My Internship Experiences at Pixar, Google, and Two Sigma

by ericjang • 11 years ago

138 67 11 years ago

This is a cool post, but I hope it doesn't get him blackballed by any of the mentioned companies.

Cookingboy3• 11 years ago

I highly doubt it will happen. He is very objective about the pros and cons, in fact if I were running the internship program at those places I'd take these as valuable feedback.

And he put all of them under a positive light anyway (probably well deserved too).

Cookingboy3• 11 years ago

Very objective write up Eric. I'm an Xoogler with good friends working/worked at Two-Sigma, and it's pretty much what you described. Good luck on whatever you decide to do, don't stress out too much on your first job choice, there are no wrong decisions here.

scrumper2• 11 years ago

The writer seems mature and should go far.

If he wants advice from someone in finance, I'd steer him towards Pixar. The math might be harder and the prestige may be greater at the hedge fund, but making beautiful things is inherently satisfying. Sweating to make a big number get a bit bigger isn't good for the soul in the long term.

jkyle• 11 years ago

Sweating to make a big number get a bit bigger isn't good for the soul in the long term.

Depends on how beautiful you find the numbers you're using to get there.

edit

To clarify, there are personalities that derive quite a bit of pleasure from the puzzle without much regard for the picture it makes in the end.

scrumper2• 11 years ago

For sure. But I thought he seemed pretty struck by the power of the art Pixar was making, talking about tearing up in the cinema. He made a few other comments about meaningfulness too - like not wanting to be eating stuff from Slice while cranking away on some obscure thing.

But as others say it's totally his decision. He's clearly smart and fortunate; I'm happy for him.

santaclaus• 11 years ago

The math might be harder and the prestige may be greater at the hedge fund

Ehhhh, Black–Scholes vs. Navier-Stokes. Six of one, half a dozen of another...

mathattack• 11 years ago

Yes - remarkably, options are priced using the mathematical physics of heat diffusion. (& GPUs are used to speed up the calculations)

kzhahou• 11 years ago

This guy integrates!

programmer_14522• 11 years ago

Sweating to make a big number get a bit bigger isn't good for the soul in the long term.

I've been working as a programmer for the last 5-6 years, and I strongly disagree.

Pixar, Google and Two Sigma, and many similar companies in these industries, are ultimately absolutely pointless and empty. Entertainment (distraction), ads (mind pollution), and arbitrage (stealing) is essentially what they do. Working for any of them will become mind-numbingly boring and damaging to the soul very soon.

There are only two things that keep me motivated; (1) hard problems, and (2) money. (1) are hard to come by, most of my time I spend dealing with stupid problems caused by stupid people. (2) is why I work on pointless problems, the more I earn the sooner I can retire to do something actually useful.

Therefore, I think that working for a hedge fund in a money-generating role can do wonders to one's motivation; the better you are, the more you earn. Not many roles, in general and in software development, offer such direct payoff.

rwallace• 11 years ago

Be that as it may, it's worth noting Google does other things as well. You could always try to get a job there working on self-driving cars (saving lives) or solar energy (saving the world).

lotsofpulp• 11 years ago

I would not categorize being able to search for almost any piece of information in the world within a second to be pointless and empty. Nor would I think that for digital maps, real time traffic updates, email with more storage than you know what to do with, smartphones software...etc.

The revenue model and the incentives it creates for certain aspects of the above creations is not ideal, I agree, but that's a separate issue than these companies' creations are absolutely pointless. It is a valid reason to not work for them though, as you are just advancing their advertisement driven business.

remyp• 11 years ago

arbitrage (stealing)

You've never bought something for less than it's worth or sold something for more than it's worth?

Cookingboy3• 11 years ago

Holy crap, what generalization!

Do you honestly only see art's place in human society and our history as nothing more than distraction? Do you honestly believe Google only has done mind pollution to the world? Are all financial services nothing but stealing to you.

Your above statement only shows one thing: you are either extremely ignorant or you are extremely sanctimonious, probably both.

You are fully entitled to your own opinions, but you don't have the right to belittle other people's passion and interest.

