Ask HN: What languages used to write computer languages?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1042398

by gvb • 17 years ago

44 53 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

In the discusson on the Anic language http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1042122, drhowarddrfine asks "Is every language claiming to be faster than C now?"

The trivial answer is "Yes", but that answer raises two non-trivial and more interesting questions:

1) If the language is faster than C, why cross compile the language in C rather than natively compiling it (the acid test of a C compiler is if it can compile itself).

2) What computer languages are used to write computer languages?

Please expand and correct the list...

* C/C++: C

* Python: C, but also Java and C#

* Ruby: C, but also Java

* Perl: C

* Ada: C (gnat), it seems like there are Ada-based Ada compilers, but I am not sure

* Forth: essential words in assembly (sometimes C) and the bulk of it in Forth

* APL: C (?)

* Smalltalk: ?

* Fortran: Originally assembly? Fortran? C for GCC-based GNU Fortran

jacquesm• 17 years ago

There are 'bootstrap' languages that are mostly written 'in themselves', Forth (in your list already) and Lisp come to mind but there are plenty of others.

For performance reasons usually some of the more frequently used constructs will be re-written in a lower level language but there is no strict requirement to do so.

You could write any language in any other language, provided the first one is 'Turing complete'.

The only reasons people will pick a certain language to do their (language writing) work in is because of constraints.

edit:

Another common technique is the 'DSL', or domain specific language. Some programming languages (again, such as forth and lisp) lend themselves better to this technique than others. Basically the idea is to extend the language within the accepted syntax with new words that add the required functionality.

After that these additions can be used like any other language primitive, even if they sometimes will run a little slower because of internal overhead.

edit: Being programming 'in itself' is a sort of coming of age ritual for languages, it means you can now face the world entirely on your own terms instead of standing on top of the scaffolding provided by another language.

But not all languages are very well suited to this, the more specific to solving a particular problem a language is the less likely it is to be bootstrappable. And plenty of times it just isn't worth it, if you get adequate portability and performance from being written in C then that's fine too.

gvb3• 17 years ago

I suspect the availability of yacc/flex/bison and the free (as in freedom) Gnu Compiler Collection are also a pretty big influence. They give a (monetary) low cost of entry and a substantial amount of utility - I suspect a language inventor would prefer to invent the language and have the lexing, parsing, and code generation already taken care of by someone else.

eru5• 17 years ago

The parser combinators like Parsec (for Haskell) are also quite pleasant to work with.

daeken• 17 years ago

A good deal of higher-level languages are completely bootstrapping. C#, Nemerle, a good number of Scheme implementations, etc all compile themselves. You of course have to write your initial implementation in something else, but once that's done many compliers bootstrap themselves completely. In fact, when I design a language I write the smallest implementation possible before bootstrapping up (as I'm doing with Dynemerle, a reboot of the Nemerle project).

_cbsz• 17 years ago

Arc: MzScheme core, then Arc.

dkersten2• 17 years ago

A natively compiled language can be written in whatever language you feel is easiest to write the compiler in, so either the language you are most comfortable in or the language with the best parser/code gen libraries.

Once you can compile your languages source code, you could reimplement the compiler in your language, so that it is self hosted. Of course, you can't do this until you can compile your code, hence doing it in another language first.

If your language is interpreted or JIT compiled, running on some kind of VM, then obviously you won't be self hosting, so you need to use a lnaguage which is suitable for executing your language. Most people seem to choose C, I guess because its low level and they want to reduce overhead.

I myself find Python to be nice to write parsers and such in (and it plays nice with ANTLR), though my most successful code generator toy project was written in Clojure.

eru5• 17 years ago

And it would be actually a sensible thing to write a C compiler in Python. C is not a very nice language to write complicated programs in --- and compilers don't need C's speed. They just need to produce (correct and) fast code, but they do not need to run bleedingly fast.

smallblacksun• 17 years ago

Um, what? You want your compilers to be very fast, otherwise you end up wasting a lot of developer time (and thus money) waiting for compilation.

barrkel• 17 years ago

You got that backwards. For most development, you want a fast compiler but you don't care so much about the runtime speed, so long as its correct. Also, the more optimizing the compiler, the higher the probability that you'll hit bugs, affecting correctness.

silentbicycle3• 17 years ago

Lua and Awk are written in C. Scheme is often written in another Lisp or C, and many Prologs are written in C or Lisp (or other Prologs). Erlang's VM is written in C, though it was originally prototyped in Prolog. It's not unusual to write scaffolding for a language (i.e., an interpreter or a VM) in C, and then to write most of the rest of the language in itself. It can be a reality check on the expressiveness of the language.

If you want to learn how to implement a language, I'd suggest starting with a subset of Scheme or Forth. If you leave the advanced features (e.g. continuations) for later, they're really not that complicated. You're better off using a language with garbage collection and good string support, such as Python (though if you're already comfortable with them, OCaml and SML are particularly appropriate.) Mainly, you don't want to have to figure out garbage collection, complex parsing, etc. on top of everything else. Also, don't worry too much about efficiency when you're still feeling out a language's overall design.

