orange8

What do you mean zero prestige in that? Do you know the difference in salary, importance and status in managing a team of 50 vs one of only two?

What is a "mapping" structure?

Imagine having a discourse in good faith.

haha. Seriously though, do you honestly believe that is what you are doing here? You think you are acting in good faith?

Anyway. I bid you adieu in a sibling thread, I'll do the same here.

Adieu.

You cannot even keep track of all your "adieus". Are you saying goodbye to a thread, or to an individual? Or is it all just random. lol

FYI: I do not respond to individuals. I respond to comments. Usually asinine comments because they trigger me. So the best way to say goodbye to me, is to think before you post.

Imagine going 2000 years back with a book and showing it to some caveman. To you they are words, with meaning and purpose. To him, they're just random gibberish scrawled on some leafy stuff. He might even nibble on one of the pages and declare "it doesn't even taste good, what can be its use?"

Random APIs indeed. Lol

The original baby was only designed to live inside and come out of it's mothers womb. It was only supposed to drink milk and cry.

How dare it learn how to talk, walk eat solid foods and grow bigger!

That is literally not what I wrote,

Yes. Not all discourse has to be literal. It's called a a metaphor. And your "trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years" is called a hyperbole. You are talking about the most successful cross platform code editor of all time, so if you want to be taken seriously, use level-headed arguments rather than emotional exaggerations.

but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling.

Adieu

I wouldn't consider a discussion where someone cites a 6 year old blog post about performance improvements as proof of "throwing thousands of man years" as a serious, or worthwhile discussion. You can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Because of this you will always have people scream "Apple is killing PWAs" because they don't support a yet another random API.

I like the "yet another random API" phrase. It creates the impression that PWA APIs are being generated fast and furious, and apple is trying very hard to keep up with all these "random" new APIs. Yet, the reality is that apple has for a long time deliberately crippled PWAs on their platform by not supporting just 4, crucial, old and fundamental APIs. I will list these for you:

- Background Sync

- Web Push

- Before Install Prompt and Installation Banner

- Background audio for PWAs

They do not have to implement any "yet another random API". Just those four. Everything else is a bonus, considering this is Apple's Safari (the new IE) we are talking about.

Sublime Text is implemented natively (C++) and uses a fraction of the resources to accomplish similar functionality.

If VS Code is slower than sublime with the same level of functionality, why does it currently totally dominate the market? Is it because devs just love Microsoft?

At what cost?

It is free! Free as in free beer. So all those trillions are going to very good use, considering it is the most used editor. And its open source too!! What a web tech success story this one...

and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough

Imagine that! A cross-platform code editor with its own configurable integrated terminal that hooks into the apps extension system. But someone wrote a blog post in 2017 explaining some performance improvements, so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down!

So what exactly are you asking for here? A list of PWA api's that must be used all the time in every single PWA app? What's the benefit of that? Which application development API has such an asinine requirement in the first place?

“This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” - it failed when Microsoft tried it

VS Code is one of the most successful open source cross platform GUI apps of all time. Who would have thought that good ol' HTML would finally fulfill the promise of "build once, run everywhere".

ask three people, and they will give you five answers on what exactly PWA support means

Or maybe just refer to the definitive docs [1] instead of relying on what 3 random people say?

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

I feel you are putting yourself, and others in a box. We all can gain more clarity from an idea by talking, writing or drawing about it. You don't have to be good at it, it will still improve your grasp of the problem. Of the three, writing is the slowest, meaning your mind takes more time and effort. And the time spent on something has a direct relation to its quality.

Long story short, you will become an even greater engineer by drawing and writing out your ideas.

You drink your glass of water, then continue burning forever and ever.

This kind of reminded me of the module pattern [1] popular with ye olde jQuery plugins. Just realized that hooks try to emulate what JS does natively, which is keeping track of all local variables in a functions calling scope. Meaning that if that function returns an object, that Object still has access to all the variables declared when that function run.

[1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/17776940/javascript-modu...

React famously asserts "it's just javascript".

I think that specifically deals with when using JSX, compared to other templating systems.

and why, for example, you can't use a hook inside an if branch

Within the component functions's body, you may have many calls to the same hook, lets take useState() as an example.

Each useState() returns a different state variable, that is kept track of in a cache outside the component function.

On the first render, the state variables are created. On subsequent re-renders, the state variables are read from the cache.

The cache is a simple array. It keeps track of, and identifies each individual state variable from it's index in the cache array.

The first call to useState() gets slot 0 in the array, the second call gets slot 1 and so on and so forth..

For the tracking to work consistently, all calls to useState() within the function's body must also happen consistently.

In the same order, every time. Having a useState call within a conditional "if" branch breaks that consistency.

It's simple enough: before the rise of front-end frameworks in the 2010s, web developers were indeed more of a single group ("full stack").

