jondeval

Of course the Church has a well-known teaching with regard to this activity. Just like the Church has a specific teaching about artificial contraception. So the Church obviously says specific things about specific things.

The point is that the identical moral reasoning process is being applied consistently to all people, namely, sexual activity is to be avoided outside of a marriage open to children. Gay people are not being targeted by some sort of religious moral carve-out.

I think you are correct in emphasizing that the burden of the Church's teaching on chastity does not fall equally on all groups of people.

But it should be stressed that this is no way a consequence a specific teaching that targets people with same-sex attraction.

The root cause of the trouble is the fact that the Catholic Church has consistently taught something that is always counter-cultural, difficult, and even quite radical. Namely that the only proper place for sexual intimacy is within a life long bond between one man and one woman for the purpose of raising children.

I think most rational people would see through that ...

Where is the inconsistency? A heterosexual man is called to chastity as well. If he acts against this by cheating on his spouse I don't think the CC would be 'condemning an intrinsic quality' he was made with.

The teachings of Jesus should piss everyone off in some way or another.

Apologies. I mistook you as someone looking to engage with the substance of the argument. Take Care.

Thanks for the response. Let me take your comments one at a time. Apologies in advance if it seems like I'm jumping around and cherry picking. I'm just trying to focus in on the key issues.

if we define God as base reality, then God exists by definition.

Right. You are stating the conception of God that is advanced by Judaism and Christianity. Its succinct expression is put forth by Thomas Aquinas and can also be found in the thinking of Aristotle.

To get even more concrete, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that God is ipsum esse subsistens or roughly subsistent being itself.

In that case why not just call it "reality" or "the universe"?

I think you're touching on a good point. Let me take each case separately because I see them as slightly different:

> ... why not just call it "reality" ...

You sort of can. As long we acknowledge that reality is made up of things that are more and less contingent. For example I'm looking at my headphones as I type. I can say 'these headphones are reality'. Even though these headphones are real, we both know that they would be a terrible candidate for base reality itself since the headphones can't explain their own existence and are clearly contingent on other things in being. (similar to the teapot)

> ... why not just call it ..."the universe" ...

Typically when people say "the universe" they are implying the sum total of all material reality as we observe it.

The question is: is this the best or even a good candidate for base-reality. I think the answer is no for a very simple reason. The universe changes. energy changes form, objects change in an emergent phenomena we call time, they move through space, there are stars and not stars, and atoms and not atoms etc.

Everything else that we know of or can conceive of that changes as much as the universe does is coupled to a more fundamental reality that is the cause and explanation of the change.

So the universe is real, like the headphones, it just can't be the best candidate for base-reality itself.

So what is a good candidate for base reality?

* For starters there is only one base-realty. If there were 2 or more then you would need something more fundamental to distinguish them.

* Whatever this base reality is, it's utterly simple. It has no parts since parts would require distinctions and more fundamental explanations to identify them.

* Base reality needs to be outside time and space, because of the whole can't change thing I eluded to earlier.

* Finally, anything that has the potential to actually exist in reality, is in some weird way already present in base-realty. This is just a different way of saying that base-reality is the cause (directly or indirectly) of all things. cause of all possible potential things -> all possible potentials -> all-potentials -> omni-potentials -> omnipotent.

So, by necessity there must be a base-reality that is at a minimum: one, simple, eternal, immaterial, and omnipotent.

We then assign (like a reference pointer :^) ), the english word God to whatever this best candidate for base reality is, being sure to acknowledge that we are really dealing with the best candidate.

const God = (maximally full expression of base reality)

I don't get what the Romeo and Juliet example shows.

Apologies if this is not helpful. I offered this analogy to get closer the proper definition of God that I outlined above. In the same way Romeo and Juliet can never step outside of the play, we can nonetheless see that Shakespeare is the their creator and is in a sense closer to Romeo and Juliet then they are to themselves. You and I cannot step outside of base reality but it should be obvious that we are held in existence by something that is more fundamental then ourselves.

Let's leave aside the arrogant/not-arrogant portion of the thread for now and key in on your main point:

If someone says they know there is a teapot in orbit around Proxima Centauri and I disagree with them, neither of us can prove or disprove the other. That doesn't mean we both have an equal claim to being right.

I agree with you. No person is rationally justified in believing in such a teapot without evidence. However, a teapot is a contingent thing. Meaning it's very existence depends on the existence of other things (tea, water, the ceramic material that makes it up, Proxima Centauri etc.)

I suspect (I could be wrong here) that you are tacitly implying that people who assert the existence of God are making a similar move.

Please keep in mind that God is by definition base-reality and non-contingent and so exists necessarily.

To illustrate the difference here with an analogy: If we witnessed an alternative rendition of a conversation between Romeo and Juliet where they attempted to prove the existence of Shakespeare, we wouldn't be surprised if they failed to find evidence for Shakespeare from within the play and their own character existence. But at the same time we would find their conclusion absurd if they thought they had successfully proved that Shakespeare did not exist. They are Romeo and Juliet after all.

