Ask HN: Any advice for an early startup employee who feels screwed and lonely?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10484332

by toocool • 11 years ago

29 46 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hi,

2.5 years ago I joined a startup in SF as one of the very first employees. The offer was quite ridiculous, but after doing tons of work and becoming a key element I was able to negotiate again my compensation, and now I have north of 1% ISOs and 165k salary. My role is heavily technical, I built most of the core at the beginning and now I spend my day leading a few teams in the company (the company size is 35 people).

The main problem is that I feel this inner conflict that is deepening every day: I can witness that my productivity and my contribution to the company is huge, but I don't get any satisfaction out of it because I feel like my slice of the pie is way smaller than what I think I deserve.

Also, I feel very lonely in this matter, because all my coworkers are either more junior, less talented or less ambitious than me, and so for them the simple joy of working on interesting problems and getting an equity of 0.0x % is more than enough.

Some solutions I can think of might be:

1) Get a better title (VP of engineering): this is going to be absolutely hard. The founders are extremely stingy and so are the investors, and I've been repeatedly told that in order to aspire to a VP role for a company with our traction you need to have a previous curriculum, which obviously I don't have since this is my first startup experience (I'm 28).

2) Leave: this one would make sense if it wasn't for the ISOs. If I had to leave and exercise my vested share of options, I would have to pay an incredible amount of taxes (because our valuation increased) for a liquidation event that might happen years from now, or never.

3) Ask more money/equity: knowing myself, this would make me genuinely happy for about a year or so, and so might be reasonable. The problem is convincing the founders (and the investors) would be very draining, since I'm already the highest paid technical person.

Have you ever gone through something like this?

Thanks for reading.

jnardiello• 11 years ago

Disclaimer: I never went through a similar situation.

To me it sounds like that you have built the core platform for someone else, as an employee, and you have been rewarded for your work. Problem is: you are an employee and you are tired of that.

My feeling is that what you are really saying is that you would like to do your own thing, but the current situation is too economically stable and good to just give it up. How about keeping consistent with your current role and start working on a pet project? Might sound like an obvious advice but it does really make sense to me given your situation :)

toocool6• 11 years ago

Thanks for your reply. That's an incredibly sound advice, and I feel like I missed a detail in my post: the contribution that I'm giving to this company is requiring me to work a lot (not like crazy, but let's say a good average of 50 hours a week), so I really don't have the spare bandwidth to start a serious pet project that could lead somewhere else than just simply playing with some technology for the sake of it.

gscott• 11 years ago

You are doing well enough to save to do your own project to do later.. Eventually this company will move on from your work, even though it seems impossible now, they are quietly trying to figure out a way to do so. When they do, just be keeping your expenses low now and low in the future so you are not dependent upon a job. I have made the mistake of becoming "invaluable" and every time the company management works to find a way to replace me because they want to show they are in charge and are not dependent upon any one single person even if it is not in their best interest to do so.

carsongross• 11 years ago

I would say this: it is never as bad as it seems and it is never as good as it seems. Startups are very hard on everyone, despite the smiles and glowing press. What you are feeling is natural, and a lot of close-to-founder employees go through it. (Founders do too.)

Tactically, at your age and at that level of comp, I would stick it out for a few more years or until it became clear that the ISO's were not going to be worth anything, which ever came first. Jumping ship almost always seems more attractive that it turns out to be in actuality.

I would also recommend some sort of stoic philosophy. I am a Christian, but there are plenty of other options: zen, greek, etc. At the end of the day, none of this shit really matter that much, and, additionally, it's all pretty funny if you can get some mental space between yourself and the situation.

Good luck.

toocool6• 11 years ago

Thanks for the wisdom, appreciated :)

yitchelle• 11 years ago

I would also recommend some sort of stoic philosophy. I am a Christian, but there are plenty of other options: zen, greek, etc.

I highly recommend getting some of this advice to work for you. Having a different view on situation will definitely help "soften" the tough situation that you feel you are in.

