BobTheCoder

Hi,

I have similar feelings where I really don't do good things at my programming day job.

I see a lot of the evils of the world as systemic issues caused by capitalism and globalization. I've been chipping away at the seed of an alternative system https://opensocialism.com

Wanna help? :)

Hi,

This site details some ugly points about the world we live in. The goal is to convince people that there is a real and serious problem of exploitation and our work (particularly for IT people) supports it.

My hope is that there may be other like minded people who may be interested in spending their open source efforts on attacking this problem (or others like it eg. the environment). I'd rather work on these sort of projects in my spare time that have a greater purpose.

Want to help? https://github.com/scientific-defense-force/this-is-the-worl...

Nice one :)

Generally the logic of the work is:

1. Capitalism is poor at providing value to the majority (eg. globally the top 1% have more wealth than the bottom 99%) and ensuring the long term survival of the species (eg. protecting the environment). 2. However, until there is actually a viable alternative it is a moot point. People who criticize capitalism tend to be caught up in marxism which in reality is an old, overly simplistic and unstable system. 3. Use the open source model to build a compelling alternative to capitalism which can then be promoted.

I've completed a very alpha version which details the system reasonably well but I guess the current goal is to get help, which I have found difficult.

This is the repo https://github.com/open-socialism/open-socialism.github.io which I am doing the work on. I am on an associated gitter channel.

I am also doing work on another site to help convince people of the problem that I explain here https://github.com/open-socialism/open-socialism.github.io/i... (will put into github soon)

https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/ is a reasonable overview of the main points of the system.

Uh, anyway.. Any help is welcome in the form of feedback, github issues, PRs or whatever. No pressure :)

Hi,

I think both are highly valuable. But I agree that it is remarkable that we appear to be putting in little effort into trying to resolve our societal issues.

I think a new system is required. https://opensocialism.com is my very alpha initial version that I'm trying to iterate on. Are you interested in helping? :O

Cheers, hadn't seen the 'Veil of ignorance' concept before. Quite thought provoking.

Indeed I agree competition is necessary.

With the right system though competition between individuals is sufficient. Humans will try and get ahead to woo their spouse by whatever means are available. Having individuals compete for prestige and salary is enough to engage humans to strive for excellence.

Group competition doesn't relate to this aspect though. In a one group system individuals incentivized by individual reward won't be lazy or they lose out so group competition is not necessary.

For example, take a series of tribes in one area competing for resources. If all but one tribe die out due to disease, the individuals of that tribe won't suddenly become lazy. Why? Because they still need their personal acclaim to attract a mate and be successful.

In a multi group system (capitalism) there is no incentive for groups to compete (as in increase consumer value at the expense of profit) without competition, so yes in this system group competition is necessary. However, this attribute is not true of all systems.

It isn't so much the inequality itself is bad, but rather having distinct groups that compete with each other. (Group inequality is an inevitable outcome of this but not the root issue). Group competition is bad simply because it is less efficient if your goal is for the maximum good for all people.

Say you have a valley and two tribes in it. If they fight for control of the valley they are expending resources in that competition. If they merge into one tribe then all resources can be spent on the good of all people.

https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism/arguments/the-free-... goes into these negatives in regards to capitalism.

Of course then there is the argument of 'but you can't get everyone to work together in the one group!' but with modern technology I think this is a solvable problem.

What makes you believe this? Many people, myself included (and I write software), think software people would not be so great at this, because society isn't code. Social and emotional intelligence are critical.

I think there are in general 3 areas of information that are useful when contributing to the development of a societal system. Those being:

* Research (History / modern economic research)

* The Cutting Edge (Technology / modern business, project and team management / open source model)

* Domain Knowledge (Specific and detailed knowledge of a particular domain)

Software people have 2 of the 3. Plus they can collaborate easily using the open source model. I think wikipedia is proof that great things can be done without requiring "experts" with a great collaboration model.

I also think that a lot of economics is not relevant if you are going for a "no free enterprise" based system.

"We are great at being objective and not being caught up in the zealotry that is coupled with the classical systems of capitalism, communism etc."

With all due respect, are you kidding?

No one is perfect and we aren't free from bias. However, a big part of our jobs is choosing between options eg. technologies. We strive to diminish our egos and bias to make good choices. I think this attribute is very useful for the topic of societal systems which tends to be extremely polarizing (eg. https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/).

I agree people seem to be either "the free market solves all problems" or "capitalism is slavery and must be destroyed" (but don't focus on an actual viable alternative).

I'm chipping away on my own alternative which is a bit of a hybrid. Competition and inequality between individuals but not between groups within society.

https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people is a good intro for IT people.

Thanks. I did some research on that book. The 'economic calculation problem' seems to be the main point. I disagree that market forces are the only way to price goods and services. Why can't goods be priced that factor in the aspect of supply and demand, but also factor in the cost of offering those goods and services, both the immediate cost and the cost to the environment? It doesn't seem like an impossible problem, just that it takes deliberate effort by the state.

Note that in open socialism goods and services (including food, clothing etc.) are priced.

