ClawsOnPaws

It has a pretty profound impact on me, since the only way I can use a computer is using a screen reader, which works primarily using a keyboard. It can read things under the mouse, but it is not at all a comfortable way of working.

As a screen reader user, Apple does have a first party screen reader, VoiceOver, and does indeed not let you run a third party one. In fact, it does not work well even on the more open MacOS. So essentially it's VoiceOver or nothing. Luckily, especially on iOS, VoiceOver mostly works well.

I'm in a similar position to the OP, unemployed for about 10 months, with tons and tons of applications sent both remote and local, and yeah not sure where this is gonna go or what I'm supposed to do. Also disabled, my eyes don't work so that automatically removes many, many non-software jobs I'd otherwise do from the equation.

Don't even really have anything else to say other than that, but maybe commenting it somewhere helps someone else realize they're not alone. I don't know how that helps you or me, but that's what I got. Maybe there's still something for us somewhere, but it is very difficult to stay motivated, and I don't have an answer.

I am blind, and I could imagine several usecases which would make my life a lot easier by using glasses like this. But because of their reputation I will most likely never use them, and especially not in public. I'm already afraid enough people will think I'm recording them when I use my phone to get info about what's around me, definitely don't need to get punched in the face for wearing meta on my face.

Edit: Not that I would want Meta to get all that data anyway. But even if glasses exist which are more privacy conscious, I think Meta and Google Glass thoroughly ruined the reputation of any kind of wearable like this.

I absolutely LOVE! Voice Vista. It is an amazing bit of software. I wasn't able to use SoundScape when it first came out because it was never made available in my region, but VV is, and I would never want to miss it anymore when traveling. I love it. A lot.

It is just random bugs. Switching punctuation schemes. The terminal doesn't read very well, VoiceOver loves to say "not responding" in Safari and locks up, live regions don't always read correctly, quick nav (basically automatically holding down the voiceover modifier so you can more quickly use navigate through the screen) adds random delay to each key press, it's just lots and lots and lots of small issues like this that compound. This is just a small list of them. None of them are a huge problem by itself, but combined they do make things frustrating sometimes. And then of course the ability to script badly behaving, or completely inaccessible, apps is just missing, so you can't fix apps even if you knew how to. And of course VoiceOver on the Mac is all you get. So if you don't like it, tough luck. You won't ever get a real alternative that can access what VoiceOver can.

Blind person using Apple products here, and at least for phones, I agree. I wouldn't say it's exclusively because of iPhone, but a large part of my independence is definitely it. There have been problems, bugs that go unfixed for years, MacOS VoiceOver is quite a disaster even though I do still use and enjoy the platform overall, and anything worth using can be criticized I think. But iOS has so many features built in that help me every single day. VoiceOver, but also all of the features utilizing vision like door detection, OCR, etc. they're in the magnifier as well so you don't need VoiceOver enabled to play with them, and I think a number of them also require a lidar sensor?

Anyway, my phone is such an important companion wherever I go that I keep several magsafe batteries on me whenever I leave the house for a significant time. It has made an absolutely huge difference in confidence. It is definitely one of the single most important assistive tech devices I have together with my computer.

Not to mention that this seems to completely ignore all the things that we might use computers for. Browsing websites is only one of the things I do. Many of the things I do I think would be extraordinarily clunky through natural language. Also I just do not feel comfortable talking to my computer out loud, especially when I'm anywhere with other people around. Or I don't know... playing games with friends on voice chat. It seems to be common for people to assume that a fix is very easy and simple. LLM's, OCR for screen readers, etc. If it really was as simple as just slapping OCR on everything, it would already have happened. Also I definitely like some privacy and would prefer my computing not to happen entirely through OpenAI, Anthropic or Google, and whether someone can use computers well or not, we shouldn't force them to do that exact thing. At least in my opinion. And that doesn't even go into the costs associated with all of that LLM usage.

You are correct. At least in my case, more synthetic voices like Eloquence are easier to understand at high speeds especially because of their 'formulaic' nature. You don't listen to each individual phoneme or letter, you listen more for groups of syllables, tone, etc. The more unpredictable the text to speech, the harder this is. Also, performance is another big point. If you have large bits of silence at the beginning of the audio, or slow attacks, then the responsiveness will suffer, whether that's because of the actual audio itself, or the generation time.

Some of this is surely ssubjective, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only screen reader user with these opinions.

And sadly it is also not accessible to screen readers. VS Code for all its flaws is really, really good for screen reader accessibility. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's not only one of the most accessible code editors we have, but one of the most accessible electron apps overall. So losing it to this Microsoft stuff would be a huge deal to anyone who relies on screen reader or accessibility tools. :(

you are correct. This makes text almost completely unreadable using screen readers.

