Show HN: Meadow Education: A beginner's guide to medical marijuana

https://getmeadow.com/education/how-is-marijuana-medicine

by rickharrison • 11 years ago

63 29 11 years ago

That's a very professional looking site and just goes to show how far medical marijuana has come ... in the US. As a UK citizen, I'm full of jealousy and saddened by the fact that we're probably further away from legalisation than ever. This petition [1] shows that there is at least some demand for a change in the law, but it seems unlikely to occur anytime soon with the current government in power.

phren0logy8• 11 years ago

Speaking as an MD, the evidence for medical marijuana is, uh, pretty thin. In fact, most people would decry the mismatch of research to marketing if it were a traditionally prescribed drug.

The barriers to meaningful research are coming down, but the research just isn't there yet. I suspect that therapeutic targets will emerge, but no amount of enthusiasm changes the fact that high-quality research hasn't happened yet. On the other hand, there are real problems associated with use, such as an increased risk of psychotic disorders, problems with concentration, etc.

I consider it part of my job to look at the evidence and remain free of bias, because most marketing is put together by those who stand to make a lot of money off of what they are selling. If I apply those same criteria I use for other drugs I prescribe to marijuana, the outlook is not so good.

Recreation marijuana, on the other hand, suffers from no such pretense. People use it to get high, and understand the risk. This, to me, seems like a much more honest system for the use most people want.

TelmoMenezes• 11 years ago

So research is too thin to assume any therapeutic use, but strong enough to claim real problems such as an increased risk of psychotic disorders and problems with concentration?

schwabacher• 11 years ago

It's different research, and yes.

phren0logy8• 11 years ago

Yes. Each individual paper covers a very narrow topic. For example, here's a recent paper - White matter fractional anisotropy over two time points in early onset schizophrenia and adolescent cannabis use disorder: A naturalistic diffusion tensor imaging study

This paper tells me nothing about headache relief, or nausea related to chemotherapy.

bryans3• 11 years ago

I'm finding it very difficult to understand your insistence that all of the currently published research[0] into the benefits of marijuana use is somehow "low quality", or invalid, or an advertisement, while simultaneously claiming that all of the research into the detriments are completely valid. That's pretty silly, and quite the opposite of "remaining free of bias."

If you had stopped at saying we should be wary of touting marijuana as this utopian drug with no downsides, I would completely agree with you. In fact, I don't need research to know that marijuana use can be detrimental to health, as I am susceptible to a very extreme form of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome[1], and have come uncomfortably close to being the first person to die directly from its use. This has led me to actively investigate the subject for years. Experiencing first-hand results which are identical to both positive and negative research, I can't help but question the "non-bias" in your approach to the topic.

Just because people exploit medical marijuana programs for the purpose of recreation, doesn't mean there aren't legitimate therapeutic benefits. The reason why those programs are being so heavily exploited, is that marijuana has long been subject to prohibition in many countries, despite wide acceptance (even among your peers) that it is no more harmful than other legal drugs. Prohibition, of course, has not stopped anyone from growing and smoking it, which is exactly why these medical programs get exploited: they can be. Why go through the hassle of growing and harvesting and curing, or risking fines and jail time, when you can make a trip to a doctor's office and lie about muscle pain?

Marijuana has also long been subject to many, many smear campaigns[2] from people with zero understanding of the drug. Which ought to tell you that there are likely just as many people pushing for negative research results as there are positive. But that doesn't mean all of the negative research is "low quality", or invalid, or an advertisement, just as it doesn't define the positive research. It just means there are a lot of ignorant and greedy people in the world, which I think we can both agree on.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/science/search?q=marijuana&restrict...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndro...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

phren0logy8• 11 years ago

I didn't say that all positive evidence is low quality, and I definitely didn't say that all negative evidence is high quality.

My logic works like this:

1. Cannabis has a number of plausibly pharmacologically active chemicals.

2. The effects these pharmacologically active chemicals have may help some things, and make other things worse. Both are almost certainly true, depending on which things we are talking about.

3. Many of the sources of information on this topic are biased, either by the anti-drug movement, which cannot abide any positive findings, and the pro-drug movement driven both by the counter-culture and more recently commercial interests.

4. In the face of both of these biases, US federal regulations has made study of therapeutic use next to impossible. Studies of those using voluntarily in the community, however, is still possible.

5. Of the studies that have been done, most focus on the negative impacts. Not all of these studies are good, but many of them are. In fact, a good number of them are excellent. I'm not saying it's a fair fight, but that is the state of the science in 2015.

6. Perhaps, in time, as the playing field is leveled and good randomized controlled trials with strong blinding can be conducted, high-quality evidence for cannabis as a legitimate therapy can happen. That has not yet happened.