They did not call themselves "full-stack" though, did they?

It literally produces the website that the user is looking at.

Your definition is meaningless because EVERYTHING in the pipeline literally produces everything "you are looking at" from the database to the css.

Unlike, say, a micro-service that retrieves some data.

That data still produces part of "what you are looking at". What a useless phrase. Stick to industry definitions, yours do not make sense. And there is no language called "micro-service". I asked you to name the so called "non-user-facing" part of the web development stack.

If you paid attention to what I write you could've seen this: "Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. ".

So, old man yells at the cloud and uses his own idiosyncratic terms. What matters is not who hijacked what. What matters is that the industry has settled on the term "front-end developer". Complain as much as you want, but realize that train left the station. Go ahead and use your own terms that no one understands because "my 23 years experience", but that's exactly how people fall out of touch. And then when you say thinks like "PHP is front-end dev" people will immediately dismiss your knowledge, so you have to keep reminding them "but look.. my experience!" The term is "front-end dev", deal with it.

"OMG PHP runs in the server this is backend unlike this JS code that literally does the same"

Old man yells at a language that can be used both in the cloud and browser.

When JS is executed in the server (e.g. Nodejs) is it part of the back-end stack. When it is executed by the browser, it is part of the front-end stack. When it executes on both, it is full-stack. Kapish?

I'm not sure how long you've been in the industry. But you sound like it is less than maybe 10 years.

Okay. No offence, but so do you.

Before react and such, you were considered a frontend developer when you delivered your javascript + html + css from any backend, though typically it would be served by php, RoR, or, more limitedly, by some python.

Not really. Back in the day, before the great divide [1], the terms we used were "Web Designer" and "Web Developer". We also had "Flash Developer" but I digress. A web designer was expected to know all the front-end stuff including JS, since the front-end was not that complex. Almost all complexity was at the back-end, and that was the job of a web developer. The term "front-end web developer" simply did not exist in 2003. There was nothing to "develop" in the front end, since all complexity was on the back. Yes, there were some exceptions, but in those days, PHP was king. React is current king, and it's funny how it gets the same hate PHP got back in the day. Some people just like to tear down and burn whatever is at the top. Reacts successor will get the same hate. Thats how you know who the king is.

Again, back in the day, you wouldn't call yourself a backend dev if you did anything meaningful with html UI. You would still call yourself frontend even though you had to work through templating in a given backend language.

Wrong. Why would someone working on PHP and MySQL call themselves frontend? So who were the backends back then? Strange thing to call yourself "front", when no one called themselves "back", don't your think? Like I said, the terms back then were web developer and web designer.

Source: I've been doing this for a couple of decades.

Source: So have I.

[1] https://css-tricks.com/the-great-divide/

Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years.

Since you've brought up your experience, what exactly does "in this biz" mean exactly? What was your job title 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Now? If you've really been in the industry that long, you should have noticed that the job titles also evolve. Back when all the complexity was in the server, and JS was just a baby toy language and not the beast its evolved into today, the job titles were very different than they are now.

What you're talking about id client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend.

Just google "front-end" dev, or even use wikipedia [1]. The client-server architecture even pre-dates the web, but when it comes to web developement, the front end is css, html and js. Nothing more, nothing less. If you do not agree, then go edit that wikipedia page.

Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing.

What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing? Can you give me an example of a web tech that is "non-user-facing"?

Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.

The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never. What we use is front-end developer. Go to any job ad website[2] and look for the term "client side dev", you wont find it. What you will find is "front-end dev". Then look through all the front-end dev job postings, and show me one, even one that lists PHP, RoR or Golang as a job requirement. Here are some front-end roles [3][4]. Notice how none of them mention PHP, Golang or RoR? Then here are some back-end roles [5][6], notice how there is no mention of js, html or css?

Case closed. Have a nice day.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development

[2] https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs

[3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-f...

[4] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-...

[5] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust...

[6] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-...

LOL! Looks like some people are silently getting butt-hurt over a simple challenge asking them to differentiate between front-end and back-end dev. If front-end dev is not your cup of tea, that's ok. Just be honest with yourself about it. Using only html, css and a sprinkling of js is not front-end dev, it is web-design.

Okay. I'll explain it to you. It basically comes down to a server-client architecture. The server (db, server side code) is the backend, that the user never gets to see. The client (basically the browser - js, html and css) is what the user get's to see, not just through the interface, but by selecting "view source".

So PHP and Rails are back-end languages. You never get to see the code and logic that generated the page because it is "at the back". Golang, which the poster mentioned, is also a back-end language. So if the core of your apps logic is at the back-end (server), what you are practicing is back-end dev. If the core is in the front (e.g. SPAs) then it's front-end dev. Sometimes the complexity can be split 50-50 between the back and front. But if your web-application just uses html, css and a sprinkling of JS, then it is back-end driven. Another category is a website, which does not really have any complexity whether at the back or front.

