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witty_username

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From https://www.evunite.com/blog/tesla-owner-demographics/ :

Based on data pulled from 2,650 Tesla owners, the average household income of a Tesla Model X owner is $143,177 per year.

The average household income of a Tesla Model S owner is $153,313 per year.

This compares to the United States national medium household income of $78,500.

143k is about the 85th percentile ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United... )

So, this is at least upper middle class.

The graph is different as it shows the wealth share, not the income share.

I'm not going to try and debate anything with someone who thinks economics is the only measure of life, you're too narrow minded.

I don't think money is the only measure of life. Then what do you want to use to measure it?

You entirely missed my point and reduced it down to simple, naive, economics again. How depressing.

Of course it's about economics as it deals with policy and impacts on people. Simple arguments are better.

Not using economics is a cop-out from using rigorous quantitative analysis. It's interesting that on say climate change HN will be all like we should follow the science, yet economics is the science relevant to our discussion.

There's far more to life, and to a country, than GDP.

True, so what? More money is still better. GDP per capita is a good measure of peoples' living standards.

An interesting read about "The Economics of Happiness" is https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke201... by Ben S. Bernanke, former chair of the Federal Reserve (the part starting from "As you might guess, when thinking about the sources of psychological well-being" is most relevant).

https://www.gapminder.org/news/hdi-surprisingly-similar-to-g...

As for ordinary people "owning" companies, that's either a naive or disingenuous argument.

The stats don't back your stance. "Compare that to the middle class, which has a median value of a mere $14,000 a household."

Also, bond yields (and bank interest) go up when stock yields go up and (I don't know if CNN counted this or not) people invest in retirement funds which invest in stock. And insurance companies also invest their customers' money.

(http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/18/investing/stock-market-inves... )

http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/03/retail-investors-hold-38-of...

"A surprising fact revealed in the report is that retail investors have invested $9.8 trillion in the U.S. equities, or 38 percent of the total $25.8 trillion corporate equity holdings. Additionally, $812 billion hedge fund assets belong to US retail investors. To put in context hedge funds have total assets under management of approximately $2 trillion. This would mean that approximately 40% of hedge fund assets come from retail investors in the US, the remainder comes from foreign investors and institutions."

They're a tiny percentage. It is widely acknowledged the benefits of economic recovery has almost entirely been captured by rich people and ordinary people haven't seen an effective wage increase in a decade.

The stats don't back your stance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Income_Share_of_Top_... here, rejoice that the top 1%'s share is mostly static

Meanwhile,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N it's increased by 7.3% from 2012-2015

Interestingly, you said "The stats don't back your stance." while not using any stats yourself and only using weasel words like "It is widely acknowledged the benefits of economic recovery".

That rich people benefit from the laws and protections of the U.S., without having to deal with the corruption and laws of India. But they can then import cheap workers to displace the very people who paid for those protections to even exist in the first place?

If the tax system is so broken that the poorer are paying for the richer's protection, then fix the tax system so that the rich person pays the "correct/fair" amount. For example, remove most of the deductions and other rules and replace it with a simple flat tax.

Anyways, why are you saying "rich people"? Ordinary people own these companies and purchase from these companies. They benefit.

It's not fair to replace a local worker with a foreign worker because they're cheaper.

It's as fair as buying something for cheaper when you can.

In fact, it's probably more fair as globalization lifts foreign workers out of poverty.

A richer local worker loses while a poorer foreign worker wins and the U.S. overall wins.

Are you sure about the 30$/hr figure for people escaping extreme poverty?

30$/hr is rich in India, so it's not surprising there aren't better rates.

30$×8×20×65 = 3.2 lakhs per month = 37 lakhs per annum (average Indian makes somewhere of the order of magnitude of 1 lakh per annum).

For reference, in /r/india (on Reddit--not representative of the average Indian) a person posted about how they were struggling to live with 1.6 lakhs per month, and that became a meme.

Economics is not the only factor to factor into someone's interests. Everyone has things they value more than money.

What are the things that affect the case for open immigration?

How does that justify help? It's not just like you help them to get on their feet and you're done. They and their descendants will live in your society for generations. Nobody is obligated to give them this at the expense of their citizens.

What is the harm in them living in my society?

They want to immigrate here because wages are higher. However, there are only a limited number of jobs, and so flooding the job market with more people prevents natives from being able to find work, which is against their interests.

No, there are not a limited number of jobs. See lump of labor fallacy. Some natives will have a harder time finding work, but there's a net benefit to natives.

Just read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/wiki/faq_immigration

It's exactly like Roosevelt's Judicial Procedures Reform Bill of 1937, where he tried to pack the supreme court with justices favorable to his political faction, except this time they are trying to pack the US electorate. These people and their descendants overwhelmingly vote left.

Don't give immigrants the right to vote or full citizenship then. Problem solved.

>Well, I am against forcing racial diversity, so you can stay with your ethnic group/society in my proposal. That's illegal in the United States. Every ethnic group has to live among every other ethnic group. Nobody can create societies that only allow people of their ethnic group to live among them, so it's not true that anyone can stay with their ethnic group, barring some serious constitutional reforms.

Source for constitutional reforms being needed? I think the U.S. constitution only says the government can't discriminate based on race, ethnicity, etc.

What is the point of government if not to act in the best interests of its citizens? Why are our governments now apparently obligated to act in the best interests of foreign nationals? This has nothing to do with alleviating poverty or humanitarian ideals. It's blatantly obvious that this advocacy for open borders is part of a power grab by the left to ensure that they stay in power for decades to come, at the expense of the people who actually built the society that they want to invite everyone else to live in. What party do they think these people are going to overwhelmingly vote for? I don't understand how people can openly advocate for destroying our society just for political gain.

I self-identify as a neoliberal (fiscally conservative); is that part of the left?

Economics research says low wage immigrants are a net economic benefit, so it is in the interest of its citizens, but not completely objectively as some people are harmed. Also, I think the extreme poverty in parts of the world can justify help, just like how 1000$ is more to a poor person than a millionaire.

No, immigration alleviates poverty as Americans are much richer than the average person. Why do you think so many people want to immigrate?

I don't think it's a power grab by the left (open borders are not popular, as you can see right here) and that's irrelevant to the merits of open borders.

the people who actually built the society that they want to invite everyone else to live in

This criticism seems to be for leftists.

Well, I am against forcing racial diversity, so you can stay with your ethnic group/society in my proposal.

LLVM 4.0.0 9 years ago

Coding directly in LLVM IR is tedious. It's supposed to be used via the AST building APIs.