HN user

mathperson

203 karma
Posts1
Comments159
View on HN

Fantastic!

I thought more about your question (at least what I thought it was) and it wouldn't necessarily prevent redundant encoding but it would sort of restrict how 'damaging' such an encoding could be (if that makes sense).

This whole field is very new but very exciting and very troubling.

Like- what is fairness really? Its an intersection of philosophy/ethics and very UN-intuitive mathematics..there are many open questions

I am going to assume by 'redundant encoding' you mean a model that takes some non-racial feature like- living in an urban area- and uses that to predict something that is very different across races- say whether or not your loan is approved.

"Definition 2.1 (Equalized odds). We say that a predictor Yhat satisfies equalized odds with respect to protected attribute A and outcome Y , if Yhat and A are independent conditional on Y ."

This is from page 3. Yhat is the model trained on A (protected class) T (training outcome).

Do you see how if this definition holds there can be absolutely no redundant encoding?

the whole point of the amazon bidding process is to induce competition between cities to give amazon exemptions and tax breaks-Philadelphia/Pennsylvania will probably benefit on the whole if they were chosen...but the size of that benefit would depend substantially on the terms they offer amazon.

That is NOT a tax break....the immigrants and their families didn't spend years paying into the state tax base used to support the public university which the citizens presumably did and will continue to do in the future...

edit: I am using immigrant-when perhaps one should use 'international student'

Ah an interesting point about due process. I buy that.

Yes journalist integrity is a good term that I feel captures the scope of what we would like to discuss.

Side note watching the project veritas videos is so heartwarming. It really makes you believe in democracy and truth again. Seeing good fact-checking...glorious

edit: sorry if I wrote too much. I guess I got excited.

Sure they predate #metoo but they are part of the same laudable impulse: to hold sexual predators accountable-often in the court of public opinion. I fail to see why you would make a dichotomy between them and this moment. Maybe this one is larger?

Before we continue: I am not lawyer and I am going to refer to due process roughly as "When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due process violation, which offends the rule of law." (wikipedia for due process)

Perhaps we should smear the meaning of due process a little bit for this discussion. I do not want to be too legalistic. Could we not expand our discussion to include due process on the part of media? I.e. skepticism, verification, basically making sure stories are well sourced and are as true as is possible given reasonable constraints. In short, good, professional journalism in the sense of Woodward and Bernstein.

Now onto the core of your comment. You are mincing your words very very finely. Due process was 100% violated in each of these cases.

Lacrosse-The prosecutor was DISBARRED and JAILED (briefly). Crystal Mangum LIED. MIKE NIFONG LIED. Just because justice won out in the end doesn't mean there were not significant due process violations during the case. Maybe lying isn't a violation of due process in the strict legal sense. But it sure as hell is a miscarriage of justice and that should be very frightening.

Those falsely accused still experienced real and lasting damages including being harassed verbally on campus by protestors, being shamed by faculty members. The press leapt to judgement and turned a bunch of rich, privileged, smart(?), white boys into monsters.

To me this case is incredibly concerning-because if rich white male lacrosse players can be falsely accused and have their lives turned upside down and possibly destroyed...what chance do the less fortunate members of american society have? how many poor black men, innocent of any crime, are rotting in overcrowded prisons? How many innocents are on death row? I think we have a duty to be cautious...I would rather we let some guilty escape than we punish innocents. I don't know where I would draw the line in terms of numbers.

Fun fact: one of the duke lacrosse guys now works for the innocence project.

-Rolling Stone: There are people who still believe that story...

-Columbia mattress guy- and no ONE cares. people still talk about that accuser as doing a profound service to the moral ethos of the republic. That guy's reputation was shattered. He had his education interrupted and experienced real damages.

Franken: Yeah.

Re: your last part. This could be partially my fault for conflating due process in a legal sense and due diligence and good journalistic practices a la Washington Post. I agree- those people exist and they need to be convinced otherwise.

