ziaddotcom

Fair enough, but I enjoyed the talk as is. I tried to give sources in defense of UncleMeat but I can only overcome my own bias so much.

I'm not interested in getting suckered into believing some randall carlson gobbledygook, the type I might leap to assume UncleMeat would find quite problematic.

I just think UncleMeat initially came in, said something along the lines "this is bad, don't do this, ask people who know better" and it has been made clear they had the capacity to contribute more that what read to me as nothing more than the logical fallacy that is an appeal to authority. They have clarified their position enough to where I can no longer be left with such impression.

The use of the phrase "a lot" by me in this context isn't really helping. I should have at least said "for a powerpoint."

Unfortunately as far as I can tell, we don't have a circuit of public intellectuals, who happen to be historians, giving well thought through talks to lay people. We have ted talks on a good day, and those are often filled with dumb things said by smart people who should know better.

You and I haven't even touched with a ten foot pole the other side of the coin of that "Western History" implies. I won't attempt to in this thread either.

The Jstor article that wikipedia cites as evidence of Petrarch "being the first to develop the concept of 'the dark ages'"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2707236?seq=1

The same wikipedia article says that Petrarch noted for initiating the Italian Renaissance by way of rediscovering letters of Cicero who happens to have died in 43bc. He is then credited with founding Renaissance Humanism in the context of the above.

The above claims seem some plausible given the summary texts that mention Petrarch given by the page on Humanism given by the Library of Congress

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/vatican/humanism.html

One recontextualization of the concept of the dark ages of the type implied by UncleMeat (my interpretation what was implied, not UncleMeats) is given by this publication by The University of Michigan.

https://www.press.umich.edu/15299

This is all very interesting, but I'd like to point out absolutely none of it seems to automatically leave the dilettante historian like myself from coming away with the impression that knowledge, scientific or otherwise, has not been lost in a meaningful way and thus throughout history did not necessitate some obsessed persons to resuscitate it.

I think UncleMeat's wife probably knows a hell of a lot more than I do about history, and contextualizing whatever horseshittery that has been propagated about the notion of the dark ages. The problem is rather than provide a link to a book or an article in refutation to Jonathan Blow or myself, UncleMeat has sort of just rattled off some history and said their wife is a history professor. Hardly what I think UncleMeat would have been satisfied as enough scholarly rigor for Jonathan Blow his talk with remotely the same framing. The retort along the lines of "but this is just a lil ole internet forum" goes out the window, when the call for rigor was made on said forum by said person.

I would suggest UncleMeat just advocate that people like Jonathan Blow take the history out entirely, and argue why this contemporary technology isn't good enough relative to our resources and skills.

I honestly don't see how you can't see how the text in you provided response to Jonathans talk, which he obviously put a lot of time and research in, no matter how misguided and poorly executed in your or your wife's estimation, wouldn't be massively hypocritical.

No worries if you didn't catch that I was the same person.

Your catch proves that issue is not remotely settled, and to my mind, indicates that more rigorous counsel with historians will only add depth to debate, rather than resolve it.

I think you've just committed a sort of armchair dilettante history off the top of the dome with lack of reference to a scholarly source of History you accused Jonathan of doing.

meheleventyone has demonstrated how easily even just referencing the article I myself posted could undermine my argument.

These historians of science that technologists avoid consulting in your estimation, are they going to refute the dark ages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

"The term employs traditional light-versus-darkness imagery to contrast the era's "darkness" (lack of records) with earlier and later periods of "light" (abundance of records).[3]"

Not having records being categorized metaphorically as darkness, and more records as "Enlightenment" is pretty high regard for a word used the same way in the contemporary context as something an accountant or dentist keeps in a filing cabinet.

I'd say these "historians of science" you speak of would corroborate that the lost works of Euclid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid

and the near permanent loss of Plato's works to the whole of Europe for hundreds if not over a thousand years as, uh, kind of a big deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato#Textual_sources_and_hist...

Yes you grokked my point quite well. I wrote a long rant about how I've never had access to Amiga hardware, but I think I owe your pithiness some pithiness in return.

I think Godot has only recently become mature enough to be remotely comparable with unity etc.

From the Godot download page:

"Godot is currently not code-signed for macOS. See the last section of this page for instructions on allowing Godot to run anyway. Alternatively, you can install Godot from Steam to work around this." So what does that leave, Windows and Linux on x86-64?

Isn't this the kind unjustified hoops that Jonathan is criticizing, that people criticize Apple for not making it viable for a clearly legitimate OSS project to have to deal with? It definitely isn't something that would make me confident recommending a middle school game programming class to depend on working one semester to the next.

Fair enough. I think you've called me out reasonably there.

I still don't think you've addressed my core point, and it's quite probable I wasn't clear enough to make that possible.

My white pixel example was referencing the talk, where I interpreted Jonathan saying almost verbatim about the barriers to just lighting up a single pixel on a modern computer. I made the assumption that everything he opines on publicly is in the context of him making games.

