chexton

Awesome to see Jimmy! Well-deserved.

Hey HN, Chris from Vero[1] here.

We're building a newsletter/messaging product[1] that connects directly to SQL databases rather than storing user data ourselves. Think Mailchimp but sitting on top of SQL. Or Mode, Looker, etc. but for sending messages.

Vero Newsletters does not store user or activity data. This is important to us. We run queries inside your data warehouse, use query results to personalise your newsletters then forget the data.

The only information we maintain is endpoint (e.g. email address) subscription statuses: Vero is a giant “sieve” through which all messages pass to ensure unsubscribed endpoints never receive another message.

Why is this approach different?

- Invest in a data flywheel. If all your data is read from and written to a central data warehouse a flywheel is created. Investments in data aggregation and organization benefit all users and tools that leverage the central warehouse. This avoids the scenario where customer data is copied to several platforms, all siloed. We are actively working not to become another “system of record”.

- Save money. We don’t store data so have a different cost structure. This means we can charge per message rather than per subscriber. This is unusual for messaging / marketing products and means our pricing is much more cost-effective.

- Minimal data footprint. By not syncing we help you store private user data in fewer places. Data in less places is always a good thing and there are a growing number of tools that can provide secure access-as-needed. We also intend to build out a self-hosted version of our product: much more achievable under this model.

We launched our original product here on HN nine years ago[3]. Since then we’ve been squirrelled away quietly building a business. It’s been an interesting journey.

We think it’s time for the next major iteration in how marketing/CRM software is built.

We hope this data warehouse-first, data-minimal approach will resonate with the sorts of builders here on HN and would love to hear your thoughts, questions, concerns or ideas re: where we're going. Thank you!

[1] Our product: https://getvero.com/newsletters/ [3] Post on HN many years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4129228

Agree with Ned. I worked on an idea (two, even) before starting our current business and, although I learnt a lot from that experience, I don't think it was as much as I'd have learned spending time in a slightly larger, faster-moving, company.

I think the idea of getting real exposure sooner is underrated.

Incidentally, this is why your Startup Apprentice role is so interesting nedwin ;).

Having personally spoken with Emil a number of times, and being a user of Helpjuice, I think Emil is going to turn it into a great SaaS company. Nice work man.

Nice work on all the case studies Ian, Peter, Ilya and everyone at Segment.io (who have I forgotten ?!)

Keep it up!

Chris from Vero here - totally agree.

That's one of the big benefits of Vero and the other guys: a typical autoresponder (think Mailchimp) is hard to 'cancel' but it's easy to setup different flows with Vero depending on where a customer is in your product's lifecycle!

Chris from Vero here. This is the method we use. Essentially, setup a group mailbox that everyone can respond to.

I use chrish@getvero.com instead of chris@getvero.com to send the emails. 'chrish' goes to the entire team.

I remember seeing HelloFax do this way back in May 2012 (at least, as far as I can remember!) and it was very effective.

As an alumni I can safely say that Startmate is most certainly the main reason we are where we're at today. Australia's premier incubator, the mentorship from, and companies coming out of, Startmate are world class.

Get on board!

A great suggestion too!

Do you have any details on having used something like this yourself btilly?

Definitely a shorter time frame changes things. Trying to lengthen the time your customers stay with you sounds pretty irrelevant in your case (without knowing the ins and outs of your business).

Do you sell just the one course?

Some of these tactics could help you up-sell them on other offerings of yours.

Alternately focusing on getting more customers who abandon your funnel could be a quick win. See last week's post: http://blog.getvero.com/how-flightfox-doubled-their-remarket...

chris AT getvero.com if you want to go into real depth / just have a chat: I'd love to help and get you some more sales personally.

Always great to hear that we've been recommended by some friends!

Absolutely a relevant question. I was going to put a few disclaimer paragraphs at the top but took them out at the eleventh hour because this post was already pretty long.

For the sorts of tactics in this post I'd say you definitely need product/market fit and a steady stream of incoming customers. Depending on the price of your products, the product mix and your target market this could be 50, 500 or 5000 customers/potential customers. It's more likely to be the upper two, in this case as you need a good sample size to get see any change and know that it's statistically relevant.

