Tesla Motors' Model S Is Crushing Premium Car Market

http://learnbonds.com/126291/tesla-motors-inc-tsla-model-s-dominates-premium-car-market/

by doener • 10 years ago

50 61 10 years ago

listic2• 10 years ago

I very much support Tesla's spearheading of electic cars, but the thing that bothers me most is: how well do they work in colder climate?

I never seen functioning in cold climate mentioned by Musk or Tesla representatives. In my understanding, cold should be killing the batteries. If Tesla has met with considerable success in cold-proofing their cars, surely they would tell?

dagw3• 10 years ago

Tesla has a specific cold weather package and given that Norway is the biggest market for Tesla on a per population basis and second biggest in terms of absolute numbers, I'm guessing they work well enough in at least slightly colder climates.

gdilla2• 10 years ago

yup. here in chilly Ottawa theres plenty of teslas doing just fine. -25C at times,

winterchil• 10 years ago

Tesla is huge in Norway because of a number of large tax advantages from income tax deductions, to free registration, etc.

That being said, they obviously wouldn't sell if they didn't work but I wouldn't look at the popularity there as endorsement of cold weather performance, other factors are at play.

bryanlarsen2• 10 years ago

I imagine most of those sales are in Oslo and other areas in the south of Norway. Oslo is surprisingly warm for such a Northern latitude -- it rarely drops below -5C (23F) there.

creshal• 10 years ago

I asked our Tesla rep the same when we made a test drive. He reassured us that it won't be a problem under warranty, because Tesla replaces all battery failures for free, and "who would drive a car for more than five years anyway? Just get a new one when the warranty expires."

We thanked him for his time and did not choose a Tesla.

(That was a few years ago, nowadays it's eight years. But still…)

ssharp2• 10 years ago

who would drive a car for more than five years anyway? Just get a new one when the warranty expires.

That sounds ridiculous to me but it's probably a pretty common sentiment with people who spend 100k on a car, considering there are lots of people buying 25k cars who do the same, despite it probably not being a wise financial decision.

skellington• 10 years ago

But still what? How many gas engines and transmissions in comparable luxury cars will last 8+ years without significant cost? The Tesla warranty is 8 years but the batteries will last significantly longer they will just have less than 80% of max storage (I believe that is the warranty threshold).

The tesla powertrain as a whole should last a million miles or maybe more with nothing more than routine maintenance and some battery pack changes which will drop in cost over time. If battery pack changes get down to $5K (which seems very possible), and battery packs are usable for let's say 150K miles, then you get a car with a power train that runs for a million miles for about $45K in maintenance (add a bit more for tires and other incidentals) and then subtract the cheaper electric fuel cost. This is less than the cost to keep the power train running for a Mercedes S class for one million miles (which will probably require 4 or 5 transmissions and 4 or 5 motors to get to a million miles).

But realistically people don't repair 150K+ mile S classes because it would cost $30-40K to replace the tranny/engine plus all the other engine things while the car would be worth very little, so they junk it and buy a new car which means the cost of owning an S class for one million miles is more realistically the cost of owning 5 or 6 S classes.

taf2• 10 years ago

This is pretty normal for Luxury cars - I recall my wife getting pitched on a Range Rover and when she asked about gas mileage the salesman response was if you are worried about the gas cost this is not the car for you. But also the idea that you would keep a luxury car for more the length of the lease is generally understood(I thought) to be crazy you always trade in for the new and shiny...

ProblemFactory• 10 years ago

It's not just the batteries: heating the cabin takes considerable energy in -20C, but but the heat is "free" on fuel-burning engines.

Hopefully there will be more data available and released in the future, as Tesla and Nissan Leaf have been the best-selling cars in Norway for multiple years in a row.

For anecdata, an Uber driver with a Nissan Leaf told me recently that range on very cold days is about half of the summer range.

ZeroGravitas2• 10 years ago

You pay for the heating in increased drag, via the front radiator grill, even when you don't actually want or need the heat.

Also worth noting that some, but not all, Leaf's have a more efficient Heat Pump based system which has less impact on the battery.

pavlov• 10 years ago

Cold does affect the batteries. However it's compensated by one nice feature of electric cars: they don't suffer the same kind of cold start problems as traditional cars. As long as the battery isn't dead, the electric engine will be ready to go immediately, regardless of whether it's +30°C or -30°C.

ZeroGravitas2• 10 years ago

The other nice feature many electric cars have is that you can set them to turn on their heating at a pre-arranged time, and (assuming you've got it plugged in outside your home) it'll draw that power from the grid rather than the battery.

post_break• 10 years ago

When is the last time you've had a cold start issue? I mean even in the coldest climates block heaters are put into place. Cold destroys battery run time, it's physics.

notatoad• 10 years ago

Seeing a Tesla on the road is an everyday occurrence here in Calgary; they seem quite popular despite having only opened a store in the last year or so. There doesn't seem to be any issues with the cold.

pj_mukh• 10 years ago

20% Drop in performance as opposed to 50% in other EV's as reported by the cult following in Norway (https://youtu.be/fsLMlozXjhk?t=52).

devy• 10 years ago

Tesla and even EVs in general with battery thermal management (that is pretty much everyone each Nissan LEAF in USA) are working just fine under extreme conditions (cold / hot). Sure the temperature does affect battery range as much as 50%, but you can recuperate some of that via pre-conditioning - that is to warm the batteries to improve the chemistry.