7. Despite the absence of evidence, many people are making lots of money off of cannabis, and have a strong incentive to promote this message regardless of the evidence (or lack thereof).

8. As the benefits are mostly unknown, and the risks are quite well known (based on lots of poor research but also quite a bit of high quality research), I cannot recommend medical marijuana at this time.

9. This is a moving target. I will need to continue to follow research trends, and my recommendations will change based on available data.

I hope that is more explicit.

Also, I know it's ad hominem, but I would be remiss not to point out that linking to reddit and wikipedia is not nearly as strong as pointing to well-conducted primary literature sources. Also, take a look at the reddit link you posted. The ratio of negative outcomes of use to positive is very high.

throwput• 11 years ago

Disregarding the more outlandish claims, looking only at relatively undisputed use as an analgesic and/or sleep aid: how does marijuana compare to medications I can buy, not with a prescription, but straight off the supermarket shelves? I'm thinking mainly of aspirin, acetaminophen, ibuprofen, diphenhydramine, dextromethorphan...

Clearly there's less research one way or another, but do you have reason as an MD to believe it's less preferable to regular use of those substances?

kw713• 11 years ago

I think you're right that the research isn't up to par. But I also think there's a lot of empirical evidence to show that there are some use cases. I don't expect any scientist, chemist or doctor to recommend that I burn plant material and inhale the combustion products. But what about a hospice, end of life situation, to improve quality of life?

You mention psychotic disorders and concentration. I have PTSD and normally cannot concentrate on anything for more than a few minutes. The best my psych can do is something that makes the episodes less intense, but they still happen. I normally cannot sleep unless I am so exhausted from being awake for typically 30+ hours, and then I'm usually awoken by a terrible dream within a few hours. Guess how I cope? I smoke and my tolerance is such that I don't get high anymore, but I still receive other effects that are beneficial. I can concentrate and give attention to myself, my family, and my work. I can go to sleep and wake up at a normal time. Therefore, I think there's some demonstration here that mj can be therapeutic or helpful in at least some cases.

Fun fact: the medication I'm prescribed is new and was discovered empirically and its mechanism of action is unknown. I know I am risking cancer and two lungs full of thick tar by smoking. But for the medication, all they have is "we haven't seen it hurt anyone yet." I think maybe the community knows more about pot than this one.

Edit: Before I started smoking I was on Xanax, which I think carries a greater risk from daily use than smoking.

simoncion2• 11 years ago

I know I am risking cancer and two lungs full of thick tar by smoking.

1) Why not use a vaporizer?

2) AIUI, tar isn't a byproduct of marijuana combustion. (But I may very well be misinformed about this.)

mohawk• 11 years ago

Actually a lot of the data we have seen so far is quite good, here are some examples

Medical Marijuana for Treatment of Chronic Pain and Other Medical and Psychiatric Problems: A Clinical Review

https://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2338266

Cannabidiol: Pharmacology and potential therapeutic role in epilepsy and other neuropsychiatric disorders

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/epi.12631/full

phren0logy8• 11 years ago

The first article stalls out when I try to load it.

The from the second:

CBD has neuroprotective and antiinflammatory effects, and it appears to be well tolerated in humans, but small and methodologically limited studies of CBD in human epilepsy have been inconclusive. More recent anecdotal reports of high-ratio CBD:Δ9-THC medical marijuana have claimed efficacy, but studies were not controlled. CBD bears investigation in epilepsy and other neuropsychiatric disorders, including anxiety, schizophrenia, addiction, and neonatal hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy. However, we lack data from well-powered double-blind randomized, controlled studies on the efficacy of pure CBD for any disorder. Initial dose-tolerability and double-blind randomized, controlled studies focusing on target intractable epilepsy populations such as patients with Dravet and Lennox-Gastaut syndromes are being planned. Trials in other treatment-resistant epilepsies may also be warranted.

This is not good evidence.

I want to be clear: I'm hopeful about the potential, but so far the enthusiasm for marijuana is not yet supported.

agumonkey• 11 years ago

The papers on THC triggering the immune system in lungs (quicker cell death, etc) aren't strong enough ? That was the main reason I wanted to try vaporized THC (bringing back air intake/capacity, asthma).

beowulfey• 11 years ago

Very nice site. Slight typo under the CBN explanation tab -- you have "oxides", which is a noun; I believe you'd want "oxidizes" there.

Ivanov• 11 years ago

So, err, when are we gonna get medical MDMA and medical LCD?

eonw• 11 years ago

Washington State just did way with medical marijuana. At a marijuana industry convention I recently attended it seemed more and more are starting to turn their back on the current medical claims and just hoping to get in as a capitalist in the recreational market. Given the industry is getting more and more attention on the federal level, might be a good move for other states to just go recreational and skip the medical farce.

Show HN: Meadow Education: A beginner's guide to medical marijuana

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