In a similar vein, I have consider what my salary/job has provided me, it gave me opportunity to experience other cultures, provided my family the financial resources to be secure and look after their health. Sometimes, I feel that I am being greedy if I chase for more money.

hanniabu• 11 years ago

Does the startup have technical founders? How many rounds of investment have you guys taken on? How many employees have an equal or higher title than you? Is your role in technical and possibly business development integral enough where it would be really difficult to replace? Does the company have enough of a runway to figure things out if you left?

toocool6• 11 years ago

Does the startup have technical founders?

Yes, one.

How many rounds of investment have you guys taken on?

Seed and Series A. A new round might be coming soon.

How many employees have an equal or higher title than you?

On the technical side, nobody (except the founder), but that will change soon as the engineering team is expanding.

Is your role in technical and possibly business development integral enough where it would be really difficult to replace?

I like to think that it would be difficult enough, because of the know how acquired from having worked from day 1 and for the potential contribution that I can still give to the technical execution.

Does the company have enough of a runway to figure things out if you left?

The company is well structured, so it will definitely survive, but that being said I'm without doubts the employee who would cause the biggest, albeit reparable, damage if he left.

Thanks

trowawhey• 11 years ago

I feel like I could have written that. I can tell you what I've done, but I'd be overstating it to call it advice.

I've been a huge contributor to my current company, but as the first employee, even 3% of our stock feels stingy. I've easily contributed more than a high-equity founder (by everyone, including other cofounders', assessment). Also going through the "well, we can't pay you more because we can't afford it" rigmarole and not even getting the title consolation prize. Similarly feeling trapped by the whole mess.

I frankly think it was a poor decision for me to join the company, and I can't see myself taking another early employee position unless it's fully compensated (either much more equity than is traditional, or a market salary), which doesn't seem to be the norm, despite outsized risk.

I've found consulting to be a good outlet for ambition and way to make up for disappointing compensation. I also enjoy working on side projects with the intent of commercializing them.

toocool6• 11 years ago

Consulting might as well be an option, if I just had more free time. The problem is that we are still early enough that I have to work a lot, and it completely drains my professional energy (nowhere close to a burnout, a "healty" draining)

seekingcharlie• 11 years ago

By "consulting", I believe they mean leaving your job and consulting full-time. That way you are in charge of your own schedule and salary.

quickpost2• 11 years ago

I couldn't agree more and appreciate your honest take on being an early employee at a startup. The equity mismatch between early employee and founder really doesn't make much sense to me and despite being interested in startups, it's really hard for me to overcome the inherent unfairness in the situation.

If you're a solid contributor, consulting with defined engagements and clear compensation schemes seems a far better exchange of time for money than a low salary with options that may or may not be worth anything, ever.

Jemaclus2• 11 years ago

Assuming no pay increase, titles are free. If you're already managing the tech teams, then you should be able to get the VP Eng title with little problem. It's a win-win situation for them, too: you're happier with the nicer title, it costs them nothing, and it looks better on your resume when you choose to leave.

If you want VP of Engineering and a pay raise, that's another story altogether... Sounds like you fought the pay battle already. I'd push for a better title.

The few comments posted before this one are valid and good advice. Stick it out, and keep pushing for the things you want. Good luck!

toocool6• 11 years ago

From my understanding, titles are not free at all: they present an opportunity cost, especially when the company is on the right trajectory. Promoting someone to VP means that there will not be room to bring a VP from the outside with a track record of successes, one that most of the times the investors themselves are pushing to bring into the company.

giaour• 11 years ago

They can always bring in a Senior VP above you if they feel you're not being effective. I've seen it happen at a startup that regretted its decision to give an early employee a VP title, even though there were no other SVPs.

startupvet• 11 years ago

Not true. Titles and roles change all the time. You can absolutely be the VP of Engineering and if and when they need/want a "real" VP of Engineering you can become for example, the VP of Infrastructure Engineering reporting to the VP of Engineering. I doubt that they have any formal structured options framework so don't let them use that trick, if they do mention it, have them show it to you right at that moment, because if they can't it means they don't have it yet.

Anything worth having is worth fighting to have. To quote Bill Gates in the Simpson's episode, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks." That's how the founders think. Getting what you want will be like taking a gazelle away from a hungry crocodile.