I drive an EV myself and living in Northern NJ, temperatures can go below lower teens in some years. After a 30 minutes pre-conditioning, batteries get warmed up to 42F, which would certainly alleviate the range issue.

Additionally, ICE cars also suffer on range under cold conditions. [1]

[1] http://www.fleetcarma.com/cold-weather-fuel-efficiency/

NickM2• 10 years ago

In my understanding, cold should be killing the batteries.

Well, depends on what you mean by that. If you're talking about long-term longevity, cold actually helps: lithium-ion cell capacities generally degrade more slowly in cold temperatures.

I own a Model S as my only car, and it's worked great for me in winter. Cold temperatures definitely impact range (although this is more due to the extra power requirements of heating the car than anything to do with the batteries themselves). I've experienced maybe a 15% range loss in winter, or maybe as much as 35% in really cold temperatures well below freezing. Shorter trips lose more efficiency because the car doesn't have time to warm up, but then shorter trips usually don't need as much range ;).

When the car gets 260+ miles of range on a charge in summer, then even losing 35% still leaves plenty of range for any situations I've found myself in during ~2 years of ownership.

listic2• 10 years ago

Yes, I was primarily worried whether cold does permanent damage to the batteries, and whether running them in cold temperatures is actually within operational parameters/covered by warranty.

bryanlarsen2• 10 years ago

I guess it depends on what you count as a premium car. 5 Series, E-Class, Lexus GS and similar premium cars crush the Model S in sales.

Sure, the Tesla is arguably more "premium" than the 5 Series and its competitors. But it's also hard to argue that the Model S is as premium as an S-Class.

erikpukinskis2• 10 years ago

Yep. The problem is Wall Street won't have anything to say about Tesla until after the Model 3 production ramp is well underway. The bets are already locked in. We just have to wait.

But the press has to write about something about in the intervening three years!

Shivetya• 10 years ago

Well the very rich, as in those can afford eighty to one hundred thousand dollar cars, usually have more than a few at hand. Tesla did well to market to both the rich crowd who likes toys, the environmental crowd who needs things to make them feel less guilt, and the techies who just love all things new and cool.

You don't crush a market with the volume Tesla has. Most of the big brands use these as cash cows. Put it this way, BMW makes a X5 and X6 which are effectively identical but the later makes 8k more profile and they sold a quarter million of them since inception.

When Tesla can deliver what people want to buy right now and not make them wait then they might be crushing the competition.

As for the 3 EV. Still not seeing it, it will obsolete the S if Musk's boasts are to believe and why would any company put out a car for less than half the price with the main key feature being the same, 200+ mile range? Tesla doesn't have the production capacity for it so who will be their partner? Or where will they get the billions needed to build the production line that can deliver in volume?

Good cars, not just sold on them being great. Sorry but 200-250 mile range in summer is not what I consider a replacement vehicle for stats, make as second vehicle or third.

robmcm2• 10 years ago

If you live on a small island like the UK that range covers most trips. However I keep expecting someone to create a roof box range extender (combustion engine) that just charges the battery.

It will be interesting to see were the supposed Apple car will fit in, I imagine they will go after the low volume / high margin market to start.

ams61104• 10 years ago

Range extender as a add-on is an interesting idea. Could be done as a trailer also. But I imagine that people who can afford Teslas will either just rent as needed, or own a conventional car for longer trips.

mrfusion2• 10 years ago

Does anyone know about privacy in the model s. Is tesla always tracking your location and car stats? Is there a way to disable that?

ck22• 10 years ago

unscrew the antenna connection?

but it probably buffers the data locally to upstream to tesla later when it cannot communicate

it's one of my imaginary dilemmas if I ever won the lottery and bought a Model X

it's not like you can run cyanogenmod on your tesla - yet

mrfusion2• 10 years ago

Is there a SIM card to pull out? I'm glad someone else shares my same imaginary dilemma.

I'm not sure why the car tracking me bothers me but a cellphone doesn't.

brianwawok2• 10 years ago

Do you have a cellphone? Pretty sure you can already be tracked. Even if they are turned off.

Best bet is to go an old car with no electronics, and wired phone to your desk. Oh and avoid any roads that have cameras that can plate scan. May want to wear a mask when you go to the mall too, face scanning tech is getting pretty good.

hueving2• 10 years ago

Irrelevant to the question.

Even if they are turned off.

Citation needed.

saturdaysaint• 10 years ago

I'm a fan of Tesla/Musk, but at a glance I have to question the validity of the comparison chart, which seems to exclude a lot of cars in the Model S's pricerange from all of the manufacturers. I'd be a lot more interested if this included all cars by the manufacturers above the Model S's $70,000 base price. Picking out one or two models misses that an absurd overabundance of models/options at every pricepoint is pretty fundamental to the auto market as it exists today. All of the makers are building an ever-expanding lineup, and the large sedan category listed here strikes me as a niche that's rapidly going extinct in the U.S., at least.

SonicSoul• 10 years ago

I thought this was link bait but after a few searches it looks like 26,566 in 2015 figure is plausible [0][1]. That's kind of impressive! I thought it was still a niche market.

on a side note teslamotors.com is using Cold Fusion (cfm)?!

[0] http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-4CW8X0/140267905...

[1] http://ir.teslamotors.com/events.cfm

Tesla Motors' Model S Is Crushing Premium Car Market

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