To be honest what motivates you seems like nothing but vanity to me, good for you I guess, but I'm glad there are lots of people who don't share the same mind set.

acchow• 11 years ago

Pixar, Google and Two Sigma, and many similar companies in these industries, are ultimately absolutely pointless and empty. Entertainment (distraction), ads (mind pollution)

I'm curious what you consider "worthwhile" endeavors, both personally (personal satisfaction/happiness) and globally (something society should strive for), and how or if they differ.

drzaiusapelord• 11 years ago

but making beautiful things is inherently satisfying.

I like, perhaps love Pixar, but I'm not sure if I'd call, what are essentially kids movies, "beautiful things." Especially when a lot of the art design is fairly formulaic (see the Pixar face: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/inside-out/disney-pixar-char...) Story-wise there are maybe four kid movie plots that get recycled as well. I could see a very smart and creative person feeling hamstrung in such an environment. Especially considering as kids movies they cannot explore adult topics and will always be fairly limited in scope.

I also dislike that idea that automation, code, math, finance, etc can't be beautiful on its own. I'd love it if we could sell young people on the beauty of these things. Getting things like this right can be incredibly satisfying. I know its a hard sell, but most thing worthwhile are. Honestly, the worlds need less impassioned animators and comic book artists and rock stars. It needs more people able to solve hard problems, sometimes in fairly unsexy ways to an audience that may not even understand what the problem was or how difficult it was to solve. Entertainment shouldn't be a brain drain from other fields.

kbenson2• 11 years ago

I'm not sure how I would classify Toy Story 3 under any recycled "kids movie" plots. The ending (the real ending, not the climax, as described in the article) is one of the most poignant moments in film I can recall. Similarly, Wall-E does a good job illustrating the human need for companionship. And the need for purpose within our lives. And at the very shallowest and most obvious level, over-consumption. Pixar often makes very "smart" animated movies, and they generally work at quite a few levels, in my opinion.

Especially considering as kids movies they cannot explore adult topics and will always be fairly limited in scope.

I disagree. I've seen many masterful "childrens" movies that have done masterful jobs at exploring adult concepts, as long as by "adult" you don't just mean sexuality. While childrens' movies may be constrained on some axis, they are often freer on others. Additionally, there is the chance to speak to people that wouldn't normally go to a movie about some of these adult messages, or to reach them when they aren't expecting it and are less cynical. Who goes to see an animated film about a family of super heroes to see a touching rendition of mid-life crisis?

yellowstuff2• 11 years ago

Sweating to make a big number get a bit bigger isn't good for the soul in the long term.

Speak for yourself. I've worked in finance for more than 10 years and like my job. Most of the time I work on interesting problems with smart people under good work conditions, and get paid well to do it.

It helps that I work in an area of finance I feel does have positive social value, although doing work I am good at and find interesting is more of a motivation.

PopeOfNope• 11 years ago

Do you feel comfortable discussing your work a bit more? It's not often I see the words "finance" and "positive social value" used in the same sentence.

gavazzy• 11 years ago

Mirror (down at 4:54EST 8/17/2015)

http://pastebin.com/8t0BquQg

thenobsta• 11 years ago

^^^ This is why I love HN.

Thanks!

justizin• 11 years ago

Website over quota. :/

jfb• 11 years ago

This made me laugh:

What I did in my spare time Browse the intranet for juicy info Browse the intranet for juicy info Browse the intranet for juicy info

ericjang6• 11 years ago

Hi all, author here. thx for the upvotes. Webpage is back up.

e40• 11 years ago

"If you care most about raising a family, work life balance (i.e. work the least hours) and job security, you really can't go wrong with Google."

This is such at odds with everything I've heard and read about Google, I'd like to know if there's a typo in that sentence, and if not, how to you square the wider perception with your perception?

idunning• 11 years ago

I also interned there, and my team was working 50ish hour weeks on a relatively flexible schedule (e.g. come in 7am-11am, leave 3pm-7pm). Search-related team. I know some teams might be working far more, but that wasn't common as far as I could tell.

jpatokal2• 11 years ago

Unlike (say) Amazon, Google does not require you to work long hours, and in many teams it's actively discouraged. Now of course you get some competitive types who like to burn the midnight oil in a mostly misguided effort to get promoted, but these are the exception rather than the rule, and Google's promotion processes are explicitly geared to attempt to reward initiative and results, not hours worked.