Just as a quick datapoint here in case people get worried; yes, it is absolutely possible to program as a blind person, even without language models. Obviously you won't be using your eyes for it, but we have tried and tested tools that help and work. And at the end of the day, someone's going to have to review the code that gets written, so either way, you're not going to get around learning those tools.

Source: Am a blind person coding for many years before language models existed.

The core thing here is the "I'm sorry you feel this way". This immediately deflects all sense of wrong-doing from the people actually doing wrong to the people feeling hurt. There are so many other ways to phrase this that are either more neutral or even acknowledging of some kind of mistake being made that's not on the volunteer's side, but that's not what's happening here. Essentially this means "We did the right thing and now we need to figure out how to make you understand this", not "Something went wrong and we need to figure out how to come to an understanding which might include us having done something wrong".

Heh, that roadmap is also not accessible to screen readers, at least on FireFox. That's unfortunate. But I understand it's a big undertaking with little reward for most people. I do think there are UI libraries with AccessKit integration, egui I believe?

Ah well. I'll check back on it every now and then either way.

I'd love to test this, however it seems to not be accessible with screen readers. I assume this is because of the GUI library not supporting accessibility. I found an open issue about this on the Iced GitHub where in 2024 it was mentioned that the version after next should support it, and the last comment was in february of this year (https://github.com/iced-rs/iced/issues/552)

I bookmarked this so hopefully once that effort gets further along I can give it a try!

I figured I'd leave this comment so that some folks can see that there are real people even on HN who require these features and that accessibility work is always appreciated. We definitely exist :)

I feel the same way. It also appears to be a lot more difficult to actually find jobs, though that's probably just the general state of the job market and less specifically AI related. All of it is thoroughly discouraging, demotivating, and every week this goes on the less I want to do it. So for me as well it might be time to try to look beyond software, which will also be difficult since software is what I've done for all my life, and everything else I can do I don't have any formal qualifications for, even if I am confident I have the relevant skills.

It's not even just that. Every single thing in tech right now seems to be AI this, AI that, and AI is great and all but I'm just so tired. So very tired. Somehow even despite the tools being impressive and getting more impressive by the day, I just can't find it in me to be excited about it all. Maybe it's just burnout I'm not sure, but it definitely feels like a struggle.

I keep coming to the same conclusion, which basically is: if I had an LLM write it for me, I just don't care about it. There are 2 projects out of the maybe 50 or so that are LLM generated, and even for those two I cared enough to make changes myself without an LLM. The rest just sit there because one day I thought huh wouldn't it be neat if, and then realized actually I cared more about having that thought than having the result of that thought. Then you end up fighting with different models and implementation details and then it messes up something and you go back and forth about how you actually want it to work, and somehow this is so much more draining and exhausting than just getting the work done manually with some slight completion help perhaps, maybe a little bit of boilerplate fill-in. And yes, this is after writing extensive design docs, then having some reasoning LLM figure out the tasks that need to be completed, then having some models talk back and forth about what needs to happen and while it's happening, and then I spent a whole lot of money on what exactly? Questionably working software that kinda sorta does what I wanted it to do? If I have a clear idea, or an existing codebase, if I end up guiding it along, agents and stuff are pretty cool I guess. But vibe coding? Maybe I'm in the minority here but as soon as it's a non trivial app, not just a random small script or bespoke app kind of deal, it's not fun, I often don't get the results I actually wanted out of it even if I tried to be as specific as I wanted with my prompting and design docs and example data and all that, it's expensive, code is still messy as heck, and at the end I feel like I just spent a whole lot of time actually literally arguing with my computer. Why would I want to do that?

Since this is only available for mac, couldn't this fairly easily be solved with shortcuts?

Not available in my region, apparently.

If those foxes were to spontaneously combust, then Google would have a Firefox problem.

Fellow blind person here, adding my own anecdote. I click and echolocate. I have two different kinds of clicks. A soft click for very immediate surrounding which I can do rapidly if I need to, and a loud click for figuring out large spaces which I don't use very often for relatively obvious reasons. They're quite helpful for me and especially in new unfamiliar spaces it's almost a reflex that happens on its own unless I consciously try to stop it for social reasons. Just to add another datapoint. What works for one might not work for another, so there's a lot of trial and error involved in figuring out what works and what doesn't. This can be very frustrating sometimes but sympathy will go a long way.

Something I wanted to add, maybe this thread in particular isn't the best place for this but in general, I'm very lucky that my parents did not prevent me from doing things that others may have. For example, I climbed trees, rode a bike, and generally tried to do all of the things my sighted peers were doing. Naturally there were accidents, but not preventing me from doing those things, not preventing me from learning my limits, learning my balance and physical control, getting hurt and getting back up, I believe were absolutely vital to making me the person I am today. I imagine as a parent this can be very stressful or worrying, but I honestly do not believe I would be as independent now if I wasn't allowed to do those things back then. So unless it is absolutely certain that this is something that they will not be able to do at all, maybe consider letting them try it. It will absolutely help confidence, self worth and skills for later independence that are very, very, very badly needed and very easily missed. I'm not a parent however, so of course take this with a grain of salt. My experience may be slightly biased here.