Jemaclus2• 11 years ago

As lostdog mentioned, if you can't get "VP of Engineering", go for "Director of Engineering", which is basically the same title, but leaves room for them to hire a "real VP" later down the road. As I said, titles are free. You can get one better than your current title with little hassle, most likely. Although you sound like you expect a lot of hassle about this, which for me is not a good sign. I'd probably walk if they weren't willing to compromise on something like this.

lostdog• 11 years ago

If you can't get VP Eng, go for Director of Engineering

wpietri• 11 years ago

Hi!

For solution 1: Titles are based on what you are doing, not what you did at some previous company. Go research typical roles and responsibilities at other companies. If you are doing the VP work already (lots of personnel and process work, in my experience), then show them that you meet the criteria and ask for the title. If you aren't (or they disagree), tell them that you want to get there and ask them for support. This might include classes, an executive coach, and/or mentorship from other executives. Or you may discover that you really want a different title (e.g., technical architect, or something higher up the Google ladder [1]), in which case ask for that.

For solution 2, if you haven't already paid for an accountant who specializes in this, please do.

For solution 3, you could also consider asking them for a one-off payment that would let you collect some/all of your stock in exchange for staying on another year. Then they don't have to mess with the salary structure, and they also don't have to give away more equity.

I'll add that 1+% of equity does not sound bad for somebody who has always collected a good paycheck and who does not have a senior title. Here are some resources that can help you compare:

http://avc.com/2010/11/employee-equity-how-much/

http://www.ackwire.com/jobs/engineering

https://angel.co/salaries

http://www.datarevelations.com/startup-cto-salary-qnd-equity...

https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-comp...

I also saw a Riviera Partners report that put the average equity for A-round VPs of engineering at 1.4%.

[1] https://www.quora.com/As-of-2015-what-are-the-different-leve...

zeeshanm• 11 years ago

Given you are able to land a job at another company making $180K++ it would only add a few more hundred dollars to your bank account after taxes. If I were you I would not optimize for that unless I am after collecting a few more hundred dollars every two weeks.

In reality, the only way to optimize for the best returns for your time is to start something yourself. There is __no__ other way.

6d0debc071• 11 years ago

Have you ever gone through something like this?

Yeah. For me it wasn't worth it. I could make enough in other companies - where the opportunities for advancing were higher and where the work environment was nicer - to get what I wanted out of life. So, the money was more something that would have been nice to have if someone had offered it to me out of the blue, but of itself didn't/wouldn't result in any significant lasting increase in happiness by comparison to the alternatives.

omegote• 11 years ago

I quite don't get why you're complaining with such a compensation, seriously. $165.000, goddamn. I'm 27 and I barely make 1/8 of that a year, being a full stack web developer, in Spain. And here you are, complaining. Sometimes I think you guys in the US live in another world. Better yet, you should try to live in another country. You'd quickly earn how inflated the startup scene salaries are in the US.

toocool6• 11 years ago

I bet my monthly rent covers 6 months of your housing expenses :)

I find useful in these cases to compare monthly_income / monthly_rent to get a relative index that is more comparable across countries.

marvel_boy• 11 years ago

Inflated salaries? No, technical work is not inflated in the US. In Spain companies pay nuts to engineers, and persons like you are responsible for this.

askafriend2• 11 years ago

No. That is the kind of salary technical contributions deserve (if not much more). You are the one getting under-compensated and that's the real issue here.

brazzledazzle3• 11 years ago

Ignoring the difference in salaries due to markets for a moment: This is obviously about respect and acknowledgement concerning this person's contribution.

That said, if you don't already you must learn that cost of living and the job market have a huge impact on compensation and can vary dramatically from region to region in a country. Different countries entirely are literally a world apart. If you do already know this your comment can only be taken as sour grapes.

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt concerning that still makes your comment a bit shitty. You have a skill that can be used not just remotely to get paid more, but as a basis for immigrating to a country that can pay you what you're worth. Yes, that's easier said than done but if you want something more you can get it with hard work and some elbow grease.

dfraser992• 11 years ago

What is --actually-- motivating you to stay?

I was hired, by a friend of a friend, to build a website. I was told "prototype", MVP, "ad supported".. "we'll find investors". As a contractor, fine, just pay me.

