beachgeek

In my experience, some older folks (over 40) seem to have this weird self-negating issue where they seem to lose confidence in themselves. I've known some truly badass programmers, stuck in shitty positions but don't move because of their own fear. So I think when you say "older folks find it harder to get hired", it becomes a self perpetuating kind of mindset.

The reality is that industry is dying to find people that can get shit done, as Cletus said. It doesn't fucking matter what you look like, your age, whether you have testicles or an ovary or neither like Data from STTNG.

My last gig was with a giant software company. BigCo management announced that my product would be canned in mid-Jan, effective March 31. Within 2 weeks of their announcement I had 4 opportunities (not counting internal opportunities) of which I chose the best one, starting in 10 days.

I'm not doing anything special, but life is good :-)

Bull shit. Cletus is absolutely right. I'm a grumpy old Indian bastard in my mid-40s and I can find a job without breaking a sweat.

I'm sick and tired of these thinly-veiled-fascist stories that lay blame on Indians, Chinese, Arabs, Mexicans, Muslims, women, young people, martians etc, just because the dude that wrote the story is a big fat loser.

Learn new skills, keep networking, get with the program, learn to compete or deal with it. I'm no genius but my salary did not plateau at age 40.

Cool, I have my own stalker! And a grumpy old white man at that!!

Neggers can neg me if you want. But the truth is the world is getting browner, yellower and more female.

If you can't deal with this because you're a grumpy old white man, I suggest that instead of writing little passive-aggressive blog articles, you should really go fsck yourself.

> the USSR was tottering, India and China were struggling out from under the rotting hulks of, respectively, state socialism and Maoist lunacy, Major Medical was the merest notch on one’s paycheck, and young female office workers were wearing sneakers for their commute.

Cool. But this article was in no way racist or sexist, right?

:-)

Calm down. Just have your papers in order, be polite and courteous and you'll be fine.

Enjoy your trip!

JoshAg is right. The Bill of Rights applies to everyone.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...

If what you said is true and they made you sign that form it doesn't matter because the Constitution is still paramount and trumps your signature.

I think you are right, even though you got downvoted.

I'm not white. In fact I look like I could be the younger, nerdier brother of Mohamed Atta. I got off my green card and became a US citizen only in 2009 (After I was sure McCain wouldn't become President, and after I was certain they couldn't draft me :-)

My papers have always been in order, and I've never had a problem with any customs or border guards.

Probably. All of my information is from a conversation I had with a newly minted Wharton MBA circa 2007.

Also with just seeing how things operate in the Valley. I haven't seen McKinsey around a lot here though...which may be a good thing. Back in the tech bust years, they seemed to have just one piece of advice for every problem: outsource to India :-)

Yes and no. Some engineers make ~200K to 300K, just for hacking code or selling it. Yes its true :-)

Some MBAs make ~140K out of school. EG McKinsey is known to make you work your tail off for very little $ comparatively speaking. But thats a golden stamp: 4 years out of McKinsey and you could be a SVP at some dumbass BigCo in Silicon Valley making ~500K. Why the hell would you want to give it up and join/form a startup?

That or go work for Wall Street.

I think another issue could just be that Engineers aren't paid as much as MBAs. Which means we need to take that risk if we want to make the bucks.

Also its generally easier for us to take the risk. If you're an engineer making 120K its easier to take a paycut to 100k if you form a startup. If you're an MBA dude making 500K it just doesn't make sense to give up the Rolls etc and take a paycut to 100K.

I could never understand how Scott figured that a jihad against Microsoft was a viable business strategy.

Was there ever a time when they weren't arrogant?

I had a round of interviews go on for 9-12 months in 2004-2005 until I finally told the recruiter he could go fsck himself.

Earlier I had used dovecot+postfix for my personal email system. The advantages are that if you roll your own you can do whatever the heck you want.

Huge disadvantage (other than the fact that power, static IP etc are all your problem) is that a LOT of email providers will think you are spam.

Now I use SES for outgoing (for my app) and Gmail for incoming. Works a lot better. I remember reading that Gmail lets you write filters and what not as well, but I have not examined it in detail. I'm sure its do-able.

If you were loyal and decided to stick around, I would see that as an asset if I was a hiring manager.

A lot of times we're harder on ourselves than we should be. I'm happy to help out a fellow geezer (j/k). Drop me a line if you want.

I disagree with your statement about "start managing and playing the political game".

In my group at BigCo which just got canned, the overly political managers with no skills who ruined the product due to their gross incompetence are the ones who have no chance of finding another gig. I feel kind of bad for them, but I'm pretty sure I'll get over it quickly.