After I get through this series of post (or in the meantime, if I get a chance) I'll put together a post that addresses exactly what you've asked for: what 3-5 lifecycle emails should you ABSOLUTELY be sending from the word go and at what point should you implement new strategies like those mentioned here.

It'd be my pleasure :). chris AT getvero.com if you ever want to get in touch and chat directly too.

I definitely thought this as I was writing these posts. There is a fair amount of quality analysis out there when it comes to LTV but not as much as you'd expect.

The truly quality information comes from thought leaders like Jason Cohen and you can understand why he (or anyone with a rigorous scientific approach to customer acquisition) does so well.

There is definitely lots of room for people to focus more heavily on LTV. It's an extremely interesting, complicated and powerful number.

Absolutely, there is a real lift in interest in this space right now.

It's a big market with lots of different segments so the future will definitely be interesting!

Thanks Patrick :).

Thanks for the kind words!

They are experimenting with a number of different campaigns and are of course continually A/B testing the one I mention in the post but this is a nice snapshot for a certain point in time!

Hopefully we can cover more of their tests in the future as it's great stuff.

I'll make sure they see this comment too, in case they have any feedback.

Drop me a line if you have any questions, chris AT getvero.com (same goes for everyone here, of course).

Definitely a common problem. Awesome to hear you have something setup though, that's a step ahead of most!

Tracking metrics properly would help you take it every further.

Intercom is (in my opinion) more closely related to a CRM. It's messaging features are quite powerful and give you the ability to do support and in-app messaging really easily.

In contrast, our focus is squarely on email right now. We make it easy to setup sophisticated campaigns, use custom HTML templates and do A/B testing - all the good stuff you'd expect when dealing with emails. On top of that we want to make it easier to send better campaigns by building out tools that really help you drive your conversions higher. Reporting is a big part of that, as is sharing real-world examples!

Would have loved to have helped!

You're not alone in cobbling together a solution, there are a ton of people in that bucket. We want to make Vero the tool that not only helps people save time building their own solutions but allows them to send better campaigns (i.e. better reporting and internal smarts).

The blog posts with examples are hopefully helpful even if you're not using our system!

Digg Digg (http://bufferapp.com/diggdigg) by the guys at Buffer.

Excuse my ignorance, what's the acronym DMP stand for?

100% agree, this was my only real complaint when it came to recommending Mixpanel, great to see full user history elegantly laid out!

I will also be curious to see this. It seems logical to think you'll be able to use this people data to segment in the future, I think it's a huge part of the value of this new feature.

Also, if you're interested in automating emails based on analytics you should checkout http://getvero.com (disclaimer: I'm a founder). We're working on a Mixpanel integration as I type so we should pick up right where Mixpanel leaves off :).

Thanks for the kind words.

I'll send you an email with some thoughts on integrating custom events and where we'd like to go with it!

I think you've raised some fine points here. eoghan has made some great points in responding.

In building a platform we're aware that there is a large piece around education and ensuring our customers use the system effectively and respectfully. It's in our interest that they do this as it means they'll see happier customers / better conversions and continue to find value in Vero.

Further to that I think there will always be a need for true customer support and one-to-one customer service depending on the situation. We've got a few features to help with this, one example is being able to see what emails your users have actually received in order to better understand their needs when talking to them one-on-one. We'll be adding more over time!

I had not seen your presentation but it's got a lot of really detailed, useful information. I will certainly revisit it.

Likewise, very interesting to see the same diagram come out of someone else's brain. 'Great minds think alike' as they say.

You hit the nail on the head...that is exactly why it was heading to "/".

Absolutely. Great posts from both yourself and eoghan, definitely worth a read for anyone interested in this area!

We actually agree with you. There is fine line between sending emails that are an annoyance and emails that hold value.

Email is an extremely effective tool for both marketing to and communicating with your users. Our aim is to make event-based emails as targeted and personal as possible. If a user receives an email pertinent to their personal situation it's much less likely to be received as an annoyance or spam.

You need to respect the inbox but that doesn't mean you can't use it at all!

One of the co-founders here. Thanks for putting your email down, you'll get an invite soon!

Just fixed the link on the header logo (did the same for the logo in the sidebar), good suggestion.