There's a great explanation of a Forth here (http://www.annexia.org/forth), and pedagogical Scheme texts aren't hard to find. Christian Queinnec's _Lisp in Small Pieces_ is particularly good.

Also, claiming to be "faster than C" is one thing, but claiming to be "a faster way to get things done than C" is another. The difference is significant, particularly when you can prototype your ideas in something flexible, get hard data from a profiler, and then just move the hotspots out to C. C has its strengths, but exploratory programming is not one of them.

scott_s2• 17 years ago

I'm confused by question 1. I assume by saying "cross compile the language in C" you mean "the compiler for language X generates C code." If so, the answer is easy: to leverage the heavily used, portable and well optimized machine-code generators that exist for C.

gvb3• 17 years ago

Sorry, no, I meant that the compiler for language X is written in C.

Some languages have generated another language as the intermediate; RatFor to Fortran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfor and C++ to C for the first generation of C++ are the two I remember.

In my experience, this is a horrible thing to do because it is extremely difficult to find and fix the root cause for errors that turn up when compiling the intermediate language (e.g. Fortran or C).

silentbicycle3• 17 years ago

It's easier to compile to a (restricted subset of) C and let other compilers worry about code generation than to try to do the whole stack yourself. C, in particular, works passably as a "portable assembler". If you already compile to bytecode, for example, you could include the VM as a library and transliterate the bytecode to C.

scott_s2• 17 years ago

You may want to know that "cross compile" means that you compile for one architecture while on a different one. Like compiling for PowerPC while on an x86. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_compiler

Since that was clearly not what you meant, I was confused as to what you did mean. I wouldn't call what you intended "cross compile" - there's no "cross" to me. It's common to implement a higher-level language in a lower-level language.

berlinbrown2• 17 years ago

Factor: Factor and a little C

dkersten2• 17 years ago

The C has/is being replaced by C++

berlinbrown2• 17 years ago

* Python: C, but also Java and C# * Ruby: C, but also Java

Do you mean there are different implementations in other languages?

* Jython: Java * Cpython: C

? * Jython: Java

gvb3• 17 years ago

Yes.

Python

* CPython is the "original", written in C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPython.

* Jython is written in Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jython.

* IronPython is written in C#http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironpython.

* PyPy is written in Python (I had forgotten this) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PyPy.

Ruby

* The reference Ruby 1.8 (MRI) is written in C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_MRI.

* Ruby 1.9 is still written in C, but compiles to a bytecode VM (YARV) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YARV.

* JRuby is written in Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRuby.

* Rubinius is largely written in Ruby per Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubinius.

* IronRuby runs on the .net framework (I assume it is written in C#) http://www.ironruby.net/About and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronRuby.

jcdreads• 17 years ago

Here is a great description of how Alan Kay and friends wrote the Squeak (Smalltalk) VM using another (Apple) Smalltalk:

http://ftp.squeak.org/docs/OOPSLA.Squeak.html

Also consider that a bunch of languages (most?) consist of a kernel (or other VM) written in something native (like C) surrounded by a bunch of libraries written in the language itself. Off the top of my head: python, java, clojure, most schemes, etc. are like this.

For ridiculous exercises in bootstrapping minimalism, check out Ian Piumarta's work on Cola:

http://piumarta.com/software/cola/

http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf

http://piumarta.com/software/cola/colas-whitepaper.pdf

zitterbewegung• 17 years ago

Clojure: Java

Zak• 17 years ago

Clojure is largely written in Clojure, with some Java at the core. There's also a .NET port, which I assume replaces the Java with C#.

cmelbye• 17 years ago

Ruby has also been done in Objective-C, hasn't it?

mr_dbr• 17 years ago

http://www.macruby.org/ not sure if it's rewritten in ObjC or just integrated-with

cpr• 17 years ago

My impression is that it's mostly C and some Ruby, plus C++ for the parts that utilize LLVM.

When you're implementing something at the same level as Objective-C, you can't generally use Obj-C itself.

(Witness the Obj-C runtime, which is mostly C and a tiny bit of assembler.)

mhansen• 17 years ago

Javascript: C++ (TraceMonkey, Spidermonkey, V8), Java (Rhino) [EDIT: Sorry, C++, not C]

grayrest• 17 years ago

Tracemonkey and V8 are C++

anonjon• 17 years ago

lisp is written in lisp. (and sometimes C)

fadmmatt• 17 years ago

For implementing languages, I highly recommend Scheme, Haskell and Scala.

These languages are hell-on-wheels for tearing apart and transforming syntax trees.

I teach a compilers class, and I encourage my students to use a mixture of Scala and Scheme. If you're thinking about implementing a language, you might want to look at some of the blog posts I wrote for my students:

* A Scheme interpreter in Scala: http://matt.might.net/articles/denotational-interpreter-for-...

* A meta-circular Scheme interpreter: http://matt.might.net/articles/metacircular-evaluation-and-f...