An additional reason that drives me to use make on most new projects is the polyglot nature of many code repos. There are language/ecosystem-specific build tools: grunt, rake, etc. but often real world projects are a mix if different languages and to double down on just one language-specific tool feels unnecessarily constraining.

Having a build tool like make that is more closely aligned with the system level feels more natural for orchestrating build/test/deploy tasks that by their very nature contain more cross-cutting concerns.

You make some really fantastic points here.

His argument doesn't make sense if Adam didn't really exist.

I think you are completely correct. CS Lewis provides and extensive set of thoughts about paradisal man in 'The Problem of Pain'. He does this in a way that incorporates an understanding that man evolved from lower common ancestors while attempting a faithful, albeit not literalistic view of the story of the garden. You may or may not have read those chapters, but either way do you think that a possible reconciliation along these lines can exist?

More concretely Pope Pius XII lays out just such a reconciliation in the encyclical Humane Generis that asserts two points: (1) The theory of evolution should be taken seriously and there is strong evidence that human beings evolved from a common ancestors with the apes and (2) The story of Adam and Eve is a story about a real event, although the language expressing the truth of the event should not be interpreted strictly literally.

If you're still on the thread I would be curious to get your thoughts.

What specific truth claim are you skeptical about?

I don't think the concept is morality is relevant in those extreme cases. It looks like we are more or less saying the same thing.

Apologies if I'm missing the main point. I certainly agree that consciousness + rational choosing must be a prerequisite for moral acts.

But I wouldn't concede that morality is a human invention like the computer. That would imply that it's accidental and not grounded in anything fundamental to our species or nature's laws.

Do you believe that choosing to feed your kids, or choosing to not kill someone are simply created constructs like the computer or the airplane?

Also, I think these two statements can be true at the same time: (1) The Moral Law is real and exists outside of our subjective experience and historical cultural evolution and (2) concepts like Karma are without evidence.

What were the reasons that made you embrace that change? Consistency is certainly admirable, but you can consistently embrace incorrect world views.

Evidence: How many, many animals live and thrive is deeply immoral by human standards.

The fact that non-human animals live an existence of violent survival does not seem to be prima facie evidence for the nonexistence or incoherence of human morality.

Human beings are rational animals. The term rational here is being used in a specific and technical sense. Non-human animals are subject to the laws of nature in a manner that acts more directly on their passions. Human beings are also subject to the laws of nature, but the forces of nature are mediated by our rationality.

Animal Act: (1) Offspring are hungry (2) brings food to offspring

Human Act: (1) Offspring are hungry (2) Reflects and Decides to provide food (3) brings food to offspring

An act is deemed immoral if it is a misuse of the rational faculty for ends that are not in conformity with the laws of nature.

Human Act (immoral): (1) Offspring are hungry (2) Reflects and Decides not to provide food for selfish reasons (3) offspring go hungry

Animals suffer but they are not moral agents like human beings since there is no mediating rationality that can be misused for ends that are not in conformity with nature's laws. The phrase Nature's Laws is being used broadly to include physical, biological or evolved social laws intertwined with the essential characteristics of the species.

Secular humanism in its more radical and moderate forms since the French revolution has always been subject to the direct and straightforward criticism that as a philosophy it will eventually lead to an erosion of a shared reference frame and eventually an erosion of sanity itself.

What if this societal rejection of Truth that we are witnessing (and is summarized well by the article) is the direct result of the success of secular humanism?

I think this is the elephant in the room.

I'm just an ordinary Catholic. My story isn't particularly exciting.

I understand the view you are articulating with the phrase 'reduction of truth'. I can't be 100% sure from such a short description but I think that view aligns closely to my own.

More and more I find my perspective tracking with these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0

As you wrestle with the deeper questions about God and Christianity, you mine as well wrestle with the most well educated proponents of that view. The Dominican Friars who put those videos together certainly check that box.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Good luck to you. This is a great comment.

See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology)

This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome.

Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know?

Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?

At the risk of going too far off topic, there is a distinction between Biblical inerrancy and Biblical literalism.

For example, Jesus says: 'You are the salt of the earth.' He doesn't literally mean his followers are Sodium Chloride molecules.

Diving deeper in one specific interpretive case, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is Inerrant but the 'literal' interpretation is not always to be prefered.

This should be obvious because the Bible is not a book it's a library, and how you read it depends on which section of the library you are in.

The reality of hell is absolutely grounded in both the Biblical texts and the Christian tradition. Furthermore the image of 'fire' to describe this reality cannot be disputed. Thank you for looking up the most relevant verses.

It's a topic worth understanding and studying with seriousness. Otherwise you'll be prone to interpret the teaching as just a capricious punishment from God for some bad things that you've done.

