curtis17

fn bugs me as well.

fun would have been better: - ML heritage for named functions (fn was anon) - muscle memory with the leading part of javascript function - the other abbreviations take the leading part of the word

but it is no more pragmatic than OCaml or F#.

Swift seems more approachable then those languages. Pragmatic in the sense that Rust and Kotlin are.

Swift seems a pragmatic take on functional programming. Apple backing means the compiler, libs and runtime will get a lot of work.

Or would that enable a Linux port?

I would be interested in a Swift port for Linux server-side/command line dev. Not so much client UI dev. Swift on Linux servers could help Apple sell more Macbooks to developers.

Scala moving in a similar direction.

Odersky: That's going to be a more fundamental rethink of what Scala is. The main goal is to make it simpler, to review it or work out what its core is, and have a very simple core on which essentially the other features of Scala can all be based. Essentially, it's a way to modularize the language better, to base the features that we know from Scala on a very, very simple core that we can compile efficiently and reason precisely about. That's the main goals for Don Giovanni.

http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-programming/scala-founder-la...

The most interesting way forward re languages/runtimes looks like something Brendan mentioned here: http://javascriptjabber.com/124-jsj-the-origin-of-javascript...

At some point, Sweet.js ties the knot and people can write hygienic macros and extend the language.... And it’s all based on a common set of primitives and that’s the important thing. You can reason about the primitives. You can compose them. They’re compositional. They compose orthogonally. That’s the goal here. JavaScript has a lot of warts in it, but if you weed those out or deprecate them you end up with stuff that is compositional. And that’s where I think we’re heading.

Kotlin could be the Swift for Android if Jetbrains make it an explicit goal and gain developer mindshare.

Also, Kotlin can compile down to JS and can thus target another Google platform - ChromeOS/Chrome - with the possibility of shared code.

Apple could have big plans for their ARM64 platform. Anand could be part of it.

If Google can't resolve their differences with Oracle Kotlin could be a way forward. Especially given the Android Studio connection.

Value types with operator overloading. Expressive and good for performance.

Open? Java is owned by Oracle.

C# is better and more expressive than Java. Especially the functional/declarative features added after the initial Java influenced release - async/await, var, linq etc.

Android needs to evolve away from Java. It needs a Swift - something richer, more expressive, focused on modern 64bit platforms and above all open.

Definitely not alone.

At the Google IO Android Fireside Chat, a developer asked the Android team about using an alternative to Java for development - Scala in his case. Pretty much 'no' was the response. But don't Google have any taste. Kotlin or Xtend imo are lighter than Scala and would be good fits for Android.

Dart is interesting but a little too Jave-ery in both syntax and tools - Dart Editor is Eclipse based. Also, not sure how committed Google is long-term.

Google's issue is too many languages and runtimes: Go, JS/ES6/V8, Dart/DartVM, Java/ART, PaNcl, RenderScript.

With the Material/Paper UI Google have given dev's a consistent, elegant unified surface. But Google should also be moving in the direction of an (elegant) unification under the hood. Java and JS are 20 years old - but are at the core of Google's platforms - Android and Chrome/OS. But what - Kotlin, Dart, ES6/7?

Google have issues with Oracle. Why not bless an alt-Java and give developers a clear signal. The end game should be Kotlin or Xtend or ? -> Dalvik/ART. Cut out Java.

I totally agree with the original poster. I picked up Java in the mid-90's for server-side dev. Grew to loathe it.

When Google announced an open-source OS for mobile - I was so happy. But ... Java. Broke my heart. Don't Google have any taste. At least Google could bless an alt-Java Swift-ish alternative like Kotlin, Xtend, AnythingButJava.

Imo Android needs a Swift because: 1. Java is too verbose/tedious. Developers are looking for something richer/more expressive. 2. Oracle. Java is non-open.

Ultimately, the language that will become the Swift on Android is the language that makes it a core goal. This alt-Java could even be blessed by Google. Google could eventually cut Java out of the picture: Swift4Java -> Dalvik/ART.

Xtend, Kotlin and Scala are possibilities.

Kotlin has the Jetbrains Android Studio relationship going for it. Also compiles down to JS so could target Chrome/ChromeOS as well. Not as heavy as Scala - less of a learning curve. Xtend is good, and compiling to Java source could be an advantage. But Google do seem to be leaning towards Jetbrains rather than Eclipse.

Same here. I want to get away from Java and the JVM. Twenty years old and now owned by Oracle.

Yes. My understanding is that currently the Android ART toolchain is:

Java source -> Java byte code -> Dalvik byte code in apk -> install time compile to Oat file for execution in ART

Initially, just looking for something more expressive/succinct than Java that compiles down to Java byte code and is sympathetic to the Android frameworks. Not sure if there are any tools that compile down directly to dalvik and skip Java byte code entirely.

WinRT was not built on the CLR. MS didn't eat it's own dogfood. Divided story between Windows Phone and Windows 8.

MS should open source the CLR. Also, the new MRT - minimal native runtime.

True re Google's experiments. Given there's one guy in charge of Android and Chrome/OS developers could use a clearer direction. Preferably an alternative to Java (Kotlin?) which can also run on Chrome OS.

Given Google's relationship with Jetbrains for Android Studio how about Kotlin. Cut out Java entirely: Kotlin -> ART.

Kotlin seems approachable and modern. Also compiles down to JS.

Licences and a cut from app/content sales. The problem with the Linux desktop is the 'everything is free' mentality.

Adobe are in the position to do for Linux what Apple did for BSD/Darwin.

Adobe OS. Take the Linux kernel, systemd and command line tools. Put a great gui on top. With Creative Suite and Open Office. Steam for games. Be prescriptive with the hardware re drivers. No crapware/bloatware (though Adobe have been guilty of this). Give developers the ability to make money with apps/content via purchase, subscription or ads.

My only use of Java is for Android.

The Android VM - Dalvik - uses Dalvik not JVM byte code. Now ART - the new Android runtime replacing Dalvik - is native - no more byte code.

There's not much Java left apart from the (poor) syntax. Why doesn't Google bless one of the alt-Java's, like Kotlin, and cut out Java entirely.

Canonical are making a bet on the graphical subsystem re Mir/QT/QML/Oneclick to crack touch/mobile. Similar to Apple going all-in on Objective C/Cocoa(Touch).

But for the low level non-graphical parts of Ubuntu it makes a lot of sense to stick to standard Linux/Debian. At the terminal/sysadmin/command line level a standard setup is desirable.

"but to do so with a much more radical design."

Now this is interesting. Working on anything!