Look- I just posted in another comment thread advocating for and supporting the fact that in the American press people have substantial freedom to make accusations and shame malefactors. It is essential to safeguarding our liberties. I treasure that right. However, that right imposes on us, as citizens and readers, certain responsibilities to ensure we do not falsely accuse and shame the innocent. I think that duty is simply to be restrained and be calm and reserve our strongest opprobrium until we have a reasonable degree of certainty. If you are ever accused of a significant crime or misdeed (in court or in the press) I am sure you would hope that you yourself be extended that same privilege.

Honestly do we really have any point of argument? I mean come on- do you really think duke-lacrosse didn't have due process issues? If so we need to talk more about the facts of the case.

Here is my tldr: false accusations are real, they do happen, and so I think it behooves the public to weigh the strength of an accusation and ponder the merits of each individual case before looking for witches to burn. Alternatively, sexual abuse/harassment are a real problem and I think all of us, men,women,non/binary, children, should be introspective about how our own actions can make things worse for victims and easier for predators. Most people accused of crimes are guilty.

Similarly, when we let false accusations stand we empower those lunatics who really and truly do believe that every accuser of roy moore is a paid liberal shill and that women should be returned to a state of powerlessness and legal bondage. This is not an academic point-I go on the /r/The_Donald to see what they are like and people there really and truly believe that.

edit2: I didn't really talk in detail about lacrosse/mattress but they had problems.

welcome to America. This is why newspapers have legal departments. Personally, I'd rather have to worry about #fakenews and PR and spin rather than have to live in a where journalists fear prosecution from the rich and powerful for errors in their stories...like in the UK. The grey area is an intentional part of american jurisprudence, designed to protect the press and hopefully safeguard democracy. By making a wide grey area we put the burden of proof on the plaintiff.

Also...I am looking very askance at your characterization of 'could' as a weasel word. There are a lot of shades of grey in the world and we need degrees of certainty like could to help communicate that doubt. I think there is a large gap between troubling uses of the word 'could' and the example you gave me...which seems honestly quite innocuous.

What is your point with this comment? To suggest that people can use words to communicate doubt without having a factual basis for those claims and protect themselves from legal retaliation party by an injured party?

To support this conjecture you give me an example which is CLEARLY true. Loot boxes are 100% like gambling. You give money to receive a probabilistic reward with addictive properties. Designers intentionally seek out whales who will drop money on buying many boxes chasing the irregular high.

It seems eminently reasonably that this could make them illegal in places where gambling is closely regulated...using could here seems 100% necessary to communicate that legal experts probably disagree about whether or not loot boxes and their ilk fall under these older statutes.

Are you asking for examples of the mob-like behavior? And lack of due process? Here are some:

-Duke Lacrosse, Rolling Stone, Columbia-guy,...

In the Lacrosse case there were legal repercussions in terms of the behavior of the prosecutor AND private entities ie. Gang of 88 issuing that infamous letter. Similarly in the Rolling Stone and Columbia cases.

False witch hunts like these are indeed relatively uncommon..but they do exist and are they definitely are a function of 'believe women.' Perhaps these are unavoidable consequences of a generally good policy..but it would be foolish to ignore discussion of them entirely.

Side note: Franken was clearly pressured out by the democractic party...I doubt very much he would be free of major repercussions if he had ignored that pressure. I think he was going to be ostracized by his caucus and he saw the writing on the wall. Once those senators published that letter...he was done.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is morally wrong to disassociate from people whom you reasonably believe to have committed heinous crimes. In the words of Edward R Murrow responding to ongoing McCarthyism "We must remember always that accusation is not proof and conviction depends on due process of law." In practice, this simply becomes be cautious with leaping to judgement and exercise some common logic in weighing the credibility of accusations...like the fantastic reporters at the Washington Post did during the Roy Moore expose.

I can pay for high resolution images of every walMart in the US- Use math- estimate foot traffic- estimate average sales per person- I can estimate profitability of Walmart. Let's say it's a good quarter. I buy a bunch of Walmart stock - they then disclose quarterly earnings- investors see the good numbers- the share price goes up. My position is long-I sell. Profit.

edit: obviously many steps of this process can use machine learning in general and deep learning in particular