I would have thought that would be Lua, not Elixir?

I had the opportunity to pet a cheetah last year, and I think that is one of those things that will stay with me for the rest of my life even if I never get another chance. The cheek rubs, the purrs, just like my cats would do. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. Yes, I went straight to the cheetah page too. They're awesome! I never much thought about them until that day, but now it's a fascination.

I'm glad that it doesn't. A lot of us use these voices as an accessibility tool in our screen readers. They need to perform well and be understandable at very high rate, and they need to be very responsive. ESpeak is one of the most responsive speech synths out there, so for a screen reader this means key press to speech output is extremely low. Adding AI would just make this a lot slower and unpredictable, and unusable for daily work, at least right now. This is anecdotal, but part of what makes a synth work well at high speech rates is predictability. I know how a speech synth is going to say something exactly. This let's me put more focus on the thing I'm doing rather than trying to decipher what the synth is saying. Neural TTS always has differences in how they say a thing, and at times, those differences can be large enough to trip me up. Then I'm focusing on the speech again and not what I'm doing. But ESpeak is very predictable, so I can let my brain do the pattern matching and focus actively on something else.

I used to bring up accessibility concerns quite a lot on HN. I have stopped however, because it is always the same story. It doesn't seem to matter how nice I am about it, or how accommodating I am towards people just hacking. I never want to stop people's creative spirit. Ever. But I'm one of those people who uses a screen reader. If your app does not work with them, it will not work for me. The amount of weirdly hostile responses I get really puts me off commenting here, so I just don't do it anymore. That doesn't make the issue go away, but it also just does not help. This isn't entirely unique to HN. It is very easy to dismiss accessibility concerns if you're not affected by them, or don't have anyone close that is. I try not to take it personally, but when many people chime in with comments like it's OK that you can't use this app, you're a minority, your burdens aren't anybody elses, and don't listen to them and go make a cool thing without regard, (not an exaggeration it's all in my comment history) it's a bit hard not to be put off by it. If I was able to change one or two minds with my little comments, then I'm very happy about that because maybe it means I get to use your next cool app too. I'm just not going to look for it here, and if I find an accessibility flaw, HN will definitely not be where I comment about it. I've gotten some genuinely good responses too. Some of you also tried to defend my point of view. Like Sam. And I'm very grateful for that. Sadly it's the same fight every single time, and I'm a little bit exhausted by it.

doesn't npm create do this for you?

Like I can do `npm create vue` and I get a relatively nice and functioning Vue setup with most of the config already done. I agree it's a lot of boilerplate and random shenanigans, but also the apps we make for the web are more than they were. And you can absolutely write JS without all the tools, even with ESModules. But we don't do that much because turns out those tools actually do something. Do they do it in the cleanest way? No. Things could always be better. But they do it.

Sure. And I think it's based on a bunch of factors coming together, voice being one of them. I don't know how it works if you have sight left, but I can't imagine that attraction is the same for everyone there as well. It's probably a lot more nuanced than that.

I haven't gone blind, but I have been blind since birth. I think especially in the realm of technology, there's very little I can't do. I write code for my dayjob, I write different code for fun, and even do some audio engineering and music production.

I can also ride bikes. I have to know the area well of course, and be prepared for the inevitable accident, but I had a ton of fun doing it as a kid. Also climbing trees or participating in airsoft or laser tag matches.

I've also been able to drive a car. My family thought it would be cool to give me two practical driving lessons as a birthday present. So they called up a driving instructor and just asked. And it happened. Not on the street of course, but on a pretty big and open paved field that they generally use for their first motorcycle lessons.

I also travel. By myself. I have to do some prep work and I do have to ask for assistance a lot, but it's absolutely possible. Especially nowadays where we have phones that can do so much, from image recognition to GPS to video calls.

Naturally there are a lot of limitations. I can't just go out and explore a new place. Or if I have to travel somewhere for work and stay at a hotel I've never been at, getting around can be anxiety inducing and stressful. And of course I miss out on a lot of beautiful things. Like I can only imagine what nature looks like in all it's different forms. I can hear it, but I can't see it.

There's a lot more I could go into, but I just wanted to comment and give another little piece of anecdata. Of course, I imagine going blind later in life is a lot more terrifying than what I'm experiencing. Just like how I dread losing another one of my senses. I have no idea what I would do if I lost my hearing, even though I know there are deaf blind folks that do amazing things. We just do the best we can with what we have. And sometimes that turns out to be quite a lot of things.

yeah, it's probably the wrong video. Sorry. :( I know it's there though. This question came up and I know there was an answer for it.

I have a hard time deciding where in this thread to drop this link, but maybe here is a good spot. Andreas has a video about this topic, and I believe it's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAZvTFoSIFU