Indian Regulator Temporarily Suspends Facebook’s Free Basics

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/Put-FBs-Free-Basics-service-on-hold-TRAI-tells-Reliance-Communications/articleshow/50290490.cms

by krisgenre • 11 years ago

98 53 11 years ago

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

zinghaboi5• 11 years ago

I hope this turns into a more permanent decision. Indians need to keep sending emails to TRAI. Indian government should be worried about handing over private details of Indians to the NSA on a silver platter. But even without that risk, Free Basics can evolve into something disastrous for Indian startup scene and jobs/innovation.

Lets look at two extreme scenarios.

->India without net neutrality: Everyone has free Facebook. "Free basics" didn't help in advancing electrification of the country but it did provide free facebook/wikipedia to everyone. So 30% of the country is still in dark. But 50% of the rest of India doesn't pay for internet and it thinks there is no need to because that is ALL the internet has to offer. A young founder launches a new education app to teach reading/writing to poor villagers. But she first needs to get a 'license' from facebook. Facebook doesn't think it is a good idea for its users to 'waste' time on other services instead of watching ads on FB, so it declines. Startups don't receive as much funding because of the 'licensing' issues and there aren't as many Indian tech companies as there could've been. News is censored by Facebook and Facebook can now influence Indian politics. 100,000 fewer jobs were created because the Indian tech scene didn't take off.

->India with net neutrality: 50% of the country cannot pay for internet. They still don't have access to internet. They use other forms of communication to get their daily, unfiltered news. The startup scene in India is growing at its natural pace and the culture has become more innovative. In another 10-15 years everyone will have internet. 100's of thousands of poor were lifted out of poverty due to tech jobs in India.

One is a short term 'fix' which ruins the future. Another is a little bit harder but provides for a better future.

cubancigar11• 11 years ago

Facebook is asking its users in India if 'you support free internet to poor people?' and then giving them a text-box and a submit button to write an email to TRAI in support for Free Basic.

witty_username4• 11 years ago

According to a post on Reddit, they are sending this petition to people outside India too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/3xrzly/facebook_allo...

witty_username4• 11 years ago

Infact it only costs 0.01$/GB (probably less with peering) to offer access to the entire internet. Suppose a 50 MB daily data cap is provided to users and there are 50 million users, that's 50000$/day i.e. 18.25$ million/year, certainly not impossible for Facebook (and probably data costs can be cut down 50% with better peering). And I would not mind the government funding a portion of this.

zinghaboi5• 11 years ago

Facebook rather spend that money on Billboards, advertising "Free Basics". Facebook should come clear on what it is gaining from "Free Basics" instead of acting as an angelic, non-profit. Or is all the money they're spending to advertise 'free basics' in India for a non-profit motive?? Should mention the profit motives in their ads.

Indians were taken aback by the amount of money Facebook chose to spend to advertise Free Basics. Premium Billboards, 2 page advertisements on major publications, other ads...They must have a plan to make profit out of all this spending. They should come clean on it in their ads.

mkagenius2• 11 years ago

0.01$/GB

How? What I get here is INR 275/GB which is $6/GB (for 3G), and approx. INR 100/GB for Edge.

wormseed• 11 years ago

1c/GB is a tenth of the price of datacenter bandwidth, a hundredth of residential DSL or cable access bandwidth and a thousandth the price of mobile bandwidth.

You're off by three orders of magnitude.

aianus2• 11 years ago

But 50% of the rest of India doesn't pay for internet and it thinks there is no need to because that is ALL the internet has to offer.

The majority of the content on my Facebook feed is links to external websites. I'm skeptical of this argument that poor people will be forever satisfied with just chatting and browsing Facebook and will never upgrade to full internet.

parennoob• 11 years ago

I'm skeptical of this argument that poor people will be forever satisfied with just chatting and browsing Facebook and will never upgrade to full internet.