So to correct your statement, PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. If it is not html, css and js (including complile to js languages like ts), then it is not front-end dev.

In your own words, please define what "front-end development" means to you when it comes to web development.

It is not magic, it is back-end development. Calling it magic is like calling server-less architecture magic.

Sit down and carefully consider what is the difference between front-end and back-end development, and why that distinction exists in the first place.

I stopped guys, I stopped doing it. Just simple go, html, css, and a bit of javascript when it's needed for a form.

So you basically stopped being a fullstack dev, and moved to the back-end.

Rich nations are exactly like poor people. If you are lucky to grow up privileged, your path to success is very easy compared to someone who group up poor. Rich nations inherited the loot from slavery, and used it to power their innovation.

That is because Rich nations have the luxury to turn their attention and resources to the sciences and arts, once the basic necessities of life have been taken care of. Europe hardly made any progress during its so called "dark ages".

Yes, slavery as a mass industry became economically obsolete due to advances in science. That does not mean it was not very lucrative and beneficial to the those economies on the right side of it while it lasted. A study of human history is just one of the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer, until the next revolution comes about.

You can find one or two professors to stand behind literally any point. But that theory doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Not just one or two, the article you linked to clearly states that it is hotly debated by economic and history experts. The professor is an expert on the topic, are you? One thing all experts agree on, is that Africa was, a very exploited continent. And many believe it still is. How else would the worlds richest continent in terms of natural resources also have the worlds poorest populations? Europe benefited from the African slave trade, you say "just a tiny bit", I say significantly, but on that we both agree.

If the slave trade is “actually” what was responsible for European wealth, how did Britain end it almost overnight without any significant impact on its economy?

They ended it at the height of the British Empire. When they had colonized huge swathes of Africa. It did not impact Britain's economy since the direct exploitation of african peopls was replaced by the direct exploitation of africas natural resources. Colonialism is just another form of slavery.

The rise of strong central governments that could protect trade routes, and the early part of the Industrial Revolution

That's right. And one of the most lucrative trade routes in human history that they protected, controlled and profited from was the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

Wildly incorrect. The slave trade peaked around 11% of the UK economy: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-global-...

Thanks for the link, very interesting. Some quotes from it..

"By the end of the eighteenth century, the British part of the Triangular Trade alone incorporated economic activities equivalent to around 5% of the British gross domestic product. If we add the activities in the American plantation complex, as well as the industries in Britain directly dependent upon this (either for inputs of raw materials or for markets for output), the estimated figures show that economic activities equivalent to around 11% of British GDP were directly involved in or associated with the Triangular Trade and the American plantation complex. Activities of this magnitude can hardly be dismissed as marginal to the British economy at the time."

Note that this 11% is only at the end of the 18th century. Just a snapshot of a trade that started in the 15th century.

"The transatlantic slave trade did have intimate connections to several European economies, but the consequences have also been fiercely debated."

They say "fiercely debated", you say "wildly incorrect". Do you actually read the sources you link to?

"One important reason for this focus on Britain was no doubt the publication of Eric Williams’ much-cited book Capitalism and slavery, first published in 1944."

Someone actually wrote a whole book about it! That's how deep the subject is. I remember watching a 1 hour lecture on you tube, where this professor argued that the trans-Atlantic slave trade is actually what made Europe and economic powerhouse. Something about a combination of good timing and location. If you have any alternative theory of what powered Europe's economic growth in the 18th century, let me know. My take, it was not much different from what powered the roman empire and many other economic powerhouses going thousands of years back.

"The assumptions underlying such counterfactual models can be quite controversial. For instance, the American plantation complex might seem unimportant as a supplier of cotton and other plantation crops, if one assumes a very high elasticity of supply of these crops in other parts of the world, and declining costs of maritime transport. In his recent book Empire of cotton, Sven Beckert has essentially argued against making such an assumption. In his view, the coercion involved in the expansion of the American plantation complex was the key ‘that opened fresh lands and mobilized new labor, becoming the essential ingredient of the emerging empire of cotton – and thus an essential ingredient in forging industrial capitalism’."

Another book! This one is more about America though, and the influence of the cotton industry, powered by slaves. Not sure how those GDP calculations from the 1800s you quoted were arrived at, but I'm certain an "essential ingredient in forging industrial capitalism" is not 5%.

He did introduce it. Rubber was not traded or even heard of in the Congo until the Belgians arrived.

Pygmies are still eaten in the congo today.

LOl! There are no Pymies in Congo. Pygmies are from the CONGO BASIN, not CONGO. But I wouldn't expect someone who still believes in old proganda stories from the 1800s to know anything about the continents geography. Do you have any proof of pygmy cannibalism?