rundmc

What's the use case for a tontine?

Is there any way for immigrants to avoid the 27 vaccines mandated by the CDC?

Well we will all die eventually.

Perhaps it's better to say that:

"With a tontine, others of the same age and sex bet that you’ll die before them".

You will enjoy playing with this then:

https://tontine.com/lifetime-income-calculator/#tontinator

I look forward to your thoughts

Great entertainment although the Simpsons did the best fictional Tontine IMHO:https://tontine.com/videos/simpsons/

That said, each Last Will & Testament creates the same scenario and (unlike in a Tontine) you typically know who you are in the Will alongside but this still doesn't seem to result in a spate of murder cases either.

In theory yes, but in practice, no such cases ever existed.

A good example is that the collapse of Swiss Air created am accidental Tontine among its pension beneficiaries. Rather than trying to bump each other off, they meet up every year to hear to jointly toast the good news about their rising income: https://tontine.com/news/swissair-the-accidental-tontine/

Good point. I mean retirement tontines and tontine trust funds that pay members an income for life secured against hard assets rather than ROSCA tontines which are community savings vehicles designed for short term borrowing between members.

There are versions of this 'ROSCA' Tontine in most countries and continents in the world. In the past when formed among strangers they have proven to be super susceptible to scams.

Where they work is when each member of the group is known to each other and therefore would lose social status by defaulting on their obligations.

The benefit of these arrangements when run properly is that instead of saving $10 per month and after a year having the $120 to buy a productive asset (let's say a cow), they can get the $120 up front from the Tontine and pay the money back to the community group out of the earnings from the milk etc.

The persistance of these schemes everywhere indicates that this is a valuable means for the less well off to gain access to lump sum amounts for purchases without paying interest. Not everyone will be happy about the last part of course.

Ahead of the launch of the first Tontine company in over 100 years, we have heard similar comments from many parents and for that reason have now created the Tontine Trust Fund.

The regular Tontine Trust is for parents that want to avoid the risking of running out of money in old age and becoming a financial burden on their children.

The Tontine Trust Fund is for parents that want to set aside an inheritance for their spouse or children now which they can configure to start paying the child a monthly income for the rest of their life starting at age X. This reduces the concern of parents that they will pass on a chunk of the inheritance to children that will 'blow the money' instead of making it last them for life.

Also, FYI: a) Research from the insurance industry indicates that tontiners/annuitants spend double what they would without having a lifetime income, thereby enabling a better quality of life in retirement. b) The Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, alma mater of Einstein and 28 other Nobel Prize Winners, has produced research showing that a retirees pension wealth is enhanced by 87% with zero added risk upon moving their savings into a Tontine, indicating that the gain is not 'marginal'.

All in all, the Tontine enables you to save a little less yet still spend more.

As the founder of the first Tontine company in over 100 years, I cannot agree more.

Well insurance is in case something you don't want happens (die young) whereas a tontine is in case something you do want (live long) happens.

I'd call that a major difference but then again I'm biased.

FYI, after looking at about 20 banks we opted to go with Amnis in CH which uses Currency Cloud as its backbone.

Their UI is excellent and I've just noted that they have a double-sided reward for new clients such that if you register with amnis using a referral code (e.g. mine: 08e57b) and make your first transaction, they will pay you CHF 200.

You can sign up directly here https://app.amnistreasury.com/create-an-account.

I've been with them since the beginning and have had my suggestions included in the UI (e.g. account nicknames) but as far as I can tell they're in some sort of freefall.

Something has gone badly wrong in there and the only answer is to close the accounts and move away asap. That's what I'm almost finished doing for my 4 companies and shortly my personal account.

"inverse life insurance" that's an interesting way to describe a tontine

He essentially admitted this in recent calls so it's a 'safe' charge that the SEC used to get him arrested in Bahamas and presumably his personal assets will also now be frozen while they assemble the rest of the consumer fraud and other charges.

Perhaps you should send your supporting evidence to the UK government because right now they are going all in on shifting the pensions industry to a Tontine style CDC model. The email of The Pension Regulator is report@tpr.gov.uk

Don't forget to come back here to update your comment once you get a response.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/20c7f443-en/1/3/5/index....

The OECD has just published it's updated Pensions Outlook which explains to governments how to implement Asset Backed Tontine style pensions to make the global pensions sector more financially robust and to better serve the needs of retirees.

The team here at Tontine Trust (https://tontine.com) are committed to adding a "Proof of Reserves" feature that will prevent the above quoted shenanigans by exposing the assumptions being relied upon to keep the auditors happy but that the pension funds may not want their members or the public at large to know.

https://www.oecd.org/pensions/oecd-pensions-outlook-23137649...

Mohammed,

Connect with me on LinkedIN.

We could be interested to include a posterity subscription for clients when we launch the US version of https://tontine.com in the coming months.

Cheers

Dean

You are using a dead mans switch or another method to confirm death?

Gross oversimplification: CEO - Works on the business, focuses on the big picture. COO - Works in the business, focuses on the detailed execution.

Brilliant. Patents are super hard to read because they language used is usually overly verbose and unintuitive.

I'm hoping that I substitute plain english words for lengthy patent jargon so that I can actually read the things for once.

Shameless plug: https://tontine.com are hiring Haskellers to roll out their provably secure lifetime income pensions which are now endorsed by the OECD.

Tontines are perfectly legal: https://tontine.com/news/tontines-can-a-pension-this-good-be...

The liabilities of the insurer are typically fixed amounts regardless of investment performance or changes in mortality. If and when the insurer miscalculates they will be wiped out if their assets don't match their liabilities.

Modern tontines are structured more like the Dutch/Swedish/Danish state pensions (the safest in the world) which have the ability to adjust the ongoing payments to members based upon the investment returns and mortality experience.

Asides from saving on the cost of guarantees, the fact that the trustees of the tontine don't have to cover their liabilities by only investing in low-yield bonds means that the trustees are free to invest in a much broader set of asset classes which in the OECD's opinion will generate higher returns resulting in the tontines being able to provide meaningfully higher levels of retirement income to the members.

But if you live so long that you run out of money then you become a financial liability to your family. That's why longevity insurance makes sense.

I still can't believe the price they quoted us for it. Sometimes it makes no sense to haggle.

If it's a DC pension such as a 401k or an IRA then they punish you for living longer because they once they run out that's it.

Tontines have no liabilities so do not need guarantees. Therefore incomes do not suffer from the underwriting fees of insurers.

This means that tontine payments typically start meaningfully higher than annuities at the outset even before the faster acceleration kicks in.

Tontines are perfectly legal. See: https://tontine.com/news/tontines-can-a-pension-this-good-be...

But the annuity only 'rewards' your longevity if you live 15-20 years or more because that is the bare minimum it takes to get back your capital.