It's not just Facebook that's a part of Free Basics, it is Facebook, Wikipedia, and a bunch of other services that are "approved" by Facebook. So the chance is greater that people will become used to these free services (not just Facebook) being perceived as the Internet.

alephnil• 11 years ago

In several other Asian countries (e.g. the Philipines, Indonesia, Thailand), a much larger percentage say they are on Facebook than the portion that say they are on Internet [1]. Of cause they can't be on Facebook without being on Internet, but those users have no idea that Facebook require internet, and that it usually means that they also have access to other Internet services.

A lot of users in these countries answer yes to the question "Facebook is the internet", and claim they never follows links out of Facebook. Of cause these answers reveal widespread ignorance, and it may be that they don't know if they leave Facebook or not, but it does mean that Facebook is the gateway to Internet for them. Thus a lot of users will stay satisfied with internet.org, especially if that is what most people in their local communities use.

[1] http://qz.com/579502/the-winners-and-losers-of-2015s-10-most...

schandur• 11 years ago

The majority of the content on my Facebook feed is links to external websites.

Not sure if you are joking, but with features like "Instant Articles", Facebook has every reason to keep people on facebook.com rather than sending them to external websites.

When you are locked down in a walled garden that allows messaging (within the garden) and every other service is blocked, people will simply believe that walled garden is all there is.

necessity• 11 years ago

But 50% of the rest of India doesn't pay for internet and it thinks there is no need to because that is ALL the internet has to offer.

I think you underestimate people's intelligence. More so, if they only want to use Facebook, or don't want to use anything else enough to pay for it, what's the problem?

A young founder launches a new education app to teach reading/writing to poor villagers. But she first needs to get a 'license' from facebook.

Only if Facebook is the only ISP, which could only happen if government passed a law or regulation that made that so. Or if people are not interested in anything else, in which case they should not be forced to pay for anything else.

They use other forms of communication to get their daily, unfiltered news.

Are you implying they wouldn't without net neutrality?

The startup scene in India is growing at its natural pace and the culture has become more innovative

Not, it isn't. It would be more innovative if it was forced to compete with Facebook.

In Brazil where net neutrality is sort of in place the only thing that happened was people being deprived of "free WhatsApp + Facebook" mobile data plans (which didn't forbid them from acquiring a more expensive plan to access other things as you suggest it would!). Now you just have to pay expensive prices even if you just want to chat with your friends.

firasd3• 11 years ago

Not, it isn't. It would be more innovative if it was forced to compete with Facebook.

Just FYI, startups in India already go head-to-head with Facebook and Amazon. What Free Basics does is make them compete for preferential treatment by network operators, which changes the whole game.

roansh• 11 years ago

>But 50% of the rest of India doesn't pay for internet and it thinks there is no need to because that is ALL the internet has to offer.
I think you underestimate people's intelligence. More so, if they only want to use Facebook, or don't want to use anything else enough to pay for it, what's the problem?

I think this is totally possible, not at 50% though. Imagine the people who have never used Internet before and are not-so-educated. If Free basics is what they are going to use for the first time, it's possible for them to think that what they get to use through that, is all of the Internet.

zinghaboi5• 11 years ago

I think you underestimate people's intelligence. More so, if they only want to use Facebook, or don't want to use anything else enough to pay for it, what's the problem?

Would people have moved to Facebook from Myspace if they had to pay $10 per month just to access it? Would people have tried Google if they had to pay $10 per month to access it?? This is a tax on innovation. The innovation from big players doesn't get taxed while a founder would need to innovate 100x instead of the current 10x to make people move. Founders have limited resources. Creating 100x innovation will take a lot more time than getting people to move to 10x innovation, making some money and innovating further. What do you think this would do to the angels in India who have recently started investing in startups rather than gold/land/stocks? They would go back to land/stocks.

Only if Facebook is the only ISP, which could only happen if government passed a law or regulation that made that so.

Facebook intends to use data services (3g,4g) to deploy its free basics. There aren't many companies providing data services because of obvious spectrum limitations.

Are you implying they wouldn't without net neutrality?

They primarily get information on radio and newspapers. If those sources are corrupt, lets not add another corrupt source into the mix.

Not, it isn't. It would be more innovative if it was forced to compete with Facebook.