My original post was in response to a snarky comment made along those lines but it looks like that context has been lost.

Such difference seems very significant to me.

Thank you for your honesty. As a Catholic it's interesting to hear the perspective of an atheist on this topic.

Christianity rejects at a philosophical level any sort of dependence on 'secret information'. The teachings of the Catholic Church should stand up to scrutiny and there is nothing to hide.

But blindly following a ceremony your entire life ...

I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons.

I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass.

Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday without exception. But I don't recognize myself or my reasons in your characterization of why people go.

I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians.

This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone' view?

If you have, and feel confident that you are accurately representing their view, than I happily stand corrected. Just know that it doesn't track at all with my own direct experience, nor my studied understanding of the doctrinal teachings of the major Christian denominations.

Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…

This is an example of a statement that is so true it's devoid of information content. I would assume that a reasonable adult who is interested in investigating the bases for the theological doctrine of hell, is also well aware that there is denominational diversity of views within the faith.

The real problem with the 'not all Christians agree' public service announcements are that they have the insidious effect of leading people to believe that there is no subset of teachings on which Christians do agree and can speak coherently.

I know it's not your intention to undermine Christianity through this relativistic dilution and you are just trying to make sure the 'fire and brimstone and sulfur lake' view gets a fair hearing, but I do want to make the point that this pseudo-sophisticated bad faith argument is out there.

It think this is mostly right. Within your point number (1), I see the problem as more to do with senior management.

Specifically I think the major disconnect is not so much between middle managers and IC's, it's between executives and the rest of the org.

Unfortunately I'm beginning to think that this is truly a case of misaligned incentives that may prove hard to fix. What I mean is that executives are directly incentivized to be in the office. Almost all of their career capital is tied up in relationships and patterns of decision making with other executives.

Good day for a manager or IC - 'Wow, I really got a lot done today and I'm moving the team goals forward.'

Good day for an executive - 'That conversation with Dan and Steve went really well.'

Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one.

This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table.

My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks nothing like the original canard.

Maybe Christianity is not a cult, but the cult. When I hear people call a group a cult, what they typically mean is that the group is a pale imitation of Christianity.

Many Christians would likely take issue with this description because they don't want to be on the wrong side of the dirty word cult.

But I personally don't think it's much of a problem if the person you worship is Jesus of Nazareth.

Besides, you know...

For those interested in knowing the actual Christian teaching on the topic of hell, just be aware that this comment is completely incorrect.

I think you are describing something that is fundamentally difficult for all human beings. (1) Understanding abstract problem statements (2) solving the problem (3) communicating the solution to other people accounting for their various levels of understanding and context (4) the meta problem of knowing which problems to solve and which conversations to have.

Some people are legitimately better than others in all of the above and my view is that those who are better have a responsibility to help the team.

Here are some things that have worked well for me:

* Good information gathering can happen in group discussions but I try to avoid problem solving in groups of more than 3 people.

* A super powerful question that focuses the conversation is this: "What are the decisions that we need to make in the near term?" Now if the answer to this question involves more than 2 or 3 things, politely propose that the group focus the conversation on just 1 or 2 decisions.

* In an engineering context it is extremely rare to find someone who is both very unfocused in conversations and at the same time very effective in getting their solutions built. So, don't waste too much energy trying to correct these people or bring them back on track because they just can't do much damage. Instead spend your energy in small group discussions with other effective engineers. This is where the real decisions are made and the large group discussions are for propagating these decisions for transparency.

Surely not everything is so incredibly compressible, is it?

I like your line of thinking and I'm actually quite excited about this recent shift in physics to a more information-theoretic line of inquiry.

Is it fair to state a corollary of your question this way? Given a complete description of some hypothesized universe/multiverse generator (essentially the next layer down that we are actively trying to discover), the Kolmogorov complexity (or some variation of K-Complexity) of this description must be greater than the K-complexity of any generated universe.

In my view, it would be very weird if this were not true. And (to me) it would be even weirder if this K-complexity was some large number but still less than infinity.

Thank you. I appreciate you wanting and choosing to respond.

I used to think that free will existed but now I am surprised we even think that.

How about over a longer time period? For example, say you want to pickup a new good habit and get rid of a bad habit. When you start to intentionally make thousands of little choices over time that all add up to a major change in your life, can't you say that you freely chose that path?

Even if each individual impulse along the way maintains a connection to a more materialist/deterministic set of causes, you can still meaningfully talk about your own free will at this higher level of abstraction. What am I missing?

I actually think PG is exploring something that is at the heart of what it means to be a human being.

Interestingly, the traditional teaching of Original Sin is that we are broken at the level of what we 'want'. The phrase commonly used is 'disordered desire'.

The key idea here is that if you want the wrong things, you are not actually free, even if you perceive yourself as choosing freely. As a corollary, the more you practice the good, the more you desire it, and the freer you become.