgaria. I'm more surprised by articles that seem to forget the existence of France, Spain, and Italy, though, since those are solidly in the traditional conception (even the traditional American conception) of "European culture".

pedrosorio2• 10 years ago

I guess I can't blame them for excluding the PIGS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)) when thinking about Europe.

wowoc2• 10 years ago

Yeah, the author just means the Germanic countries/culture.

partycoder2• 10 years ago

European children are quieter because demographically there are fewer children, meaning that children will be more likely to interact with an adult than with other children.

Adults do not like unquiet children, so they become conditioned to be more quiet.

blowski2• 10 years ago

My anecdotal experience is that families, instead of having a uniform distribution, tend to concentrate in some places while avoiding others. In such places, children have an equal propensity to interact with another child as they do an adult.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea whether this is true as I have zero data. I don't even know whether European children are more quiet, let alone all the other assumptions and assertions going on here. We live near to a school (in UK, just outside London), and the kids definitely don't use their "1 metre voices" during the lunchtime break.

partycoder2• 10 years ago

How about age difference with their parents? In developed countries people take more to get married and old people might not be all playful.

coldtea12• 10 years ago

No, that's not it.

Children of the age we speak of are either at home, where there 0-2 other sibling children commonly, or at school, where there are many children (as many as would be in a US school). Nowhere the relative number of children in society comes into play here.

It's not like 7 year olds play out in the streets of Paris and are told to be quiet, or they suddenly learn to be quiet when they visit e.g. restaurants.

Plus Asian children are equally or more quite, even when there are tons of them.

It's mostly about spoiling them and/or indulging them to whatever whim, rather than sssh them.

thrownaway2424• 10 years ago

I don't think that was the point of the article at all. In American playgrounds it is the adults who are speaking loudly, and the children learn that.

andrewtbham• 10 years ago

It's not just the kids, the adults are quiet also. The first time I went to Germany I couldn't believe how quiet the airport was when I landed. It's like a library in America.

Symbiote3• 10 years ago

For those of us who grew up and live in this culture, you wouldn't believe how loud the average American is.

It's like someone shouting in a library, whether it's my American colleague asking sometime else in the office a question, a couple of tourists on the metro, or an American family in a restaurant.

It's probably a large part of why Americans are often considered rude.

peteretep• 10 years ago

We forgave the Germans for getting up early to reserve the deckchairs when the Americans showed up. Everybody forgave the Americans when the Russians and Chinese from the provinces started travelling.

known• 10 years ago

"You are a product of your environment." --Clement Stone

abdulhaq• 10 years ago

We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill

Oletros7• 10 years ago

I suppose then that Spain is not Europe because here, children are not so quiet :)

kfk2• 10 years ago

Man, when do we stop this European thing? Have you tried to compare a kid in Naples with a kid in, say, Denmark? Come on, the kid in Naples will be a 24/7 hurdle, shouting in the street from when the sun rises. I even have a hard time talking about Italians since kids from North and South are very different.

pif2• 10 years ago

Came here to reply the exact thing. I said already once on HN and I'll repeat it: Europe is not a nation, and especially it is not _a_ culture!

askafriend• 10 years ago

Neither is India....or even the United States for that matter.

Also, while we're at it, can we also stop using "Cancer" as if it were a single disease that we can "cure"? "Cancer" is an umbrella term for a wide range of diseases that can affect vastly different parts of the body in different ways. It's not all the same thing.

atemerev• 10 years ago

It is a culture. Yes, in Copenhagen and in Naples, things are quite different, but there is also a common ground.

Compared to Americans, e.g. most Europeans don't like to go all in with some idea or project — the want some plan B. And nobody fears nudity (there are some grades, from being all ok with it [Germany] or still having some reservations [France], but still).

I lived in Russia, Switzerland, Italy, Denmark, Spain and the US. And I see more things in common between Russians and Americans then between Americans and the rest of Europeans. Both Russians and Americans like megaprojects, enjoy standing on moral high ground, like all-ins and risky endeavors, and long for foreign culture without really immersing in it. In Europe, none of these things are common.

mcjiggerlog• 10 years ago

I came to say the same - this is more of a Germanic thing thing that a pan-European thing. I'm living in Spain and the kids here are anything but quiet (compared with the UK).

jlg23• 10 years ago

[..] students are expected to sit with a partner and engage in quiet conversation. They are supposed to be able to hear each other, but not be heard more than one meter away. This allows other conversations to take place around them, creating an expectation of privacy and personal space in a crowded room.

The key here is: "This allows other conversations to take place around them". I was raised (in Germany) to understand that unnecessarily loud talking or shouting at each other is considered rude. As a kid I was far more often told to speak at an adequate noise level than to shut up.

