jc_dc

Yeah, still have what equates to a scare screen. Tells you file may be harmful upon download, then you need to change a setting which is streamlined to what it was before, but still a scare screen. Now you can allow from source…but the source isn’t the web address, it’s the initiating application eg. Chrome or Files so there’s a huge security hole with this implementation presumably on purpose to manufacture the incident they need to justify their behavior.

I’ll have to test this tomorrow. Last time I tried sideloading direct from our website I had to flip a switch in settings which came with a scare dialog. If I remember correctly, it was a system wide setting too and didn’t allow for trusting specific sources. If we can self distribute on Android, that will be 3 out of 4.

Resolution time on native is longer than web. Bugs happen, native, web, doesn’t matter…bugs happen.

Re benefit for who. We will invest our time where it makes the most sense. If you’re familiar with platform risk, you’ll understand that we’re not exactly eager for our existence to be subject to the whims of Apple and Google.

Tend to agree with all of this. Manifest is way too finicky.

Would be interesting to see how the play store changes in the event of Android honoring code signing for side loading like windows. Eg..no scare screen on side loaded apk’s as long as they’re code signed.

I suspect the App Store would live on as a consumer focused App Store and the enterprise apps would direct distribute which makes sense anyhow cause IAP does t understand account based pricing.

It’s possible to hate them and recognize why they’re doing at the same time though…although I do think there’s also a hefty dose of arrogance and self importance in there. I’m old enough to remember when we (devs) felt this way toward Microsoft…so if I was Tim Apple I’d include that risk in my calculus cause what came next was two decades in the penalty box.

Seems like they hate us (developers) back though so it’s a mutual relationship I suppose.

No, I’d say the vast majority of reputable developers are not trying to scam you.

But there are some trying to scam you…and some of those are also in the App Store…as long as they use IAP to scam you all is well.

Google have an interest in moving people away from desktop applications because they don’t have a desktop OS (not counting Chromebook).

We run 3 SaaS apps. One is strictly native, and the other two are strictly web. Writing for 4 platforms on the native app is an extremely expensive exercise and then we are also subject to the insanity that is the App Store. Long story here, everything from App Store review times on mission critical software to the fact that their billing mechanism simply doesn’t work for B2B SaaS…and by the way, we get zero traffic from the App Store as that’s simply not where our customers are looking for the solution we provide. Fortunately, bulk of our customers start on desktop where we self distribute (code signing on windows and notarization on mac) with ev ssl on marketing sites. Why is the App Store scammy over the open web…search for any number of popular apps and look at how many have been cloned. Sure, you can do this on the web with paid ads and enough SEO effort but it’s much harder.

To this day, Apple continue to allow keyword stuffing, advertising on trademarked names, and blatant copyright infringement in app descriptions and even I (fairly tech savvy) accidentally purchased a clone of poly bridge for my kid cause they’ll list the clone above the real one on an exact term search. What was apples response when I said I purchased the wrong app? Tough cookies!

This is the same reason I hate shopping on Amazon. I simply prefer to have a direct relationship with the companies I buy things from, and from what I can tell, our customers prefer have a direct relationship with us.

But back to why PWA’s are awesome…simply put, iteration time. We can publish dozens of improvements every day and roll back instantly when an issue arises. We simply can’t do that with native as long as the Apple / Google act as a gate keepers. When we allow proper sideloading without the scare tactics and dirty tricks, we’ll take the time to build native again.

To this day, I prefer windows, and I have to switch between Mac and windows all day every day.

And to a degree, that’s why developers tend to hate Apple. They paint us as a pack of crims trying to steal from unsuspecting Apple users.

I don’t buy it. Apple build iOS and I’m sure they will sandbox alt browsers as they do with every other 3rd party app on the phone.

PWA’s on Android can be installed directly from a website…it’s awesome, less friction and less scammy than the Play Store.

On iOS you need to use the Share > Add to Home Screen which normies have no clue about. You’ll find out if the site supports PWA features AFTER you add it to your Home Screen. This of course is done entirely on purpose to make them harder to find and less appealing than the revenue generating App Store.

For me, I use iPhone entirely because pixel doesn’t support cardav and caldav out of the box…if I can’t use PWA’s on my phone then I’m going back to android cause I can solve the email problem easier than I can solve the productivity tools not being available via PWA’s.

It’s because you probably had a phone before the iPhone. If you’re not already a vr user then it’s hard to imagine how this will fit in your life.

For me, if I happen to get an opportunity to strap a vr device to my face be interested to play around, but not motivated enough to go out of my way for it.

As a developer, I already spend a fortune on devices and simply can’t see any of our products benefiting from vr…this was true with oculus, and is still true with vision pro.

Radically different, yes, but linear with the progression of all tech. I wouldn’t say that the iPhone has significantly outpaced Android devices for example.