Really? There was a time in India when you had to be REALLY REALLY REALLY innovative (in many different ways) to merely get a license to start a business from the govt. We called it 'license raj'. You know what it did. It killed all the innovation. You have to let smallest of innovations thrive for them to grow into bigger ones!!

Now you just have to pay expensive prices even if you just want to chat with your friends.

Better than the possibility of being stuck with that same 'chat' for the next 20 years. India needs jobs more than 'free chat'. Jobs will come from Indian companies. And Indian companies cannot thrive unless the field is even. Plus, its not about Indian vs Foreign. If a small guy produces 2x innovation, his innovation should triumph over facebook. Facebook's coffers shouldn't prevent progress happening in the world. That 2x innovation, if given a chance will grow to 200x.

josh2600• 11 years ago

Just like how in the US we all use AOL, because of the free discs, right? I mean, who would ever want anything beyond AOL once they've had AOL, right?

eggie3• 11 years ago

This isn't like the free AOL discs, but as if AOL were free but never allowed people to access anything other than a free encyclopedia, medical information, and their own content and services.

A major reason Facebook is doing this is that they see an investment opportunity. In some countries the majority of people are using the internet, but can't distinguish the internet from Facebook. That is any techno-monopolist's wet dream, and it is exactly what they are going for across the entire developing world.

I know for a fact that some people working at Facebook think they are doing good and being charitable by supporting internet.org. It is extremely hard to convince anyone who stands to gain from internet.org that this could be a net negative for the people on the receiving end. I've been called arrogant and out of touch for arguing this. To me, it is disturbing that this is seen as a world-changing act of charity, but some people clearly feel that way. I'm relieved that regulators are standing up against Facebook, and I hope they stand strong, but I have doubts. We may be losing the free internet and weakly accepting the rule of a new emperor.

shas3• 11 years ago

But she first needs to get a 'license' from facebook.

How is this different from the iPhone and the closed app store? If people don't like closed app store eco-system of the iPhone, they buy Android. Similarly, if the poor don't like Free Basics, they will opt out of it for a competitor.

Also, the licensing thing will be less of an issue, if Facebook commits to a transparent, fast, and preferably automated process of gaining their zero-rating.

firasd3• 11 years ago

I had this exchange with a VP at Facebook: https://twitter.com/firasd/status/679620676286693377

  Me: if you guys prevail in enabling zero-rating it even damages Facebook.
  WeChat could be zero-rated & undermine WhatsApp
  
  Them: so you're saying it could foster competition?
  
  Me: it means anyone launching an app will have to cut a business deal with an ISP.
  Completely subverts the value of the internet

It's telling that people behind this program don't even understand how critical net neutrality was to Facebook's success and the health of the internet.

zinghaboi5• 11 years ago

Is he really a VP at Facebook or just a troll?!

firasd3• 11 years ago

His twitter just has his first name but from the nature of his tweets he seems like someone working on internet.org

littletimmy3• 11 years ago

This is so ridiculous. Zuckerberg keeps suggesting that he is doing something good, which everyone can transparently see is just an effort to make Facebook more popular! How disconnected from reality is he?

TazeTSchnitzel• 11 years ago

Disconnected from reality? Zuckerberg knows precisely what he is up to.

aianus2• 11 years ago

he is doing something good
just an effort to make Facebook more popular

These things are not mutually exclusive.

littletimmy3• 11 years ago

Technically correct, but the ad campaign is trying to make it sound like it's only to do good. That's what's hypocritical.

That said, Facebook is not good.

enlightenedfool• 11 years ago

That suspension is for a bribe. Once that's in, expect it to be lifted. I'm not kidding. It's a core ethic by which government functions.

wtmt• 11 years ago

While a lot of things may be influenced by bribes, the TRAI (Telecom Regulatory Authority of India) is one of the better entities that also works for the common person and is respected a lot more by the public compared to local arms of the governments. It may not be perfect, but it's not the sleazy corrupt good-for-nothing entity you may assume it to be.

chdir• 11 years ago

Submitted this to HN yesterday but it didn't get attention. This articles summarizes the issues well : https://medium.com/@amod/the-dangers-of-a-rogue-social-netwo...