4 years later, after a customer threatened to sue for being defrauded, I finely wised up. I had been strung along with late payments for 4 years, the work kept piling up, I begged for help (it was just me doing all the technical work)... and the wife of the CEO let it slip they were doing 6 figures in revenue. I had gotten so obsessed with the work, that I fell into my OCD and did not pay attention to the business side of my "business".

4 years of near-burnout... and the guy who introduced me to this £$%£% finally decided to tell me he knew for a fact the CEO had a history of criminal behavior (i.e. fraud).

It was a harsh lesson in my blindspots. I learned a lot from a personal angle but it cost me 6 years of my life (to recover from the burnout as well). I got at the root of my OCD like behavior though. I was the same way - just a little more work, it'll all be over, the money, money, get all the invoices paid and quit... but it took a real crisis to slap me upside the head.

Not to say your founders are psychopaths, but look at it from their POV. You're just the hired help. It's not profitable to make you happy from a monetary perspective and you aren't taking advantage of the power you may not know you have (my biggest mistake).

If you're in business with someone, ruthlessness, however polite, is the only option (the CEO a year after I quit, -abandoned- his family and now is in a big legal battle with his wife who funded the company).

Ruthlessness is sometimes the only way to get respect from people, and I infer this may be part of your problem.

-- But I may be projecting my issues onto your situation --

So that is why I ask - what are the possible deeper psychological issues that are keeping you stuck? I know this inner conflict you speak of very well, and until I really understood the fundamental reasons why I put up with all the shit, I drove myself crazy.

hope this helps...

brazzledazzle3• 11 years ago

Even if the founders aren't sociopaths they will be pressured by themselves and their investors to do what's best for them and the whole time someone will be telling them that "business is business". If people can rationalize committing genocide they will easily rationalize screwing you over.

lacker• 11 years ago

So there are 35 people. What's your role, exactly? Are you managing the entire engineering team?

If getting more money/equity would only make you happy for another year, then the money and the equity isn't the real problem here.

It sounds to me like the real problem is that management doesn't respect you as much as you think you deserve. In particular, it would be quite reasonable for a 35-person company to have a VP of Engineering. If that isn't you, then it'll end up being someone else that they hire in above you.

My recommendation is to be open and honest about your frustration with your manager, and if you don't see a path to being happy with your job without a huge equity/pay bump, just move on. There isn't going to be any easy, obvious solution here.

readme• 11 years ago

Dude. You make 165k. More money isn't going to make you happy. A job is a job, and you have a damn good one. What else is going on in your life besides that?

znpy• 11 years ago

This.

drugsAreBad0001• 11 years ago

I legitimately can't up vote this enough. What kind of shitty society do we live in where making an insane amount of money isn't good enough?!?

askafriend2• 11 years ago

It's not that insane an amount of money for the amount that he is contributing to his company and factoring in things like cost of living.

jfaucett2• 11 years ago

"A job is a job, and you have a damn good one"

Please don't forget the cost of living before assuming the OP is some privilegiado who is unhappy being filthy rich.

According to this (http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...) a 1 bedroom apartment outside the city runs 31.5k a year thats about 20% of OPs salary. If he wanted a 3 bedroom in the city it would run 78k a year. By comparison someone living in Berlin will pay about 8k a year for rent of a 1 bedroom in the city.

So his 165k is roughly like someone earning 40k a year in Berlin. This isn't exact of course because of other factors such as utilities, food, etc, but comparing these costs to other locations it does look to be more expensive on these factors as well.

smeyer• 11 years ago

This isn't exact of course

This is very far from exact. You're comparing a city with particularly high real estate costs to one with relatively low real estate costs (for the size of the city). Spending 20% of gross on rent is not particularly extreme, and factors like utilities, food, travel, and so on are not going to have remotely the multiplier that real estate does when comparing costs to Berlin.

Yes, 165k in SF is not like 165k in Berlin, but for a person without dependents it still leaves a lot of room for large savings or expensive luxuries. The median household income in SF is just $78k.

samfisher83• 11 years ago

Ok lets do some math.

Lets take out 40% for taxes. This is a high number since the the whole number isn't taxed at 40%. That leaves you about 120k. Supposed the OP has a 1br apt so 120-32=88K.