I generally agree that around 100 years ago when 'Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis' was written socialism was difficult to impossible. Now with modern technology I think that it is possible and has less problems than capitalism.

Is there some key flaw in socialism that you think prevents it from being viable?

Hi,

The classic issues that I am aware of are:

- Those in power have too much power and cannot be deposed democratically. As such they will assuredly become corrupt.

- 'from each according to their ability, to each according to their need' means that people aren't incentivized to strive and will be lazy and won't invent and innovate.

This page https://opensocialism.com/open-socialism covers these two points.

Are there other classical issues I am missing? Is there any literature you would recommend for this?

Thanks

You seemed unclear about open socialism and my motivations for posting so I tried to clarify. Anyway, let's keep chatting on github if you are keen.

Thanks for the feedback.

The essence of open socialism is to have a cooperative system without free enterprise. I think most people would accept that without resources expended due to competition and controlled wealth inequality, a cooperative system is more productive since everyone is working primarily on the good of society, not for their own personal gain. A large proportion of the surplus created can be reinvested into the good of society and not go to a small percentage of wealthy people where it often does more harm than good. I think on paper this type of system is much better for the majority and for long term progress.

The traditional (valid) criticism of such systems (eg. communism) is that the 'state' has too much power in these and those in control will become corrupt. Open socialism is quite focused on this key flaw and primarily addresses it by having society run much like an open source project, with all deliberation and operation done entirely in the open. Add to this the consensus seeking model to making corrupting decisions more difficult.

I posted it here hoping that people would give feedback or help if they are interested.

Cheers

Hi,

I created Open Socialism as a compelling alternative to democratic capitalism.

Democratic capitalism had some good years and achieved a lot, but it has started to be highly inequitable and exploitative. With modern technology and science (including agile and open source practices) we can create much more equitable and productive systems.

I created a tl;dr page for software industry people - https://opensocialism.com/tldr-for-software-people

I have written a moderate amount but it is more a starting point to be iterated upon. Any feedback or help is greatly appreciated.

https://github.com/open-socialism/open-socialism.github.io

Happy to answer any questions in the comments.

Thanks

Thank goodness. So tired of learning haskell = become a master of solving algorithms.

Code just looks ugly and Atom looks amazing out of the box. Possibly not the most important feature, but it does matter quite a bit I think.

Yeah I'm with you. Developers should have no problem dealing with whitespace and the result is you get a easier to read format.

Although admittedly I haven't had to work with YAML a lot but I have liked it when i've touched it.

I would add to other comments to watch out for people that believe their own bullshit.

My current company I could tell that when the team lead talked about it being Agile and using latest tech that he really believed it.

Because he believed it I joined, but now I realise he was willfully deluded. So don't forget to watch out for this and verify what their practices are with questions.

He is just like you and me (nerds) doing the best he can at a role he isn't very suited for (public speaking). When you consider this and he still doesn't try and palm this stuff off I think he is doing great.

I don't mind managed vms, I just wish they had the same pricing model as app engine.

I think the 'ethical' choice is some kind of a middle ground approach. It's true if everyone blocked all tracking and analytics the web could not exist as the largely free service that it does today. Websites also would struggle to improve their quality without the analytical data.

That's why I think the orbital strike option of block everything all the time is ultimately selfish. I think individuals should make some attempt to block ads/tracking that they think is itself immoral but not block what they consider fine.

For example, I don't block ads in google search results since they are unobtrusive and clearly marked as ads.

This! I guess the panels must be way cheaper or something. I would buy a 16:10 high quality expensive laptop in a second.

I don't think many people are saying that income inequality itself is the problem. It is the level of inequality and rate with which it is increasing that is the problem.

Also you can't say poverty is the only possible issue related to wealth distribution. Due to technology and globalization there is a tremendous amount of wealth. Exceedingly disproportionate distribution of it, far beyond effort/brilliance/whatever is unfair for the majority and IS a problem.

Comparatively good does not mean actually good.

A lot of these posts don't actually address the problem of hiring and filtering people. If you think whiteboard tests or logic puzzles are not effective, why do you think this and what is a better alternative?

I personally think they are ok, but should more be a means to test if the candidate can reason intelligently and it shouldn't matter much if the end answer they get is correct or not.

- DI doesn't add a lot of overhead. You don't really explain where it is EVIL, just that it is NOT STRICTLY NECESSARY ALL THE TIME.

- It handles complex cases such as dependency X should be a singleton, or inserting a layer of caching in front of dependency Y.

- It handles cases where dependency Z requires runtime logic to determine which implementation to use. You can do things like in PerformanceCriticalPackage use the HighPerformanceLogger and use some other logger else where. Want to switch these around, only need to touch the DI wiring logic.

- I find it keeps modules that use other modules "cleaner" without having any kind of dependency construction logic in them.

Design patterns are an option, not a requirement

Using in DI is a design pattern and I agree all usage of design patterns need to be justified. However not using DI and manually creating dependencies is ALSO a design pattern! You need to justify using either, or something different.

Of the available options, using DI is generally the safest bet, especially if you want consistency throughout an application, since it's likely you will want this power somewhere.