NSA Cheerleaders Discover Value of Privacy Only When Their Own Is Violated

https://theintercept.com/2015/12/30/spying-on-congress-and-israel-nsa-cheerleaders-discover-value-of-privacy-only-when-their-own-is-violated/

by bainsfather • 11 years ago

597 119 11 years ago

theintercept.com

peteretep• 11 years ago

This is what gives me hope. All politicians have skeletons in their cupboards, none trust their opponents to use their power fairly.

Shivetya• 11 years ago

we busted Nixon for less, you do not spy on Congress just because you don't like the head of state they are talking too

TillE• 11 years ago

So this is an absolute scandal which reaches the very top, but the CIA hacking Senate computers is what, no big deal?

Amorymeltzer• 11 years ago

The better analogy is to J. Edgar Hoover, about whom presidents from Roosevelt to Nixon did nothing, many of whom disliked, distrusted, and feared the man.

cronjobber• 11 years ago

Same with journalists. They're at most lukewarm on privacy, maybe a little less now but certainly before Snowden, until someone wants to touch their privilege as members of the press to have untapped phone lines etc.

at-fates-hands• 11 years ago

The ironic part of your statement is that the Justice Department scrutiny of James Rosen came and went and nothing was done.

One of the foundations of this republic is a free press. In his case, you had a major abuse of power where the government started seizing his emails and going through them without his knowledge to try and build a case against him to release one of his sources to a story.

And what happened? Absolutely nothing. No one was charged, there was no investigation, and two years on, does anybody even remember it or even care about it?

HillRat• 11 years ago

Ah, schadenfreude at work:

Pete Hoekstra: Obama Stopping Key Surveillance Programs Dec 11, 2015

Pete Hoekstra: New Spying Scandal Biggest of Obama's Presidency 13 hours ago

Not that Hoekstra is going to change his tune on surveillance; he just believes in the national security state for thee, not me. I've always felt that one of the more corrupt aspects of the UK security state was the exemption granted to Parliament from the kinds of intrusions other citizens lack protections against; now I expect Hoekstra and the other surveillance cheerleaders to try and carve out the same privileges for Congress.

arethuza• 11 years ago

I'm sure that neither GCHQ or the Security Service would dream of directly spying on their political masters - the NSA will be doing it and they'll get to share some of the results.

jacquesm• 11 years ago

I'm sure that neither GCHQ or the Security Service would dream of directly spying on their political masters - the NSA will be doing it and they'll get to share some of the results.

Well, only because they don't have to. I'm sure that they will be more than happy to provide the reverse service in return.

mtgx• 11 years ago

Most of the Congress/Parliament are not their "masters" per se, so why would they care? If I'm not mistaken Clapper has already admitted the NSA is "inadvertedly" spying on Congress, too, so clearly this isn't such a big issue for them as to not make it possible to spy on them even inadvertedly anymore.

vidarh3• 11 years ago

I've always felt that one of the more corrupt aspects of the UK security state was the exemption granted to Parliament from the kinds of intrusions other citizens lack protections against

The Wilson doctrine was recently found by courts to not having any legal force [1]. As it should be, as it was just a promise made by the then Prime Minister, which was never put through parliament. What is more astonishing is that MPs have believed successive governments would adhere to it - and ensure the security agencies adhered to it - without the force of law.

Astonishingly Theresa May then claimed in parliament that the Wilson Doctrine "remains unchanged". Which I guess is technically true, in that it has never actually applied, but at the same time it was double-speak of the highest order.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Doctrine#2015_Investiga...

spacecowboy_lon• 11 years ago

There have been UK MP's caught spying John Stonehouse for one and recently the last mp for portsmouth had a much younger female GF from the former soviet block which raised a few eyebrows.

legel4• 11 years ago

Equal justice before the law is essential for any true democracy to function. And whatever laws we implement, it is their fair and equal implementation that will be in the best interest of everyone. So if it's really best to have more or less surveillance, either way we should have members of government under the same surveillance, just the same as the citizens being governed.

This is probably welcomed news from the average citizen, who already feels (and fears) the end of privacy and the endless gaze of our panopticon surveillance systems.