Disclaimer: I work at Google, pretty much 9 to 5. But it's a huge company and I'm sure you can find pathological microcultures somewhere.

ericjang6• 11 years ago

All I had to compare Google to were my limited experiences in the other two. I thought Google was the most laid-back of the three.

No doubt you've heard about dinner cafes opening late to keep employees at their desks, but the reality is that a lot of people's productivity slows down from 5-6 anyway (that was ping pong hour for me). Go! cafe is open all day, and lots of people grab a sandwich before skedaddling at 5pm sharp.

Maybe there's more pressure at some teams to put in more hours. I have no data on that.

I think overall vacation benefits, hours, and pa/maternity leave are slightly better, but I'm not certain.

BrandonY• 11 years ago

Googler here. Having just returned to the office from my second paternity leave (for which I was granted up to 12 paid weeks plus a small "baby bonding" bonus), I can say that my org, at the very least, has so far been extremely comfortable for raising a family. Like the author points out, Google's a big company and your mileage may vary, but I have found it to be fantastic for me in this regard.

Of course, I originally worked for Amazon.com, so my baseline for a good work/life balance may be skewed, and I don't work in Mountain View, so I can't speak to the culture at headquarters.

jsolson• 11 years ago

This completely aligns with my experience working at Google. I work roughly a 9-5; most of my coworkers do the same. Sometimes I will read e-mail on my phone and triage it, but I never reply. My laptop comes home with me out of habit but very rarely leaves my messenger bag.

Maintaining healthy work-life balance has also been pushed by the company fairly heavily in my time here. Yes, there are workaholics, but in my experience they are not the norm. Moreover, it doesn't seem to give them an edge over those of us who prefer a saner schedule.

mehrdada3• 11 years ago

you'll see lots of edges going from Goldman, Microsoft, Google, and Facebook to Two Sigma. There are very few edges going the other way.

Perhaps one reason for it that they don't advertise is the ridiculous non-competes that their employees have signed and it's limited their future career options. I have first hand experience with this. They had the audacity to ask me sign a 18-month IP assignment (basically with FROR), a 1-year non-compete, and a fucking 5-year non-solicit (much stricter than the non-solicit in a Google's contract) clause. They want slaves, not employees. Of course I threw up on that contract, especially considering their history of bringing criminal lawsuits against their former employees. Avoid.

ninetax• 11 years ago

Sorry, what is FROF?

mehrdada3• 11 years ago

(Misspelled, corrected.) "First right of refusal". I'm not sure if it is the right phrase in the context of IP assignment, but it was a good analogy to what they asked: basically they'd say whatever you'd invent in the next 18-months after your employment, you have to show us first and we decide if it is related to our business and therefore ours.

kyushiro4• 11 years ago

I went from TS to Google and personally know quite a few: - They only enforce non-compete if you actually go to a competitor (like rentech, KCG, Citadel). You also get paid your normal salary during those time (just to chill around). One of my friends is using that to travel all over the place. If you go to other tech company like FB or Google then you can start the next day (which I did) - I only have 2 years non-solicit so may be that's a recent change. It doesn't affect you that much though (you can't refer people you know from TS or give them recommendation, that's it). - If you actually follow the law suits, those people actually tried to upload model to external servers. If you try to do that with Google's HIP code I'm pretty sure they would do the same to you.

I picked TS offer over Google offer before and now that I'm on the other side I regretted nothing. Both are great place to work.

PhasmaFelis• 11 years ago

They only enforce non-compete if you actually go to a competitor (like rentech, KCG, Citadel).

Does the contract say that?

Never trust anyone who asks you to sign away your firstborn, but says "Don't worry, it's just legal boilerplate, we don't enforce it!" If it's not enforced, it shouldn't be in the contract.

foobarqux2• 11 years ago

Why did you leave?

mehrdada3• 11 years ago

I don't want to engage in legal interpretation of the contract here, but based on readings of my contract on my side, I feel like making a comment:

They only enforce non-compete if you actually go to a competitor (like rentech, KCG, Citadel).