Its critical to keep your skills current.

I don't think that's what Chuck meant. I think you need to have a passion for the industry and show it in some way. If you're not passionate about tech then maybe you should switch to some other industry.

BTW Chuck I remember NIS+!

Good for your father! It isn't just tech, everyone in every industry needs to be nimble.

Even if you are a farmer, you might find you need to switch from growing say wheat to corn because market conditions changed.

My uncle was an engineering manager at a large multi-national. He's in his mid-50s, having worked there for over a decade.

In 2008 his company moved all their engineering to India. He stuck around to complete the transition, train the Indian devs etc, and took the package just as the recession started.

He had a helluva time finding a gig. But last I heard he went back to being a contract programmer (probably a pay cut) and he's working on a project on the side. Happy as can be.

Fascinating analysis. I am in my mid-40s. My group at BigCo had exactly the PM you describe: younger and better looking than anyone else in the group. but somewhat clueless :-(

I tried hard to help in a nice way, but looking back I'm pretty sure I came across as a pretty grumpy guy. But what do you do if the product is being flushed down the toilet? Its hard to sit back and say "OK its just a paycheck", unless you're waiting around for a green card, or you're too young to know any better.

I was right, because the product has been canned and myself along with it. I got lucky though because I have ~3 offers even before the layoff has been announced publicly.

To summarize for us middle-aged/old farts I would say: 1. Keep that network going. 2. Keep your skills up to date. 3. Transition into a customer-facing role if you can because there is no better way to figure out where the market is headed.

Moving forward I'm not going to worry about seeming grumpy, patronizing etc. Its better to be the old jerk who complained about a bad product than the cynic who just sat around collecting their paycheck.

Funny. The other guy is right though, its generally when things seem like they're really fscked that they change.

Maybe because desperation forces people to think differently? I don't know, but its worked for me.

Hahaha. Very funny man. LOLCATZ, Cheezburger Catz!

You know I meant "United States" when I said "please don't start another war".

We have a big difference in the way we think. I think if someone CHOOSES to work in a factory under semi-inhumane conditions so their children can have better lives, they are fucking heroes.

You think they are victims. Your Western brothers (including the clown who got his post deleted) think they are somehow less than them.

Whatever. Lets check back in 20 years,

OK. Economic pressure is something I can agree with. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

The rest of the world (and those of us who deal with it) begs you not to start any more wars.

>> When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change.

> You mean like the group that threatened suicide? Or the outrage over that Sanlu milk powder?

Like I said, when it gets too much, they'll demand and get change. Its not our problem.

>> In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on terror.

> I don't know why you're comparing bad PR to starting a war. You appear to have a very different idea of "pressure" than I do.

My point is we don't have a lot of moral authority anymore. Everyone remembers that we started a war under false pretenses. And that we killed 100s of thousands of Iraqis in the process of bringing them "democracy". Our own jihad for democracy.

It isn't just bad PR. You said we should "pressure" China to force their factories to provide better working conditions. Why should they?

Or were you implying that we should invade China as well? Is that your idea of "pressure"?

When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change. Who are we to force change down their throats?

In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on terror. We didn't listen to anyone including our closest allies. Why would China or anyone else give a shit about what we have to say now?

Why was rdouble's original post deleted? At least he was honest even if he was being racist.

I got tired of seeing notices to "contact your senator" on Wikipedia/Craigslist etc and sent a note to Senator Feinstein. To my surprise someone from her office actually responded. My response was pretty similar to Joel's.

Its easy to kvetch on your favorite Internet forum, but if you get things started your Congressional reps will listen.

This is way easier than cold-calling a customer!

Good for your great-grandparents. I've had white co-workers who took me to the textile mills where their grandparents worked in the Boston area, in abysmal conditions by today's standards. They've been long shut down and turned into office buildings.

There are no property rights in China as we understand them. Farmers grow stuff on "their" land, but get to keep their produce. They're actually pretty productive.

OK, what do you propose as the solution then?

If you read the article none of the executives quoted directly mention how cheap Chinese labor is. They talk about how quickly they can "scale up or down." There are only 2 countries where you can scale up your semi-skilled work force rapidly, and the other country hasn't started ramping up for manufacturing just yet.

Regarding your comment about suicide, China for various reasons has a rather high suicide rate. Its not clear to me if the suicide rate amongst FoxConn workers is just a symptom of their society or something really bad about FoxConn itself.

That's right. Assuming you're American, its exactly what your grandparents or great grandparents might have done in the late 1800s or early 1900s when they got off the farm.

When the Chinese people have had enough of their working conditions, they'll change things themselves.