Armisael16• 11 years ago

The average citizen doesn't notice or care about the NSA/CIA/whoever.

legel4• 11 years ago

You're probably right.

Edit: average Hacker News citizen.

JackFr4• 11 years ago

While equal justice before the law is essential, it is well understood that since at least the ancient Greek city states and the Roman Republic, that certain public offices are conferred with with special rights, privileges and responsibilities. That lawmakers, in the process of deliberation and legislation have a greater expectation of privacy is arguable, but not unreasonable.

wpietri4• 11 years ago

If they are using them as part of their official duties, then yes, special privileges can be reasonable. But then logically surveillance is one of the things they can't really object to; if they are only doing the business of government, then why shouldn't government know what they're up to?

legel4• 11 years ago

This historical wisdom is very interesting. I'd be happy to hear more about the arguments in favor of it.

But also, keep in mind there is no precedent for one factor that is perhaps critical to today's and tomorrow's power dynamics: information technology.

The intelligence community today has radically expanded its powers, for better and for worse, because of its ability to monitor and consider (i.e. A.I.) so much more.

This is actually one of the most concerning factors for me, because historically we know humans can be absolutely brutal to each other, and perhaps inevitably so, given bad contexts.

Hence, the 4th Amendment to the Constitution:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

(Just imagine replacing the word "papers" for "data".)

I would be pleased to see better oversight by Congress of the intelligence community, just as the opposite is also happening.

JackFr4• 11 years ago

I think Greenwald misses Hoekstra's point entirely.

Consider an analogous situation. Republicans are up in arms because [they believe] right-wing groups were targeted by the IRS for political purposes. No one is proposing that the IRS be dismantled, or that its purpose is illegitimate, but rather its improper use as a political tool of the executive branch is wrong and possibly criminal.

Similarly, I'm sure Hoekstra has not changed his tune a bit regarding NSA surveillance in general. The scandal is using the intelligence apparatus as a political tool.

danielahn• 11 years ago

Who better to surveil than those who may have access to state secrets, and are actively talking with representatives of other countries? Members of Congress should be at the top of the list for NSA surveillance.

XorNot• 11 years ago

Perhaps more important to note: are, and its not a secret.

Members of government in general have very little expectation of privacy when it comes to their communications, to the point that it's a significant issue with Hillary Clinton's private email server that the mail is unrecoverable in some cases for auditing purposes.

hobs• 11 years ago

I don't think Greenwald misses that point, he (like anyone who understands the scope of spying at play) clearly understands the implications of massive spying and how that could play into blackmailing our other branches of government.

The point of the article is pointing and laughing at people who cant make the logical leap of, "if they do it to someone else, they might do it to me.", the political uses are just the MOST obvious thing to do in this scenario.

wpietri4• 11 years ago

Your analogy doesn't work very well in that among others, Ted Cruz, senator and presidential candidate, has explicitly called for abolishing the IRS [1], and many on the right believe the the IRS's purpose is basically illegitimate.

I also think the US right is currently so hyperbolic and so inclined to politicize anything that it's hard to say with any confidence that "the scandal is using the intelligence apparatus as a political tool". Many things that would previously been framed as political disagreements are now framed around the president's total illegitimacy. Of the leading US Republican presidential candidates, majorities of their supporters believe that Obama is a Muslim who was not born in the US. [2]

[1] http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ted-cruz-abolish-irs-fair-t...

[2] http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/08/trump-suppor...

beachstartup• 11 years ago

No one is proposing that the IRS be dismantled

lots of people propose this every year, including viable presidential candidates.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

awakeasleep2• 11 years ago

A better article could have been written about how an unwritten rule is broken when the state uses its security apparatus to investigate and discredit its own elected officials.

Crossing that line destroys the plausible deniability surveillance enjoys. You can't make the 'necessary for terrorism' argument when the surveillance directly subverts the domestic government. And of course thats what we were all worried about, and it's the most arresting sort of example for everyone. And how did that 'unwritten rule' become a thing in the first place?

A lot of the wide appeal and scary implications that could be written about gets lost when gloating about how lemmings 'flip-flopped' after they walked into that machine that rips off their heads.

lambda• 11 years ago

  You can't make the 'necessary for terrorism' argument 
  when the surveillance directly subverts the domestic 
  government.

What prevents a member of the domestic government from being a terrorist, or having ties to terrorists?

ph0rque• 11 years ago

What prevents a member of the domestic government from being a terrorist, or having ties to terrorists?

Mostly semantics (depending on how one defines "terrorist" and "ties").

awakeasleep2• 11 years ago

Elected officials represent the will of the people in a democratic government. Their policies are the legitimate policies of the government. The security and defense wings of the government are strictly subservient to the policies of elected officials, or it's no longer a democratic government.

themartorana2• 11 years ago

What a convenient question.

dhimes• 11 years ago

My Palestinian friends would argue that this is precisely whom they were spying on.

KirinDave3• 11 years ago

Indeed, many in the house claim affiliation to a party that has a stated mission of being anti-government and backing people who say radical things. That we don't categorize "preppers", christian fundamentalists and separatists as terrorists is a matter of national convention.

nickodell• 11 years ago

What prevents a member of the domestic government from being a terrorist, or having ties to terrorists?

That's a good question. I would say that nothing does. But that's the wrong question.

Imagine that the NSA found a conversation between a member of Congress and a foreign intelligence agent. However, because that Congressperson supports the NSA, they leave it alone. On the other hand, they see another member of Congress talking to the same intelligence agent. This Congressperson already hates the NSA, so the NSA won't lose any supporters by checking them out.

Then, because of the information revealed about the second Congressperson, they lose their next election, and the next Congressperson is perhaps more friendly to the NSA. The NSA looking at Congress can distort decisions made about the NSA.

I feel nervous about the NSA spying on Congress for exactly the same reason I would feel nervous if the NSA were spying on the FISA court judges. It's a separation of powers issue.

lostlogin• 11 years ago

I would guess that more terrorists have been created, funded and supported by the US government than by any other group of Americans by a long shot. Dealing with terrorists aren't even particularly historic, with the early days of the civil war against Assad being supported and look what that turned into.

marcosdumay• 11 years ago

Of course, that makes it undeniable that the spying program is about internal politics, not external threats.

The hypocrisy happens because doing mass domestic surveillance is enough to make it clear that the program is about internal politics. But those politicians are reacting only after they discover they are not immune to it.

oskarth• 11 years ago

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

steven20122• 11 years ago

Is it really surprising that our politicians believe they are above the laws that they create? They believe the laws are for us sheep and not for the wolves. Look at the insider trading laws for Congress as an example.

adekok• 11 years ago

Never attribute to maliciousness what can be better attributed to stupidity.

I've worked with managers who simply couldn't comprehend that a particular issue was a problem for the engineering department. No amount of examples, demonstrations, or complaints helped. It wasn't an issue for them, so the issue didn't exist.

Their story changed later when they ran into the issue. It was now a problem that had to be fixed immediately.

I would explain very slowly that yes, this was a problem. And that they had been made aware of it months ago. And that they had opposed fixes to the problem.

The response, of course, was blank incomprehension. They just couldn't understand that they were incapable of understanding something.

Needless to say, I don't work with those kind of people any more.

atom-morgan• 11 years ago

Never attribute to maliciousness what can be better attributed to stupidity.

We are talking about the government here.

steven20122• 11 years ago

I am very, very consciously attributing this to maliciousness. Have you not been paying attention to US politics for the last ~15 years?

hanniabu• 11 years ago

Well technically they don't think they are above the law and aren't breaking any laws because they write into legislation exceptions for themselves.

And for anybody that doesn't know about the insider trading....insider trading isn't illegal for them. That's most likely one reason they get so rich in office.

vinceguidry• 11 years ago

Hypocrisy is an inevitable consequence of politics. A politicians job in a democratic society is to be an instrument of public will. Well, the public is made up of countless mindsets and ideals, some of which are going to conflict with others. Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth because the only alternative is silence, and silence is career death.