Likewise, I’d be surprised if apples headset outpaces oculus in any significant way over the next 20 years.

Will it ever be a primary computing device? Not for me..maybe some future generation. Why? Cause I don’t want to spend my workday in a cave. When I pause to think through something, I look away from my monitor etc…

The verge very briefly mentioned it in the “magic till not” video.

We regrettably have one app under apples scrutiny…we won’t make that mistake again.

Open web is the best place for us to invest our time.

Have you actually used it for general computing tasks? If so, how was it?

I loved my htc with the slide out keyboard! Sure, it would reboot occasionally when you slid the keyboard out and it took 45 minutes to send an email on edge but that was back to the future stuff back then.

Yep, I’d say if this thing can’t sell beyond the Apple services subscribers, it won’t exist in 5 years.

Not sure how many devs they’ll get. Of course they’ll get some, but we refocused to invest in PWA’s because of Apple and Googles App Store behavior…we’re certainly not the only devs doing this.

Depends on what they want it to be.

For sure there will be some hardcore indies that just love developing for vr.

There will probably be some game studios ready to go.

TikTok will probably be there.

But, why would Netflix, Spotify, every productivity tool…go out of their way to work on this thing at a time where most are diving deeper into PWA’s?

For spatial computing, they’re going to need to improve the dev situation or accept that safari is the star of the show.

Everyone forgets that the nerds had windows ce phones before Apple hit the market. It was the 3GS and 3rd party dev arcade games that converted me. Apples challenge now is how to convince people who hate them to go to work for them.

Good luck with that. Devs made the iPhone a hit and Apple demonized them over it. Can’t imagine too many are eager to make the same mistake twice.

Ummm…might want to tell that to Apple. Check the guidelines.

If us devs were smart, we’d organize and have our apps go on a maintenance break until Apple and Google remember what a computing and platform is without 3rd party devs.

You’re already seeing that with car and headset though.

Agree 100%

Last two products we have built were PWA’s and platform risk is the biggest reason for that.

So you think Apple will go broke if they have to compete with sideloaded apps?

Keep in mind, we already pay them for dev tools each year, just like how we pay Microsof for visual studio.

We already pay them an annual fee, buy a bunch of hardware to test on, and pay to send people to their App Store where they sell ads on our trademarked names.

On the flip side, when’s the last time you’re seen a successful computing platform without 3rd party software?

Simply put, this should be a mutually beneficial relationship like it is on Mac and windows…but Apple and Google are trying to change the code of conduct for mobile so they can not only take their piece, but ours too.

Should you also have to pay each telco a fee to make your phone number reachable? Should Comcast be allowed to block traffic if you don’t pay them a toll?

A Walmart customer doesn’t invest $1100 for the pleasure to walk through their front door so they also shop at target, Amazon and direct.

There is no way to deliver native software to a users iPhone without the App Store…that’s the problem.

The judge cited switching cost in the epic v Google case and I slow clapped him by myself in my office like a weirdo…I was just so excited that the judicial system was picking up on where the control lies.

And by the way, we can go to google who use scare tactics for sideloading even when we are doing everything right.

Last I checked, you could only turn sideloading on or off…you should be able to whitelist sites like chrome does or support code signing like windows does.

In part, you’re right. It’s their product and they made the phone, but make no mistake, devs made it successful!

We have been moving away from native apps because the hassle just ain’t worth it. We have more control over our own destiny on the web so that’s where we are investing time.

I’ve been saying for years that Apple will regret treating us with such distain in the long run, and here we are where car makers don’t want their software, and devs are saying thanks but no thanks on their headset.

If enough devs move to pwa’s, that’s the ball game. May as well bring back the Firefox OS.

Here’s the thing that really bothers me about iOS. I’m forced to distribute through an App Store that doesn’t understand how to upgrade orgs, not individuals, doesn’t understand that org subscriptions don’t belong on an individuals Apple account, will deny updates even when you are completely compliant, sell ads on direct searches of our trademarked name…AND, we get borderline zero organic search traffic from App Store because it’s just not where our customers are looking for a solution. So, we spend money to send them to the iOS App Store!!! Not the other way around. With Mac, we quickly ditched the App Store and self distributed cause app review was such a pain.

With windows, which is much bigger than Mac for us, we self distribute with code signing.

And…if that’s not bad enough, we want to be able to deploy updates immediately when necessary. This is mission critical software for these businesses. Thankfully, we can roll out on desktop immediately but on phones, there was one time a couple years ago where we had to deny all Android access for 48 hours cause there was a bad bug over a public holiday weekend. So now, we won’t update the app around holidays. I will say, app review has gotten better over the years and most of ours go theough within 30 mins these days but every now and again it’ll take a couple days which keeps that spectre in the back of your mind.