* Compiling Scheme to C: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/

* Compiling Scheme to Java: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-to-java/

* Architectures for interpreters: http://matt.might.net/articles/writing-an-interpreter-substi...

eru5• 17 years ago

* Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours (using Haskell): http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_H...

arebop• 17 years ago

GHC, the Glasgow Haskell Compiler, is implemented in Haskell.

eru5• 17 years ago

And some Perl for evil mangling. (At least the last time I checked.)

Locke16892• 17 years ago

Well, just to be clear, GHC compiles to an intermediate stylized C form (hc files), which are then compiled with a C compiler.

hga2• 17 years ago

PreScheme has been used in some Scheme implementations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme

I've been looking into Lisp language implementation recently and it seems to have been somewhat influential, I've seen several references to "this is like PreScheme", most recently in Cola which jcdreads brought to our attention.

stan_rogers• 17 years ago

It would have been difficult to have written APL in C originally, what with the lack of time machines and all (APL was created in '57 as an abstract notational concept and first implemented in '64 and released in '65; C was created in '72). The interpreter was probably written in S/360 assembler -- just a guess based on the fact that similar but simpler list/vector operations implemented 15 years later in the Lotus Notes macro (formula) language required write-only C wizardry on a truly heroic scope. Somehow I don't see anyone doing it in FORTRAN or COBOL without periodic psychiatric intervention.

JadeNB• 17 years ago

A related question was explored on LtU recently: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3754.

cabalamat• 17 years ago

I'm implementing a language of my own design in Python right now. I chose Python because I'm familiar with it and I can piggyback on Python's strings, hash tables, and garbage collection.

jrockway• 17 years ago

You are forgetting the self-hosting language implementations, all of which are quite speedy:

* SBCL: SBCL

* GHC: GHC

* PyPy: Python

There are a lot of languages written in C because when those languages were written, that's all there was.

Language implementations can be faster than the language they are written in because that language is not used for the codegen. LLVM's C with JIT is "faster than C", for example.

ramanujan• 17 years ago

Is PyPy speedy nowadays?

capablanca• 17 years ago

Factor: C++ and Factor

petercooper• 17 years ago

Java's mentioned a few times in this list, but what's Java written in..? Well.. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/410320/what-is-java-writt...

hga2• 17 years ago

Off the top of my head:

Hotspot, the Sun production JVM, is written in C++ with a lot of inline assembly (hard to port).

Jikes RVM, perhaps the major research JVM, it metacircular, Java with C bootstrapping.

Jnode, an OS, uses Jikes replacing the C with assembly (x86).

Sun's Maxine research JVM is metacircular with C bootstrapping.

A large fraction of the other JVMs are written in C, sometimes C++, sometimes with Java as well.

aidenn0• 17 years ago

I'm used to compilers that are self-hosting. More recently there have been a swath that were written in C or C++, but this is mainly because to work on *nix, you will need to call out to a C library at some point, and writing it in C make implementing the FFI fairly trivial.

joe_the_user• 17 years ago

A lot of languages weren't written in pure c but involved a combination of c (or java) and a parser-generator like Yacc or Bison.

The process of implementing a language isn't really about breaking out an editor and a compiler and coding. Rather, language implementing about specifying a virtual machine, a grammar and various other meta-programming constructs. Thus "written in c" can a deceptive description.

Even a recursive-descent parser involves a process of transforming a syntax specification into a series of recursive function calls.

tsally• 17 years ago

Can't believe OMeta hasn't been mentioned yet: http://tinlizzie.org/ometa/. It's definitely the wrong choice for performance, but if you are experimenting with language implementation I don't think you can do much better.

OMeta's general-purpose pattern matching facilities provide a natural and convenient way for programmers to implement tokenizers, parsers, visitors, and tree transformers, all of which can be extended in interesting ways using familiar object-oriented mechanisms.

Here's a document detailing an OMeta program that translates textual representations of abstract syntax trees into assembly for the Intel 386: http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m2009011_chns_mng.pdf. In plain language, you've got is a mini Lisp like language that you can extend in an object orientated way.

baguasquirrel• 17 years ago

I remember at my last full-time job how we'd look at the python source whenever we couldn't figure out what the expected behavior ought to be (yay for python documentation... =P). Seeing this list, it makes one wonder about all those "Java schools" that don't teach C anymore.

gnosis• 17 years ago

OCaml. See:

One-Day Compilers or How I learned to stop worrying and love metaprogramming

http://www.venge.net/graydon/talks/mkc/html/mgp00001.html

xtho• 17 years ago

For describing a language, I'd use English if you want to reach an international audience.

I don't think a language can claim to be faster than C. But a specific interpreter/compiler can claim to be faster than a specific C compiler.

Locke16892• 17 years ago

Scheme is often used in prototype interpreters. I just wrote a very simple language grammar in Haskell, so I guess really "anything" can be an answer.

If you're asking about compilers , then it tends to be C (although LLVM is coming along nicely).

ThinkWriteMute• 17 years ago

Ruby is in C, C++, Ruby, and Objective-C.

rick_2047• 17 years ago

I think Smalltalk was self compiling?

Ask HN: What languages used to write computer languages?

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