You judge a politician by which bloc they vote most consistently for, not by what they say.

kmfrk• 11 years ago

A nice little coda to CISA being passed in the omnibus bill.

csandreasen• 11 years ago

To put this into perspective, it's worth noting that this was an issue of almost unprecedented contention between the US and Israel over whether or not to lift sanctions against Iran in exchange for nuclear disarmament. What Israel does to advance its foreign policy objectives is definitely within the purview of a foreign intelligence agency, and in this case the Israeli government was very actively lobbying congress. It seems pretty clear to me that the goal was to find out what Israel was doing, not spy on Congress.

The folks over at Lawfare had a much different breakdown of the issue: https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-do-conservatives-suddenly-so...

Relevant quote:

Was the activity properly disclosed to the intelligence committees? Actually, NSA’s behavior with respect to Israel appears to have been briefed to Congress, as one would hope. “Convinced Mr. Netanyahu would attack Iran without warning the White House, U.S. spy agencies ramped up their surveillance, with the assent of Democratic and Republican lawmakers serving on congressional intelligence committees” (emphasis added).

mwsherman2• 11 years ago

This is not hard to understand. Gov’t officials believe that the work they do is different in kind. This is a philosophical belief. The desire to be in government requires this belief to a greater or lesser degree.

So the idea that citizens should be monitored, but not gov’t officials, is intuitive from this point of view. A variation on diplomatic immunity, if you will.

It’s not irrational or uncommon. I happen to disagree with it as much as a human possibly can. But one can understand the position.

bitchypat2• 11 years ago

But one can understand the position.

It is perhaps understandable in a communist dictatorship, but how exactly is that understandable in a representative democracy? They act as representatives of their constituents, they do not work for anyone except their constituents. And 'work' is imprecise verbiage - they serve. Undermining the constitutional freedoms of the people they serve is far from an understandable position for any elected person.

Maybe you understand it because you accept sociopaths as your representatives?

stillsut• 11 years ago

Nixon orders one little intelligence gathering operation and everybody goes crazy #NotACrook

dwc• 11 years ago

Maybe you understand it because you accept sociopaths as your representatives?

Now, now, let's not be like that. You do NOT have to agree with something to try understanding someone else's point of view or thought processes.

Understanding a point of view gives you a better chance of bringing someone around. Also, this isn't limited to politicians. Almost any form of authority, public or private, comes with the same attitudes. Think prosecutorial immunity and the like. Or how some company management views things. There's usually a fair amount of "the ends justifying the means" in there somewhere.

jessaustin• 11 years ago

If one accepts representation, one inherently accepts the sociopaths that are attracted to such circumstances. Reject arbitrary authority.

reinhardt• 11 years ago

Honest question: do you find, say, police enforcement in a representative democracy also non-understandable? Is the idea that only a few designated individuals have the right to arrest or interrogate someone equally revolting, and that in an ideal society we should either all have this right or nobody?

guelo3• 11 years ago

The people that have reached the highest levels of the political system are understand better than anyone that we don't really have much democracy remaining. They know what the system does value and are devoted to it.

chongli• 11 years ago

but how exactly is that understandable in a representative democracy? They act as representatives of their constituents

It's easily understandable if you spend some time thinking about who their constituents are. If you think that group includes you, then you are thinking just like the "gov't officials" mentioned by the grandparent: believing your society is one that is different in kind.

URSpider94• 11 years ago

The fact that legislators have a different legal status from the general population is documented in the Constitution -- they can not be arrested or detained while in session, or on their way to or from a session. There's a clear legal doctrine that each branch of government should be free from interference from th others.

Not to say that it's OK for the NSA to spy on American citizens in general ...

eternalban• 11 years ago

Ink on paper... USSR Constitution (1977) [1]. Please note articles 54, and 55. (& I am sure you know of the preferred method of boiling frogs.)

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/77cons02.h...

avz• 11 years ago

This is not hard to understand. Gov’t officials believe that the work they do is different in kind.

We're talking about public servants.

They're given some power and privileges only so they can do the job of serving the public and not for any other purpose. This comes with risks of corruption and abuse and so the situation calls for stricter monitoring and scrutiny of the public servants than of the citizens they represent.