Is this whole stack overflow thread just a bunch of masochistic programmers, or is it needly complex to achieve consensus on how to plot a pixel in a browser canvas? I'll take responsibility for begging the question in jest. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4899799/whats-the-best-w...

If one wants to start the game they are going to make in the same engine the are going to finish making it in, for most people, unity is going to be worth the gigabyte download. If you just want to teach kids html/css, the server stack in python, and how to change the color of one pixel in the browser is lesson one day one on a raspberry pi, fantastic. If one wants to write a mario clone and ship it in electron, bravo.

You're right, but most speakerphones still aren't even properly full duplex, much less utopian zoom software for apex cyber virtual orchestras.

The amount of times I'm tripping up on my own words because the last thing I said is blaring out a friends/family mobile speakerphone and then back into the mic is disappointing on all levels, to say the least.

And how is that meaningfully different or better than using unity to ship an executable?

I thought your whole point was that everyone already has a stable browser, and shipping games as some bare metal or in some half bare metal form is really the developers imposition if the game could have just as well run in a browser.

Bad software and bad UI corrupts usb drives all day long in 2021.

Does anyone seriously write games for the browser anymore? Can Jonathan target the browser to make Braid, and seriously expect any commercial success?

Maybe you'll think "What about Celeste?" at which point you'll have only proven both of our points equally at best.

I don't make the argument that they were more reliable now or then than today's PC, they almost weren't and aren't. The problem is how we got more reliable pcs today is in the context of people who had access to both. Some generation in the future won't have access to living human beings for the day the first electronic computer came into existence as we ourselves have access to now.

Notice I said "even if left untouched." Perhaps that was too charitable, as these retropcs, without memory protection, would often crash if metaphorically "touched." It would happen often with productivity apps, much less so with games. As time has gone on with pcs, this seems to have flipped, a fair trade for the time being.

I think I know what you meant, but in America Anglo-American would either imply White non Hispanics (as opposed to White Hispanics or White descendants of French first speaking people who were white) or it would mean virtually anyone born in America or elsewhere whose first language was English and is now an American citizen. In any event, virtually all 2nd generation American undergrads would fit the latter definition, and the former definition would not imply a racist scholarship by your definition, but a prejudice against non anglophone white people and non anglophone non whites alike. Given that Harvard and its scholarships almost certainly assume near native proficiency in English, I'm not sure if you argued my point or yours more effectively to be honest.

In the example of your Amiga, your hard drive failed, but it probably would still boot right into any game from any floppy that didn't require workbench to have been booted from floppy or HD. The game could very well have been written in workbench booted from workbench/assembler from floppy.

The same game, replicated in Unity, requires a several gigabyte download just for the developer to light up a white pixel on a black background in Unity.

Is the juice of Unity worth the squeeze? It depends on the game I think. Using Unity to get a Super Meat Boy clone on a Nintendo switch starts to ride the line of absurdity (i.e. using a massively complex and capable game engine to make a knock off of a beefed up version of a flash game that was paying homage to games written in 6502 assembly and booted instantly and never crashed).

I'm not a musician, but I interpreted it like this:

Lets say the delay is 15 seconds, you hear the composite, including your part delayed, and you "think, cool, I played the right thing at the right time, I'll keep going with my same assumptions" or you hear "my part was way off, but the rest sounded decent enough, better do something different."

The part where everyone is just playing terribly isn't a concern or doesn't manifest because you've got a bunch of intermediate or better musicians playing.

I agree, and I think this talk and HN post make a good compliment to the Retrocomputing article and discussion on HN a few days ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25714719

Jonathan does a better job than I did explaining the premise of how retrocomputing isn't just a means to nostalgia, but a means to make sure and verifying we've improved personal computer hardware/software since the initial boom. Emulators don't give us the insight into the whole stack or understanding on the true reliability of these old systems.

As Jonathan says, if our laptops today aren't capable of 99.999 percent uptime, then none of the software runnning on it can be either.

In the days of the Amiga or the Archimedes, it was quite possible to boot entire app or os/app combo and just leave the computer on indefinitely, without it crashing itself even if untouched.

It is interesting as many times an angle on this subject comes up in the last 5-10 years, no one has been able to dig up a copy of the original versions and boot them and take screenshots.

I assume Vygr has at least a working copy of a Taos derivative or Taos itself (maybe not the working source code) but doesn't share screenshots of it working because it could put ChrysalLisp in a greyer area potentially to Cloanto.

From what I've been able to find on the internet, it seems like Taos in its Amiga Anywhere incarnation can be resuscitated/cobbled together from contemporaneous Gnu tools for amiga (I found some that were downloadable), some specific things that were bespoke to the grid computing concept (it was inconclusive to me what these were), and the demos that Chrysalisp has replicated (I wasn't able to find these that could be distinguished from regular opengl demos for amiga).