Not what the contract says. Just like most noncompetes is much more loosely defined. When it comes to sue, almost everything in technology can be argued to be related to everything else. Google or anyone running an ad exchange/real-time auction can definitely be argued to be a competitor.

You also get paid your normal salary during those time (just to chill around).

Not factually correct. You only get your base salary which can be a small portion of the total compensation.

One of my friends is using that to travel all over the place.

Well, if you enjoy a forced vacation, good for you. I don't think everyone does.

If you go to other tech company like FB or Google then you can start the next day (which I did)

Even if they ignore the explicit non-compete clause, the separate IP assignment provision is troublesome for the target company. I wonder how the destination company would react to that if they read it carefully. For me, the period of that even exceeded the explicit non-compete, and that was super problematic. Also, they have this weird clause to extend the noncompete period if you are found in violation of it, which makes zero logical sense in a fair contract. In effect, it also has the side effect of being a theoretical legal risk to you, forever, even beyond the explicit non-compete period (due to the possibility of recursive extension).

It doesn't affect you that much though (you can't refer people you know from TS or give them recommendation, that's it).

Not true. The non-solicit covers investors as well as employees. You are not allowed to solicit or take money any of their investors for any purpose, which means you cannot start a simple tech startup. Since you have no idea who their investors are, you are risking a violation by talking to any investor. Even the language of the employee non-solicit clause is much stricter than Google's.

If you actually follow the law suits, those people actually tried to upload model to external servers. If you try to do that with Google's HIP code I'm pretty sure they would do the same to you.

There are two lawsuits I am aware of. This is factually incorrect about one of them. For the other one, if you actually read the documents and testimonies on both sides, it is hard to reach the conclusion that it was anything but a non-compete issue. Based on what I read in the media, it seems the judge in NY court apparently didn't feel like the fact that they made a criminal lawsuit out of it was just, so I have serious doubts about the speculation that Google would have done the same in this exact scenario. Of course, this is my interpretation. I encourage people who are interested to look it up themselves on the court website. You can find an older version of the employment agreement there as well (mine was definitely worse). It's an amusing read, actually. It shows how arrogant and evil an employment contract can get:

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/CaseSearch

Solve the captcha and search for Two Sigma Investments. Specifically, Exhibit B under Kang Gao's lawsuit is an older version of their employment agreement, but it's close enough I think.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and the above is simply my opinion.

chrisbroadfoot• 11 years ago

At Google and Two Sigma, interns are kept in an "intern container"

As an employee of Google who has hosted numerous interns, I can say this is not true. Interns have broad access to information at Google.

RealityVoid• 11 years ago

I am amazed at how awesome the projects page of his website is. I see so many successful people on here, I just... wow..

CardenB2• 11 years ago

I had a similar reaction. It's incredible. He definitely deserves his success.

Someone like this working on iOS Play Books is the biggest downside to working at Google.

rajacombinator• 11 years ago

The author was definitely most passionate about Pixar. But he'll probably decide based on prestige and go with Two Sigma. For most programmers, Google is probably the best of the three for future career opportunities.

otisfunkmeyer• 11 years ago

i use ios play books! your work is not in vain!

Rainymood• 11 years ago

How do you even manage to land such internships? It baffles me. How can somebody after their first year of CS bachelor's education get an internship with Pixar, and then with Google in the second year, and then with (bloody) TWO SIGMA in the third year? Stuff like that is just ... incomprehensible here in Europe (Netherlands). Crazy!

ericjang6• 11 years ago

It helps to be a student studying at an elite american university - pedigree opens a lot of doors, for better or worse. Also, I had a shit ton of luck with interviews and recommendations.

jacques_chester• 11 years ago

you'll see lots of edges going from Goldman, Microsoft, Google, and Facebook to Two Sigma. There are very few edges going the other way.

Is this surprising? Big tech companies employ orders of magnitude more technologists. In many small tech companies you'd expect to find a similar pattern.

My Internship Experiences at Pixar, Google, and Two Sigma

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