If any public servants hold the view you described then they are misguided and utterly misunderstand the role they've been given.

vijayr• 11 years ago

So the idea that citizens should be monitored, but not gov’t officials, is intuitive from this point of view

Shouldn't it be the other way round? If I have the power to do something that will affect others, I would want someone to monitor my actions to keep me in check. For example, if I had access to production boxes, I would absolutely want to have some processes/checks and balances in place so I don't mess up, even unintentionally. So why should these govt officials not be monitored, when they go around poking other people's lives, often without any permission and repercussions? Not only their access be controlled/monitored, they should be subject to more scrutiny than normal Joe.

soheil• 11 years ago

What exactly is understandable? Their outrage? Or their hypocrisy of provoking the Fourth Amendment, for example, to defend their right against unreasonable search and seizure under the constitution as regular American citizens and not government officials? Is it understandable that they think they're above the law? If so by which law? A secret law that no one knows about and is just understood if you're a government official? If so how can it be understandable by anyone else? Is it also in the same way easy for you to understand when a person lies to their teeth and commits the most heinous crimes? What about war crimes? Can you understand those too? After all everyone believes something.

paulddraper• 11 years ago

"What exactly is understandable? Their outrage? Or their hypocrisy"

Yeah, their hypocrisy. It's "understood" in the sense that it is expected.

ck2• 11 years ago

It's not that they discovery the value of privacy.

They really believed nsa (and law enforcement otherwise) will only use their powers against the "bad guys" and that they would never be subjected to invasions of privacy.

They don't care if NSA violates everyone else's privacy as long as theirs isn't violated.

Just like congress gets a special pass through TSA checkpoints, they don't care as long they aren't hassled and subjugated to violations of rights.

mightybyte• 11 years ago

Now we just need to get personal dirt on all of congress as well as the Supreme Court justices leaked...

HashThis• 11 years ago

People should really understand how revolting what is happening. Watch the congressman indignant about spying on Israel. What is happening here is that they are putting the privacy of a foreign country higher than US citizens. Politicians and the establishment actively force privileges for a PRIVILEGED CLASS.

They treat foreign countries and corporations as being more important that US citizens. People need to see that there are fundamental problems with the establishments. This congressman never worries when the constitutional right of privacy is stripped from US citizens, but not from the privilege classes.

tertius• 11 years ago

May it be that the circumstances are more than just "privacy being stripped."

For instance, what does the administration have to gain from spying en masse vs. what does that administration have to gain by spying specifically on another branch of government?

I'm not saying either of those things are ethical, rather that the second one is different and we should be upset about it for different reasons.

We can be upset at both, but to say they 100% the same is not understanding the larger situation.

* I don't know the congressman's own record about spying on the populace, but if he's all for it then I don't agree with that.

themartorana2• 11 years ago

Fantastic point.

WSJ report that NSA spied on Congress and Israel communications very disturbing. Actually outrageous. Maybe unprecedented abuse of power.

— Pete Hoekstra (@petehoekstra) December 30, 2015

If he was just upset at spying on Congress, that'd be one thing. In fact, (and mentioned in the article) Hoekstra basically scoffed at foreign leaders being mad about being targeted for surveillance. But we knew the NSA spied on Congress a while ago. You'll notice he has zero outrage for spying on US citizens.

But the article outlines several of the most egregious hypocrisies. It's staggering how boldly our leaders in Congress support, then don't, mass warrantless surveillance when they find out they're part of the "mass."

banku_brougham• 11 years ago

I imagine the NSA having dirt on numerous Congressional representatives, and I imagine the leverage obtained via threat of judicious release of such info in a politically damaging way. Not in a way that reveals the wiretap of course; think 'parallel construction.'

Now imagine the congresswoman or man who attempts to reduce the funding or curtail the powers of the NSA, and how convincing they could be in dissuading any action that slows the increase of powers, privileges or funding for the security agencies.