So 88K > (40K-8k). So some who is making 165k is pretty well off even in SF.

argonaut2• 11 years ago

I know fresh grads that make more than that in cash + stock + bonus (stock in a large public company, which is liquid). Of course, these are top students at top universities (and they don't have the startup upside), but still.

jfaucett2• 11 years ago

I've been through a similiar situation and ultimately decided to leave. For me it boiled down to my gut feeling and me not wanting to pour more of my heart and soul into something I couldn't be genuinely passionate about anymore (partially due to ISOs / salary / titles on the table).

My advice is to ask yourself some hard questions and then follow your gut feeling. If you are discontented you are not going to perform at your best, it will affect your life negatively, and this will only get worse with time. So ask yourself the hard questions. If nothing changes do you really want to stay there? If no, then what will have to change in order for you to stay and be happy? You know yourself, decide what it is that will make you happy and otherwise you would be happier leaving.

Remember its just a business transaction, they profit from your skills and labor and you profit from the money and titles and equity they give you in exchange for it. I have the feeling a lot of startups will come along with the stingy spiel, but they have to pay up for services like everyone else and if they aren't willing you move along, also equity and titles cost a startup only theoretically (if they ever liquidate which is a rare thing) so even stingy investors etc will probably be more willing to upgrade you here than in the salary department since that cost real money next month.

Good luck

chrisbennet• 11 years ago

Have you considered becoming a (co)founder in you own company, thus capturing more of the value you create?

Statistically, those ISOs won't be worth anything anyway and sticking around to see them vest may just mean you put off moving to on to a place where you are happier. One way to extract some value from that stock is to use it to negotiate a signing bonus at your next job.

vii• 11 years ago

Rationally, employees can get at most at their replacement cost, more or less. As you have built up experience in your present role and made yourself a 'key element', you should be compensated more highly than other companies will offer you for the same sort of work. If that's not the case, then you are right that you are underpaid - just accept one of those offers, or negotiate again on that basis. There are plenty of roles in the Bay Area where technical people can make more than 165k with salary being just a part of total compensation - and you can decide how any opportunities you can find line up with your current levels. If you can't get more elsewhere then you should feel better about it :)

You could try to demonstrate that you were a key value generator by doing a new startup without the other people who have a slice of this one :)

As to whether you deserve it or not, that's a tough one.

quickpost2• 11 years ago

I've been struggling with a decision about whether to leave consulting and join a startup as an early employee under similar terms. After reading your post and many of the comments within, I have been able to trust my gut a lot more confidently and stick with owning 100% of my own small operation. So at the very least take solace in the fact that your post helped others out in making better startup decisions!

dennybritz• 11 years ago

I don't get any satisfaction out of it because I feel like my slice of the pie is way smaller than what I think I deserve.

Have you considered that you may be looking at the issue from the wrong angle? You are unhappy with your work, and it may seem like compensation is the cause of that, but there's a good chance that it isn't. Getting a better title and more compensation may satisfy you for a while, but it's quite likely feel just the same after a little while.

Obviously I don't know anything about you or your work, but there are a few points that stood out to me:

- It seems like the company management does not respect you as much as you'd like them to and this makes you angry.

- You say that you are the most senior/experienced engineer in the company, so you're missing a chance to learn from someone else. Personally this has been a major incentive for me to stick with a company/team.

Then there's the question of what you actually want to be doing in the next 2-5 years and how your current job helps you towards that goal. Have you ever had that conversation with the founders? As someone else mentioned, being an employee is a business transaction. Money is part of what you get, but the perhaps more important part is how the company can help you achieve your professional goals. It seems like it really isn't in your case. Could this be the reason for why you feel demotivated?

karjaluoto• 11 years ago

My bet is that the emptiness you feel has little to do with a title, or how much you’re paid.

I suspect that it has everything to do with meaning/purpose.

Maybe you need to ditch the day job (regardless of consequence), move somewhere cheap, and make something you care about.

Some of us aren’t meant to be employees.

argonaut2• 11 years ago

So the main problem is you think you deserve more of the pie. But at the same time you think asking for more would be very draining. I don't see why you shouldn't ask for more, especially if you're even considering leaving.

Ask HN: Any advice for an early startup employee who feels screwed and lonely?

Related Stories