_johnny

> they're print designers who dabble in the web, amateurs

They're print designers but definitely not amateurs.

In the end, what really matters is that the client receives very high quality work and it is cost effective for the company. I understand that not every company works this way, but I have worked for and know some that do exactly this.

I don't really want to discuss it anymore, I feel we're repeating the same arguments over and over.

> If you can't build me a complete cross browser HTML template, a skin, for a website, you aren't a web designer.

If you've found such people - great. In places I've worked it was different. And designers did exceptionally beautiful things which I really appreciate. I'm proud that I've worked with them, even if they left some mess to be cleaned.

There is some knowledge and experience needed in dealing with IE6, having CSS well organized, images optimized, adding even light JavaScript.

If I was hiring (I do not), I'd totally prefer to have two people who can together build something great, than look for one person and receive worse results.

And I'd prefer my people to do what they do best. The skillset required in designing rich graphics is different than coding.

Sorry to be shocking :)

I defend them because they're paid to do beautiful work and lack of layer names was never really an issue for me. Maybe just a couple of times. If the mess they left would be too big for me, then I'd complain. As long as I can deal with it, it's their decision whether they name layers or not. I definitely don't need every layer to have a name.

Totally agree with you, it was the same in places I've worked.

> not much consistency to your logic here

It is logical, because there are often hundreds of layers and presumably even more during the design process. Naming each one is a lot of work.

There are much less files in the end so it's totally different.

It's different than code. First of all, if the designer gets the job done without renaming layers, then it's his business. (In my experience, a lot of them don't need to name layers). Unless he hands over the design to someone else. I'm not sure how often it happens. Code is very often handed to different people. I doubt graphics need the same level of maintainability.

But anyway, that's a thing between designers, and we're talking about designer vs. developers.

The other difference is that in Photoshop you can easily find layer by using Move tool and CMD+clicking on the picture. And you can find text layers with Text tool.

OK, you (and other commenters) are right. It was an overstatement. I agree with your last paragraph.

But then such designer is not a target for this "Manifesto".

BTW, I see value in having one person create designs as HTML files, but I also know a lot of designers who create beautiful, graphics-rich designs and don't know much about code. I suppose it's much harder to find people who can do both as good as separate people.

I'm a frontend developer and I think some of these expectations make little sense. Giving a name to every layer is a lot of work and I don't care about it that much. I'll do my work with layers like "Layer 0 copy copy" as long as they're grouped. Having designer rename all the layers is a lot of work that would be better spent creatively. (Does your boss want to pay the designer for it?)

Another example: "#34 Be familiar with browser compatibility" - this is just your, developer's job. I cannot imagine expecting a designer to know about IE6 limitations (and tons of hacks and techniques to overcome them).

That said, I agree with many points, like naming files properly (which costs almost nothing) or careful use of blending modes (which are a lot of pain for the developer). Or careful use of gradients, especially over repeating patterns (#22).

Interesting. We've just had a discussion in our team about moving as much as possible to the client becasue... developers enjoy writing CoffeeScript!