As with entropy I can only see the arrow moving in one direction, heedless of the concerns of the population or their representatives.

shmerl• 11 years ago

Some learn only when they taste their own medicine. The worst part - such hypocrites aren't fit to be politicians.

typon2• 11 years ago

As an outsider, watching this happen in the US is like watching a really slow car accident. This country is being destroyed slowly by its own leaders. As long as the leaders and others in power are not held accountable by law, there can be no sustainable social progress.

KirinDave3• 11 years ago

Which country in western society is NOT facing a crisis of surveillance this decade? The entire EU political scene is frothy with special exemptions in the wake of the Paris attacks.

We're just in an early election cycle so this stuff comes to the fore as ammunition against the current executive.

typon2• 11 years ago

Fine, I see this as more a problem with Western Civilization than just America. America provides the most spectacular and clear example though.

mml• 11 years ago

In reality, today's modern American politician is positively angelic compared to any time in history.

The good old days weren't that good really.

kordless• 11 years ago

It shouldn't be surprising that a congressperson's actions switch polarity at times. They have to try to toe the line of general concensus until there are clear "winners" to an argument.

dawnbreez• 11 years ago

I've got some popcorn, if anyone wants some.

In all seriousness, the chances are that this guy took a strong-spying position because that falls in line with his party and opposes his opponent's posititon. He most likely began opposing it as a PR move, as well. The US selects its politicians for PR skills.

pjc503• 11 years ago

Well, yes. This is a common problem in politics but particularly bad in the US: factional morality.

People decide who's a "good guy" and a "bad guy" first, then say you should investigate the bad guys and leave the good guys alone. Rather than having an impartial process.

lisper2• 11 years ago

It's actually even more insidious than that. The behavior of the "good guy" is used to define what is acceptable and vice versa. The most glaring example of this was the Al Qaeda attack on the USS Cole. The Cole was a war ship in foreign waters. You cannot possibly have a more legitimate military target. Nonetheless, the attack on the Cole is invariably labelled as a "terrorist attack" because, well, it was done by Al Qaeda, and whatever Al Qaeda does is, by definition, terrorism.

By way of contrast, the United States has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Al Qaeda ever dreamed of (well over 100,000 in Iraq alone) but this isn't terrorism because, well, we're the good guys.

pjc503• 11 years ago

It wasn't in Al Quaeda territorial waters, as AQ is not a state. That's why it's terrorism. There must be better examples; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God ?

barkingcat• 11 years ago

This type of behaviour is common in the United States.

Weren't there some elected officials in the US who were adamantly anti-gay rights until their own daughters and sons came out as gay? And then they had a change of heart in order to not destroy their kids with the same legislation that they voted for themselves for years and years on end.

As flawed humans it's not hard to understand. It never seems to hit home until you experience it yourself. This is a call for getting a more diverse group in positions where they can change legislation and actually make things better for people.

I'd welcome the day when the US elects into governing position a convicted criminal who's served their time and is interested in changing the legal system for the better.

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

The thing that bothers me is that they should've already made this connection. That's due to the same precedent the media should be all over: J Edgar Hoover. Hoover pushed for greater power for FBI, including surveillance, to combat the communist threat. They encouraged people everywhere to tip them off with innocent people often being harassed. Sound familiar post-9/11?

Anyway, Hoover decided surveillance power had a better use: digging up dirt on politicians, media people, judges, whoever. This was back when FBI agents had to physically tap phone wires or sit outside your house. Nonetheless, with very little capabilities, he got enough dirt to blackmail Congress into increasing his power and reign for decades. So, one person already took control of Congress via unlawful use of surveillance.

Now, we have an agency that can spy on everyone and everything simultaneously with algorithms looking for juiciest tidbits? And Congress doesn't see how this could be bad for them? Even one rogue group with unlogged access to the collection tech could get enough dirt on key committees probably in weeks to months. Whole NSA could be honest except them and still a huge threat to democracy.

This is why I argue that we need to push Congress and business elites to roll back government surveillance while constantly reminding them of J Edgar Hoover precedent. I was sure they'd be spying on at least some of Congress. Articles like this only make our claims stronger. Keep asking them if they want to be working for NSA employees with copies of incriminating messages, photos, or meetups? Or do they want to keep their power over their own fiefdoms?