On the generalization of "Americans" and "Europeans": Yes, it is BS, but the author reveals that she is mostly drawing from experiences in Austria and Germany and I'm pretty sure that everybody in this thread unjustly generalizes when (s)he does not know better due to lack of experience. Nobody complains when somebody writes about Scottish or Welsh people even though every valley there seems to have its own flag and slight cultural and even linguistical variations that we are too uneducated to see.

andrewbinstock• 10 years ago

Sadly, most of these comments attack everything but the fundamental thesis. In my experience, in most countries in Europe, children are quieter and better behaved than in the US. They're also more capable of having sustained conversations with adults.

jv22222• 10 years ago

Just want to say, as a Brit used to no eye contact and downright rude and grumpy retail service...

Man was it hard to get used to all the smiles and good service when I moved to the USA in 2009.

I know that sounds like a joke, but it really felt like everyone was being fake and sarcastic.

A major culture shock!

Annatar7• 10 years ago

Yep that's right, the smiles and the good service is all fake, from people being paid a minimum or below minimum wage and no incentive to excel at service.

In contrast, my experiences while I was in central England as far as politeness and service have been very positive, and are a credit to your nation.

However, that all utterly pales in comparison to Japan: I didn't know what service really is until I visited there. Nowhere else did I feel like I was on top of the world as a customer; I will never look at quality of service with the same eyes again.

GordonS2• 10 years ago

Totally agree with you about Japan!

I'm from the UK, and find the massive smiles and "y'all have a nive day" in the US to be... just so over-exaggerated that it almost becomes ridiculous.

In Japan everyone is so incredibly polite (e.g. train conductor bowing to passengers as he moves through the train, cleaning staff waving off the train as it leaves etc), but it feels very natural and genuine.

hyperliner2• 10 years ago

But we are fake, you just don't know it yet! :-)

Typical morning conversation American to American:

- Hey man how are you?

- good, and you?

- good too! See you later!

Now, that happens so fast that I have tried the following, and the answer was the same!

- hey man how are you?

- oh man my dog just died

- good too! See you later!

Basically, asking how you are is just a courtesy but frankly we don't have time for you.

- hey man how are you?

- well, you know, my wife has told me she wants to divorce me and my kids are not talking to me. It's been kind of rough you know?

- hey man sorry to hear. [starts walking away] I'd love to talk but I got a golf session to go to with my buddies. Keep it up ok? [dissapears]

sigh

jazzyk• 10 years ago

Conversation-killing words: Great. Fine. Fantastic. Perfect.

- How are you doing?

- Doin' great! Everything is fine. Sally and the kids are doing great

- So how was your vacation? I heard you went to <insert-desirable-location>

- It was great. We had a fantastic time.

- So...did you have good weather?

- The weather was just perfect, could not have asked for more.

- [Resigned by now] All right, gotta run - stay in touch, man!

- So great! to see you!!!

cronjobber2• 10 years ago

For city dwelling Europeans, the parks and playgrounds are their backyards

This system is efficient for citizens, but it is both fragile (requires a population of cooperators) and doesn't generate much profit for corporations. Expect to see it go.

Symbiote3• 10 years ago

No? You can charge more in rent or resale value for an apartment close to a park or playground.

cronjobber2• 10 years ago

That's true as soon as good public spaces are getting scarce, and is part of why it will happen.

cechmaster• 10 years ago

She has obviously never been to a European football game. Those people are louder than any American.

GordonS2• 10 years ago

As a European (UK), I laughed out loud when I read this title.

I've travelled extensively, and Americans seem to speak so much more loudly than... well, anywhere!

gkya• 10 years ago

I'm from istanbul and having seen tourists from every place on the world, I think the loudest are the Germans and the Saudis. When they speak on the tram I usually just give up with the earphones :)

stevoski• 10 years ago

Yes yes, I've live in Europe for 13 years. When there is an American group in a restaurant, you KnOW, no matter where in the restaurant they are.

I've observed this in Hungary, Germany, Spain and others.

My theory is that most Europeans, living all their life on a crowded continent, tend to move in closer to talk, and hence talk at a lower volume. Americans, used to grand amounts of space, sit back and project their voice.

orkoden• 10 years ago

Spanish are the loudest Europeans.

MrDosu• 10 years ago

Now a single city in germany is ~europe~...

dmh2000• 10 years ago

"Americans find it jarring when they are sitting at a European café or restaurant and someone takes the empty seat at their table"

I've experienced this and I had to exert will power not to get up and move. It was very unnerving. In the US I would have thought the guy was a creeper of some sort, or needed to be shot or stabbed quickly before he got me. I also was in a hotel restaurant once and there was only one other person at a table. The hostess wanted to seat me at his table, even though there were a dozen or more empty tables. Ack.

Why European Children Are Quieter

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