Another note, Facebook is spending millions to lobby & market "Free Basics" in India.

More examples of their machinations, stressing on the word "accidental" : http://recode.net/2015/12/21/facebook-accidentally-asks-u-s-... .

dang• 11 years ago

Url changed from http://techcrunch.com/2015/12/23/free-basics-trai-suspension..., which points to this.

christopherDam• 11 years ago

I think somehow Facebook wants to kill the competition , do not want to let innovate the world and want to rule on the internet. There is whole startups group which want to innovate and evolve but due to shitty ideas of Facebook and other operators this will change the whole game only because or their selfishness.

sremani2• 11 years ago

Zukerberg cannot catch a break. Poor fellow, what kind of money does he make by connecting the lower economic spectrum of India? Is there some business tactics in there for growing the consumer base, sure, but honestly, this should be perhaps duty of Indian people, public or private. For all its imperfection internet.org is about reaching to poor people, who have NO ACCESS. Is a heavily subsidized but limited access EVIL than No ACCESS.

majani• 11 years ago

You're missing the issue here. Cherry picking websites that are zero rated is evil, monopolistic practice. If the internet is to be subsidized to the poor, then give them the whole internet. Not just Facebook and a select few other websites.

zinghaboi5• 11 years ago

Reaching out to poor people is a poor propaganda excuse to make sure the regulator doesn't come after them.

Free Basics is being advertised in metropolitan areas, not poor villages. Why waste money advertising it on TV Channels which only the elites watch? Poor people cannot afford subscriptions to those channels. Yet they're running Free Basics ads on those channels. Why don't they limit Free Basics to first time FB sign ups? Why are they targeting people who already have internet connections? Majority of people who will sign up for Free Basics are the ones who already have internet. That is exactly what Zuck wants. No advertising money to be made in remote villages. If it was...Facebook would be in the villages...it is NOT!

The fact is that Facebook is not committed to Net Neutrality.

sremani2• 11 years ago

Are metros devoid of poverty? It is the first group of poor people who might be aware of Internet but do not have economic power to attain it. If I start something like FB basics, I will start with Urban poor, not rural poor. Advertising on Channels, I do not have much knowledge and you may have a point there.

Even in First World, people are cutting cord and using their mobile phones as sole Internet connection, that Internet is capped, has priority traffic etc.

I prefer net neutrality, but am willing to give some exceptions esp. when catering to lower economic spectrum, who themselves cannot exchange money for Internet connection.

littletimmy3• 11 years ago

It's not about money, it's about power. He who directs what a few hundred million people see on the internet has tremendous power - and that what Zuckerberg is after. He is not to be trusted with such power - no one should be trusted with such power.

vankap• 11 years ago

Absolutely not. This adversely affects the budding start up industry in India. If Zuckerberg really wants to help poor Indians, then provide access to the entire internet and let them figure out which service helps them out best.

As a compromise, free access to only non-commercial non-profit entities/websites that offer beneficial information is acceptable although not ideal.

tn132• 11 years ago

Just because a person is poor does not mean he is stupid and cant decide for himself. Give poor people an opportunity to decide for themselves.

"Free basics" is free because someone is paying for it (in this case facebook). Banning it would not make normal internet available at same price point to poor people. The choice here for these poor people is between "free basics" and "no internet". I personally think they are better off with "free basics".

My driver has Whatsapp but no data connection as he does not want to pay (Rs 120) $2 per month extra. Instead he connects to wi-fi at my home whenever necessary. I think he will be better off with free basics.

In a moral standpoint asking telecom companies to forgo their profits to impose our own view of internet on them through government coercion seems like theft to me. Since spectrum is public property government could have imposed such a restriction while demanding bids for it but adding this constraint later seems like a robbery.

tn132• 11 years ago

Also to point out other things, closes systems like Playstore and Appstore actually help poor people get access to quality apps without worrying about frauds or malware.

Indian Regulator Temporarily Suspends Facebook’s Free Basics

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