Gotta be in their self-interest and risks they understand. Like blackmail and how dots can be connected between them and lobbyists financiers.

Sharlin• 11 years ago

Of course, one possibility is that they already are blackmailing everybody...

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

I agree. I brought it up on Schneier's blog. Particularly, all the things that pass quickly and without a hint of discussion. So we need a strategy to counter that, too.

CaptSpify• 11 years ago

"Those that don't understand history blah blah blah". And that's why we have things like The Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. They are a focal point for us to say "Oh right, we were getting a bit emotional and got carried away. We should probably scale this back a bit."

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

That should apply but apathy prevails. Whereas elites and politicians stay active on legal issues that impact them. Hence, suggesyion to focus on getting their support instead of voters.

a3n• 11 years ago

Even one rogue group with unlogged access to the collection tech could get enough dirt on key committees probably in weeks to months.

No power goes unused. I'm quite certain that the NSA is doing this now; no rogues required. As you point out, Hoover was the example. I'm quite sure the NSA has learned that bit of tradecraft.

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

Manning and Snowden showed so much access with so little monitoring that they might not even need tradecraft. My hypothesis was a USAP doing this stuff with a cover story justifying secrecy. Could evdn do it with guise of protecting Congress from foreign attack.

CWuestefeld• 11 years ago

The thing that bothers me is that they should've already made this connection.

It bothers me, too. But I'm not even mildly surprised.

Look also at the historical record of Prohibition. There's no escaping the parallel between that and the modern (failed) War On Drugs. Prohibition caused huge suffering, and endless societal problems, and much of it was cured after the 21st Amendment. One needs to be quite stupid not to see the parallels.

Maybe they're not so stupid, though. While Prohibition was quite damaging to the nation as a whole, it was a blessing to the few who were in a position (and of sufficiently flexible morals) to capitalize on it. This was the foundation for the power of many, including (implicated by circumstantial evidence) the Kennedies.

I don't think it would be surprising if some of the less scrupulous understand the risks, but think that they can ride the tiger well enough themselves to make hay (and mix metaphors!) from it.

nickpsecurity5• 11 years ago

You actually have a good point. Just financially speaking, many promoters of NSA have stock or campaign contributions tied to defence contracts. They do better when DOD corruption is higher.

Also the power networks to considet but they're harder to map. Finally, there's image benefits for looking like one's taking action on terrorism.

guelo3• 11 years ago

My conclusion is that Israel is not our "friend", whatever the hell that means. It is an aggressive powerful state willing to use that power without regard to any international norms. And it has irreparably corrupted our political systems to serve its own needs.

If the surveillance state has any purpose, keeping an eye on Israel should be a top priority.

relkor2• 11 years ago

I would encourage you to examine the role of Israel as America's lightening rod. It is my personal belief that America's leadership is very aware of the usefulness of Israel and at least sometimes postures accordingly.

guelo3• 11 years ago

A lightning rod for what? Terrorism blowback?

junto2• 11 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the underlying concept of a democracy is to vote for one person to represent you in congress. So why is it that these people only stand up for the rest of us when they themselves are directly and personally affected?

Somewhere along the line the word representative has lost its meaning. They forget that they represent every single person in their state, not just the ones that voted for them. They are a single voice echoing the voices of everyone they represent. They are sadly tied conceptually to their political peers, rather than those they represent. They should be fighting for us, not against us.

Laaw2• 11 years ago

You're incorrect on what a democracy is; what you've described is a republic. Democracy isn't a system of government. Anarchy is a system of government that implements a direct vote on all issues.

junto2• 11 years ago

Democracy: noun. a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

Animats• 11 years ago

The intelligence community was doing its job. They were monitoring the actions of foreign agents trying to secretly influence Government policy. The intel community is supposed to be doing that. That's basic counterintelligence - it's how you catch spies.

avmich• 11 years ago

Oh c'mon. Do you understand the issue of privacy at all? The whole problem is that when you want for any cost to spy, you'll step on your shoes with privacy infringements. And then the higher order goal - the one you do the spying for - gets compromised.

NSA Cheerleaders Discover Value of Privacy Only When Their Own Is Violated

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