Allow me to steelman Grustaf's position as I understand it relative to zacmcloud who seems to think Grustaf shares roughly the same view as theirs. Grustaf is the type of person who would not refer to anyone as "trailer trash" even in jest or to quote someone, because Grustaf is of of the opinion that they act and are colorblind, and has behaved in such a way even in the thread by using colorblind language not to sanitize their speech, but because their use of language attempts to practice what it preaches. Grustaf would argue something like that if we seek an equitable and just society in America, [Grustaf self identified as European, giving no indication of race] then America should emulate Europe where such equity, equality, and social programs should be administered on the basis of economic need and the laws and orgs should not resort to racial language and framing altogether, because it should be based on economic or human needs that should be readily apparent with no need to poll or take into account skin color.

To steelman Grustaf further, I suppose Grustaf doesn't see an irony that dark skinned grapes aren't even allowed to be called Champagne, because Grustaf would say that grapes are not people, and that sparkling red wine made in Champagne tastes entirely different, but were it to taste the same, then the red Champagne and the white Champagne would almost certainly be given equal shelfspace and cost roughly the same if made by the same winery. Grustaf would on the other hand say that human beings transcend such issues, and certainly any person of any color can be and achieve and have the same intelligence and thoughts as any other so long as they are given equal opportunity. Grustaf believes that what Apple has done here is erode the principle of equal opportunity in attempt to try to provide equal opportunity.

I tend to think Grustaf might still think that if they were an American living in the country, but based on what Grustaf has said, they would be equally shocked at how not universal our basic social services are, even to elites. Grustaf would say "All men are created equal" should be made true in America so much so that racial language need no longer apply.

I just happen to find that either naive, or not pragmatic enough given the state of America in 2020. I can give Grustaf the benefit of the doubt, to a degree, because they admit to not being an American and seem to imply they don't live in America. It is easy to see how they do not have a full picture, and they admitted to as such.

I happen to feel that Apple's move is their best intentioned pragmatism to take a stand for something.

Zacmcloud on the other hand seems to have no such positions as above, and calls people "trailer trash" in jest. If zacmcloud is referring to me as the type of person who thinks any Whites are "trailer trash" let me correct the record. If working class Whites in Appalachia or Detroit were given access to an elite education through social programs, I'd be all for it, and presumably so would Grustaf. We just disagree that racial language in such initiatives kills the intiatives altogether. One reason being is American descendants of slaves aren't given popularized names for their heritage like Appalachia, and such terms typically exclude such people implicitly or explicitly in their definition, and often not by the people who coin the terms, but by the people who apply them. In my view, Grustaf's position is untenable in America at this time in the same way that if MLK's I have a dream speach would have been unintelligible had he not kept the words Black and White in.

"I have a dream that one day little black boys and girls will be holding hands with little white boys and girls." MLK

Someone maybe believe MLK could have said "of all races" and accomplished the same thing. To that position I say, then why wasn't "All men are created equal" sufficient to address slavery, much less racial inequality in America.

Addressing such issues will take time and ideas, and even when race has been transcended, I think it is a fair bet that class will not have been. And by the way, MLK spoke about that increasingly towards his later years, and soon after he was assassinated.

Who is they? Me? I can't answer a question directly when you don't ask it directly. At least Grustaf and I have the fortitude to post with an account that wasn't created on the same day as the comment. Grustaf didn't address my question about high school directly, but zacmcloud, feel free to post a direct question to me and I'll reply. I can't read your mind, but your framing doesn't seem to match Grustaf in any meaningful way. If anything, Grustaf and I are finding a narrowing spectrum of disagreement, whereas your post is mostly a trite argument made against corporate PR of all kinds.

Using words in a non racial way will not automatically deploy egalitarianism and meritocracy throughout the universe.

You say that like it is going to be written once and for all with an instruction manual. America uses a common law system and case precedent over time.

You seem rather concerned with college admissions, where is your concern for the fact that many if not most elite public American high schools would be out of reach for racial minorities even if their child has has perfect grades since Kindergarden. These kids can't simply 'apply' to whichever high school in the country they please.

In Europe it is illegal to label a wine Champagne if the grape is the wrong color or not grown in a particular bespoke part of France. Yet, you are baffled the line for racial equity in America is somewhat gray, absurd.

The legal limits of what? Market segmentation relative to race in a retail environment?

Yes it is illegal to block someone from a coffee shop based on their race.

When we say "Black Church" in America, we don't mean a church for Blacks only, we mean churches that historically arose because other races would not allow Blacks in their congregation (be it illegal to discriminate or not). There is no connotation that a "Black Church" wants to exclude other races.

If the investment precluded any participation by Caucasians (which it doesn't) can you think of a way that investing 100MM in "Black and Brown businesses" actually delivers returns well in excess of 100MM?

It's almost as if investing in communities that have been underserved, could somehow, trickle through the economy as a whole at a disproportionally high rate of return. You know, as opposed to investing it where monetary wealth is already largely concentrated.

In what way does Apple giving 10MM to Harlem Capital restrict people who are not Black or Brown people from the opportunity to pitch their fund.

https://harlem.capital/pitch/

The first of their five pillars:

"We invest in founders from all backgrounds, genders and walks of life"

Maybe a fee waiver for oss with certain licenses and dev accounts for .edu addresses with a couple other ID requirements would be a good start.